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Cuchulain
May 15, 2007

My tiny godly CoX shall burn forever!

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Vecna did nothing wrong.

The guy removed his own head and sold it on the black market!

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Potsticker
Jan 13, 2006



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It's a universe where you can measure Good and Evil. They measured it. Necromancy was Evil.

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Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011



Muldoon

Like some guy posted, you’re using negative energy to mess with people’s souls. Durkon has one of the strongest souls in the setting, and he’s still a bit messed up from having been undead for a week. Plus the undead are leaky buggers, so you’re polluting wherever you’re keeping them with negative energy over time. You can do a lot of evil poo poo with enchantment spells, but they have no inherent lasting effects. If you charm a tribe of orcs so they’ll chat with you, or find some creative non-invasive use of the dominate spell, the target will be right as rain once the effect expires. Necromancy is inherently evil because it damages things by its nature, while enchantment is only as evil as the caster makes it.

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MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



Is creating flesh golems evil?

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Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011



Muldoon

Roy’s soul wasn’t affected by his body turning into a bone golem, and they’re fueled by elemental spirits rather than planar energy. I’d say it’s a neutral but rude act, one step below disintegrating a corpse.

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Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Remember when healing spells counted as necromancy, because it was the spell school of life energy manipulation in all it's functions, and not the bad school for bad people?

Yeah, good times.

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Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

Salve, Mater misericordiae

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Remember when healing spells counted as necromancy, but it was the spell school of life energy manipulation in all it's functions, and not the bad school for bad people?

Yeah, good times.

This was a stupid change, because if healing is just Conjuration focused on summoning positive energy then Necromancy should be a subschool of Conjuration as well. Or Healing should likewise be it's own school.

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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010
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Sufficiently Systematized magic is indistinguishable from Science you say.

I think D&D largely skewed in practicality towards Utilitarianism. On paper there is no ethical reason why summoning undead servants can be used to increase the amount of good or be argued that it is a tool of convenience. If you're dead for a sufficiently long enough time science doesn't give a poo poo about the sanctity of your burial and will exhume your remains for research purposes. At some point a corpse just becomes dust, minerals, and fertilizer and a wizard/necromancer is just merely delaying the corpse from rejoining the cycle of life in its 'natural' state in the cycle.

A skeleton that gets destroyed rejoins the cycle like it was never created just later down the road.

It's because of cultural, societal, folklore, and historical reasons necromancy is frowned on and tolerated at best and loathed and hunted at its worse. Dedicated necromancers turn to evil gradually, the path of well intentioned acts eventually due to coincidence or convenience or desperation leading to evil acts.

Can't find a corpse to raise as a servant? Well sibel kekilli porno videolari surely no one will miss a missing corpse from the graveyard...

-Breaking the law, eventually leads to being used to breaking the law; getting caught and punished for it leads to bitterness and victim blaming, how dare they! The Necromancer will say, it isn't his or her fault; it's the fault of them and their stupid little monkey brains who don't understand the bigger picture!

And so on and so forth until that person is now a lich or something and is routinely doing evil acts because of edgelord logic and being well past caring. Everything becomes about gratification.

That is probably what happens most of the time in settings where objectively so necromancy isn't inherently evil; but there's a stigma and it takes effort to allow yourself to be restrained by morals or ethics.

It's why you have the three orders in Dragonlance. The Black robes like Slytherine from Harry Potter in a better fleshed out universe merely don't give a poo poo. But they're not necessarily evil; just very very prone to doing them.

(The white robes can also be pricks even though they're typically supposed to be aiming to use magic for the good of others)

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W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010


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It's why you have the three orders in Dragonlance. The Black robes like Slytherine from Harry Potter in a better fleshed out universe merely don't give a poo poo. But they're not necessarily evil; just very very prone to doing them.

(The white robes can also be pricks even though they're typically supposed to be aiming to use magic for the good of others)

Par-Salian was a dumbass. You have a very ambitious young mage who lacks compassion due to being mistrusted and mistreated his whole life by pretty much everyone? Clearly, the best way to teach him compassion isn't to actually show him any, but to instead inflict what amounts to psychological torture on him by forcing him to spend the rest of his life watching everyone he meets wither and die before his eyes!

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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010
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Par-Salian was a dumbass. You have a very ambitious young mage who lacks compassion due to being mistrusted and mistreated his whole life by pretty much everyone? Clearly, the best way to teach him compassion isn't to actually show him any, but to instead inflict what amounts to psychological torture on him by forcing him to spend the rest of his life watching everyone he meets wither and die before his eyes!

That was definitely a bit of a question mark moment in context of the larger canon. I think initially Mages were supposed to be a lot more hardcore and mysterious as part of their low magic setting, and I think they've gradually retconned it to have been an error in judgement but at least gave Raistlin maybe subtle side powers.

I think thinking on it, what was supposed to have been the case might have been more of a plotline wherein Raistlin was given those eyes on the request of the Gods of Magic because he was supposed to be acting as an extension of their will and the eyes were supposed to keep him on that path but Tarkhisis got in the way in the end.

Another interesting thing about Dragonlance in general is apparently access to higher level spells (like I think above 5th or 6th level) all require a divine benefactor vouching for you.

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a kitten
Aug 5, 2006



Fallen Rib

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Another interesting thing about Dragonlance in general is apparently access to higher level spells (like I think above 5th or 6th level) all require a divine benefactor vouching for you.

If I remember my dragonlance guide book correctly, level 18 was the absolute max a character could reach as well. (Raistlin being the sole exception)

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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010
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If I remember my dragonlance guide book correctly, level 18 was the absolute max a character could reach as well. (Raistlin being the sole exception)

Well the actual source books for the campaign setting put no such limit (from reading them); I'd say 18 was a "soft" limit in that getting to there is insanely difficult as the appropriate CR encounters basically don't exist past a certain point and really the setting is meant to exhibit the feeling of being low magic with a larger focus on artifacts and magic items as being rare and special.


vvvv Yeah the 3.5e and 5e edition source books had no such limit and were just like any other D&D settings source books. A Dragonlance campaign mechanically can have epic characters because you still use the 5e spells and stuff but its not really in the spirit of things.

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a kitten
Aug 5, 2006



Fallen Rib

Googling a bit it looks like that was a Dragonlance Adventures thing which was 1st edition ad&d. Which, not coincidentally, is the only version I ever played and that was what seems like 200 years ago.

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NameHurtBrain
Jan 17, 2015


D&D isn't necessarily a setting though, and 'magic' can mean different things for different fantasy settings. Part of the fun of fantasy is that the rules can be malleable setting to setting, even though sometimes the 'rules' can be written lamely - IE the rules might decide the Paladin falls for lying about hiding the orphans from now uncontrolled evil Steve, in a hyperbolic example.

The concept of the helpful Necromancer is more of a concept of someone who is willing to do what society views as reprehensible for the greater good, and not necessarily in a Machiavellian sense. To make it work, you sort of need to approach the 'problems' of necromancy in a certain way, and if you had a DM who at every turn treated your use of necromancy as a cosmic sin, you're pretty much not going to be able to do it because someone in your collaborative story telling session is being a dick.

Instead, you have people bring up those problems "IT CORRUPTS THE ENVIRONMENT!" they say, the friendly necromancer tries to argue that wielded recklessly those forces can cause damage, and tries to argue that a wild fireball can be as destructive. He claims to be able to contain the corrupting energies of the magic, coming off a bit like someone in reality arguing for clean coal or whatever.

Enslaving the soul? He tries to argue that again, that's the easy way out. A fresh corpse has all the materials needed to be a useful worker or warrior, just needs the whole life thing, which is why it might be more efficient than just building a golem or whatever. His method may be projecting his own soul, or maybe he tries to enslave the soul of those who have done wrong.

I think it's important in both of these examples is that the character doesn't have to be *right*, it's interesting because they believe it. Someone argued above it's a gradual struggle with justifications and all that - a character before the fall or someone with enough willpower to resist the fall is fun to me, whether they are actually befouling the land or enslaving the souls of murderers is any different from dominating the murderer to save orphans.

Think I just approach these games weird. In a 3.5 game I DMed, I had a 4,000 year old Lich who undertook the the ritual because his soul's continued existence was needed to keep a great evil sealed away. There were paladins in the group, hardliner traditionalist players who viewed the lich as an abomination even though I implied he hadn't really done anything nefarious since then. "Here is thing you hate but thing is not being like you're used to it what do you do now" is something I like throwing at people I guess.

To my defense I wasn't going to make them fall* for not accepting the most boring Lich ever or even just outright trying to destroy him. To their faiths, the lich's destruction would be just, it would also just hasten the release of the same great evil they were trying to prevent in the first place.

*I'm generally of the philosophy that you don't fall the Paladin unless they do something wildly out of character, in which you probably ask the player 'what the gently caress are you doing' then before anything else.

Anyway, so Rich, he's probably okay and whatever I guess?

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dreadmojo
Oct 23, 2010



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Thinking out loud, I like the idea that a fall has to come from within, like a paladin needs to (consciously or subconsciously) choose to fall - matches up the player agency thing. Then the question from the DM is less 'did you tick the evilness boxes' and more 'how do you reconcile what you've done with your own motivating ideas'?

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W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010


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Thinking out loud, I like the idea that a fall has to come from within, like a paladin needs to (consciously or subconsciously) choose to fall - matches up the player agency thing. Then the question from the DM is less 'did you tick the evilness boxes' and more 'how do you reconcile what you've done with your own motivating ideas'?

Makes me think about new release teen books take on the concept.

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