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Cichlidae
Aug 12, 2005

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Wretched Harp

Billy Maize posted:

I would also be interested in seeing anything in Sim City you've laid out that you're proud of. I love the game and go through phases of playing and not playing, but I usually plan too big of areas and then I get bored zoning them how I want. Do you use the Network Addon Mod (NAM)?

I want SimCity 5 so badly Why, Maxis, why did you have to contract out your franchise to some imitator? I want it more complex, not simpler! I want to place ramps, customize interchanges, set lane widths and signal phasing... but I'm probably the only one who would appreciate the micromanagement. I've never heard of the NAM before. What does it allow you to do?

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DeusEx posted:

Not really, overall we have very lax laws considering traffic violations compared to the rest of the EU (except DUI/DWI). Tailgaiting will only be prosecuted if you were REALLY close or drive a truck. Obtaining driving licenses is indeed quite expensive though.

What do you think of inner city traffic regulation like in India, where there's basically no right of way, but you're generally guilty if you hit something in front of you. Though Indian traffic surely looks chaotic, it works amazingly well. There is also a city in the Netherlands were they done away with most traffic lights and signs, and people have to rely on the good'ol "left yields to right" and general common sense, and there have been fewer accidents.

"It works amazingly well" is kind of deceptive. I'm sure their accident rate is much higher than it is here. American roads have a much higher emphasis on safety than Indian or Chinese roads, and we sacrifice a lot of capacity and money to keep driver fatalities down. New England, by the way, does a great job of it! The safest four states to drive in are Massachusetts, New York, Rhode Island, and Connecticut. Hard to believe, eh?

As to the "take down all the extra signs" concept, that's called kristina halili sex video naked roads. I'm glad to see it's catching on in Europe. Frankly, I agree that we have too many signs, and it's true that accident rates drop significantly when people are forced to pay attention like that. What's preventing that in the USA is liability. If I don't put up that "school bus stop ahead" or intersection warning or curve warning sign, and someone rear-ends a bus or drives off the road, I could quite easily get sued. It's in my best interest to put up as many signs as possible, whether or not they're really warranted.

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Phone posted:

How do you feel about turning left on red arrows?

I've gotta say, that feels pretty weird on a gut level. While the country as a whole has a free homegrown sex videos, it offers a lot of leniency in what individual states can do. Some states have a flashing red or yellow arrow to indicate a permissive left turn, some (CT and RI included) have a green ball (we call them balls, to you it's a normal circular light), whereas a green arrow indicates protected movements, and the new draft MUTCD proposes even more schemes. Personally, I'm a fan of the green ball, but if I saw some evidence that another scheme was safer, I'd switch over in a heartbeat.

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Aug 12, 2005

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BadSamaritan posted:

Having grown up in Rhode Island, I've always wondered about the Pawtucket S-Curves- why would you do that to a highway? That and the Thurber's Avenue curve- the exit/interchange itself is nice, but the heavily banked, densely packed curve is something else. Really that whole corridor is messed up...

What I'm about to tell you is hearsay and absolutely must not be repeated, got it?
JUICY GOSSIP ALERT

Back when I-95 was designed in Rhode Island, it was necessary to knock down a few buildings. Sometimes, a building was important enough that the proposed alignment would have to be changed. In Pawtucket, I-95 was supposed to be straight and smooth. Unfortunately for future generations, a powerful politician was a frequenter of an establishment of ill repute slated to be demolished by the freeway. Of course, he wasn't keen on losing his hang-out.

I'm sure you can guess what happened, right?


While working at the TMC, it was a rare occurrence to actually see an accident happen in real time. Those S-curves, though... it was like clockwork. We had a camera right near the overpass there, and would catch an accident on film at least once a week. The camera itself, despite being behind guardrail and on an embankment, was demolished by errant vehicles every few months.

quote:

Why in general would you say New England's highways, especially Boston (oh god Boston) are like this? Is it because of the area's age/growth patterns? You mentioned in the OP it's our fault- what can we do to make it better?

This merits a post of its own, because you guys are teen girls in school not going to believe the amount of hosed-up stuff that happened in the 70s.

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Tambreet
Nov 28, 2006

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Cichlidae posted:


Here's a lesbian squirting in mouth stack, the most efficient and highest-capacity of all interchanges. Note that it only has one structure!

I was just reading about Chicago's sex scenes from californication, which is also a stack, but is also apparently the country's third-worst traffic bottleneck. So if a stack is already the highest capacity interchange, what do you do if it's still not enough? Spread everything out more?

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Billy Maize
Sep 22, 2008


Cichlidae posted:

I want SimCity 5 so badly Why, Maxis, why did you have to contract out your franchise to some imitator? I want it more complex, not simpler! I want to place ramps, customize interchanges, set lane widths and signal phasing... but I'm probably the only one who would appreciate the micromanagement. I've never heard of the NAM before. What does it allow you to do?

I'm having a hard time finding a good page to link you to (you can download it from sc4devotion.com on their LEX) but the NAM tries to better control the traffic and adds some new things such as light rail, new street textures and new intersections.

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Undeclared Eggplant posted:

I was just reading about Chicago's denise richards nude photo, which is also a stack, but is also apparently the country's third-worst traffic bottleneck. So if a stack is already the highest capacity interchange, what do you do if it's still not enough? Spread everything out more?

That's a turbine interchange, actually. A stack doesn't require cars to go significantly out of their way. It's a bit confusing sometimes because laypeople use "stack" to refer to any interchange with a lot of ramps.

I can see why it would be congested; 300,000 cars is an awful lot. We have about the same amount going through the 95/6/10 interchange in Providence, or the 84/91/6/44 interchange in Hartford, and it leads to some massive backups if things aren't designed perfectly.

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Mister Gopher posted:

How do you deal with the different design and funding inputs from a variety of sources (Fed/State/Local) for highways? Do you have a separate set of guidelines for each that you must do, or what?

Yes, that's how it works. Different kinds of roads are eligible for different funding sources. There are too many to list here, but basically, you'll get more federal money for something like building a busway or fixing safety problems on an interstate highway than you will for filling in potholes or building a new road. Connecticut gets 80-90% federal funding overall, which is much higher than most states.

Now obviously, if you're getting federal funds, you need to meet federal design standards. It's ok to skimp a little bit, but get too slack and the feds can withdraw funding. If you work for a town, getting state funding is pretty tough unless you've got connections or it has a major impact on a state road. Most town jobs I review are a mix of local and federal funding.

Town standards are stricter than state standards, overall. Providence, for example, requires granite curbing on its roads (which runs about $30/linear foot!).

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KOFT posted:

Have you ever come across three lane roundabouts? What do you think about them?

I have, sort of. It was this one:


Hoooooooly poo poo. My French boss drove through that thing blaring opera music like it was nothing, but I think I'd have broken down and cried if someone forced me to drive there. It's simple, sure, but the sheer number of cars surrounding you makes it tough to concentrate. I'm a good driver, too! If you stuck that in America, there'd be so many accidents that they'd have a junkyard in the middle to store that day's totaled cars.

I know three-lane roundabouts are smaller and calmer than that, and they're good for high-volume intersections, but I don't foresee them happening in the US anytime soon. Americans, me included, just aren't ready for something that requires them to use their brains while driving.

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Jarlaxle posted:

What's your expert traffic-engineer opinion on the city of Worcester, MA? Because as a driver who occasionally has to pass through there, I loving hate those roads. I don't know exactly what it is about them, but it's the only place in New England I've ever had trouble driving in. Most people I know feel the same way, and I'd like to know if there's any actual reasoning to back us up.

Oh god, I don't even want to touch Worcester. I stay away from it on principle. I'm so glad that the 146 expressway got finished, so even if I ever have to go there, I can stay off the local roads. (Also because it means Rhode Island will get a new interstate once I-190 takes over 146.) Since this is my thread, though...

Worcester's a total nightmare, traffic-wise. All of its roads were laid out before automobiles were around, a bunch of the intersections meet at weird angles, things are so built-up that there's no way to fix the roads, I'd be willing to bet that nothing in the city meets modern design standards. Oh well, I've seen worse. At least it's not East Longmeadow, right?

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voltron
Nov 26, 2000
Zapf gave me this account because he's a friend of the Indian-American people.

Hey Cichlidae, awesome thread!

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Billy Maize
Sep 22, 2008


Cichlidae posted:


A few suggested lines of inquiry, as I don't want this OP to get too long:

- How we decide where a road is needed, and how it should be built

- Why mass transit sucks in the USA


I figure I should actually ask some questions instead of talking about SimCity!
I assume mass transit sucks in the US so much because of low-density sprawl (and most people seem to think mass transit is only for poor people) but I would still like to see what you have to say.

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Lots of people posted:

Great thread!
Thanks a lot guys, it means a lot to me to have my first real thread be so enticing! Most people think that roads are pretty boring, but I hope you can see now that even engineers can be exciting once in a while.

voltron posted:

So to ask my question, why are the lights timed such that it’s green ahead (with no traffic) while I’m at the previous light waiting at a red light. Why do the lights turn red if the previous light just turned green to move the traffic along? Why is VDOT moving traffic along Atlantic Blvd like herds of sheep? It’s loving driving me insane.

It's pretty obvious the signals are coordinated, otherwise they wouldn't always line up the same day to day. My guess is that more traffic is going North than South, and the signals are coordinated so that northbound traffic doesn't have to stop. It's a tough decision for a traffic engineer to prioritize one direction at the expense of the other. My office has a sort of in-joke, that goes like this: "When in doubt, zero offset."

That means that all the lights on a road turn red or green at the same time. It's safer, since people won't race to make the next light, and they all have a good idea of what's going on. Better understanding of the road means safer driving. Unfortunately, it also means more delay, but you can't please everyone. In your case, I'm sure you'd much rather get stuck at 2 or 3 lights than every single one!

If VDOT hasn't acquiesced to your demands yet, chances are slim. I hate to tell you this, because I hate when people do it to me, but you CAN get it fixed if you send lots of letters to the higher-ups at the DOT. They don't care so much about delay, and they'll gladly force their engineers to do what the voting public says just to get you off their backs.

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voltron
Nov 26, 2000
Zapf gave me this account because he's a friend of the Indian-American people.

Cichlidae posted:

If VDOT hasn't acquiesced to your demands yet, chances are slim. I hate to tell you this, because I hate when people do it to me, but you CAN get it fixed if you send lots of letters to the higher-ups at the DOT. They don't care so much about delay, and they'll gladly force their engineers to do what the voting public says just to get you off their backs.

Haha, I pretty much gave up. If it's for safety, it's for safety. The locals definitely don't race down the street to make the green lights, because they know it'll turn red before they can make it. In that respect, I agree, it's safer. Thanks for the reply!

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Billy Maize posted:

I figure I should actually ask some questions instead of talking about SimCity!
I assume mass transit sucks in the US so much because of low-density sprawl (and most people seem to think mass transit is only for poor people) but I would still like to see what you have to say.

Yes, those are two very good reasons! Amtrak's done a decent job recently of bucking the "pauper's transport" mentality by providing only first-class and business-class on the Acela (I can't believe I'm actually praising Amtrak...), and ridership has been increasing massively.

As to the density problem, the northeast is blessed (blursed?) by its ancestry. We still have tight city centers and our suburbs aren't as extensive as they are out west, so mass transit still has a chance. New York, for example, is home to naked costa rica girls half of the train riders in the whole country! Phoenix's attempt to put in light rail, though, is pretty much doomed. Unless you put a streetcar stop in front of every driveway, who's going to walk in 115 degree heat to get on the tram and make 3 transfers as they cross the suburban wasteland, when they could take their air-conditioned car straight to work instead?

Don't get me wrong, light rail WILL reduce congestion and pollution, but it's not going to come anywhere near replacing automobiles as the main mode of transport. I'd be shocked if a dozen tram lines replaced 10% of Phoenix's car trips. Compare that to Washington DC - New York trips, 14% of which are currently made with our 100-year-old railroad network!

Edit: Thank god they used to put the CD key on the back of the jewel case. I have no clue where the original boxes or manuals are.

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voltron posted:

Haha, I pretty much gave up. If it's for safety, it's for safety. The locals definitely don't race down the street to make the green lights, because they know it'll turn red before they can make it. In that respect, I agree, it's safer. Thanks for the reply!

Thanks for not ruining some engineer's day

Here's a bad customer story for you guys! My department doesn't deal with complaints directly, but I've done some digging and found some pretty hilarious things, and we'll rarely get a misguided phone call from some concerned citizen. Here is one such event!

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porn star porn videos Note: This is an actual email, horrible syntax preserved, names removed. Let's hope it fits in one post.

Someone in serious need of help posted:

Dear {boss^3},

I hit the send button by mistake(save drafts button is right next to it).


I `ve seen evidence of a roadway/street improvement project about to take place on rt.83 in Vernon, between the I-84 overpass, to Dobson Road. The D.O.T. Web site showed that new traffic signals to be put in. Will this be span wire? I hope.

The Mast arms take away from Connecticut, just one dose it, but four at one intersection really destroys the look of CT., and the towns and cities, the rural, charm, and character of the town/area. Then it gets really bad when several intersections on the same road have this installed-Buckland Street in Manchester.

Something tells me that some want the signals on the far side of the intersection:

I have a suggestion on how to do this without the need for mast arms. I seen one of these in Glastonbury (close but not quite-Hebron,and New London Turnpike), but I first saw it in others states out west.

In California, for example they use stand a lone with their mast arms and the net result is a much higher visibility of the signals as there are at least 4 lights looking at you-one over the road, and three at the lower level. In some cases there are four at the lower level when there are traffic islands/medians in the middle-one light on each corner-the two that are to the left are moved to the island, and the left ones are in sync with the over head light(s-left turn signals). Where there is a left turn signal there is always at least one for the through, and right turning traffic-there are an average 4-5 signals at an intersection, in some cases 7 red lights looking right at you-how can you say you didn`t see the red light that you were stopped for running by the police, when you tell the officer, "I didn`t see it".

Still another arrangement of traffic signals is what I refer to as the off set. 4 poles, and 3 sections of wire are used, and they are placed on the far side of intersection of roadways with medians. The only difference is that two poles are placed on the medians, and the cable is strung for the corner pole to the poles in the median, then across the intersection to the pole on the other the median, then across to the other side. This has a more even an imprecise sense of harmonious or aesthetically-pleasing proportionality and balance; such that it reflects beauty or perfection. In short, no matter how many lights there are on the wire it looks even-weather it`s 1, or 5 signals.

I was completely unaware that such arrangements exist, as I have seen such on the web, but the signals are on a sign bridge/gantry

The route 72 extension project is close to what is call an expressway(again by California standards) on roads like that you will find 7 or more signals facing the driver-this is what I had to say regarding saving the freeway (US 7 IN CT.):

"So will somebody tell me that today that we are going backwards. Today they want us forced into trains, buses, use bicycles, walk, destroy the freeways, and the closest thing a freeway will be a surface arterial highway, or (by California standards) an expressway-aka a wannabe freeway. The CT. Route 72 extension project will be a surface arterial highway for apx. 3 miles. These highways are multilane with a median, with traffic lights, but much further apart, with no intersections in between,cross streets/side streets, except for right hand turns to and from, and or parkway style ramps, or freeway style ramps at major roads like other expressways, freeways, and BLVDS, yet these roads are backed up by a nearby freeway, or two".

These stand a lones are mounted on top of their own pole, apx. 10-12 above the ground, or sit on top of the pedestrian signal poles, and or side mounted to existing poles. They do not replace the pedestrian signals.

West Hartford, CT. dose not look like West Hartford any more due the large number of mast arms that have been installed, and therefore a portion of CT ceases to exists too. What would have worked here(regarding the old fashion look) is stand alones(one on each corner-this is case in Washington D.C.-no overhead wires, cables, and metal arms too, I have seen this in many of the suburbs of the St. Paul/Minneapolis MN.

Now, it got worse then that, the town of West Hartford has installed these at some 30 intersections in town which destroyed the looks of this town(for one they are huge).

So I wrote to the Governor, to request that she advocate for the truss arms to be installed, and discontinue the use of mast arms, and take down those that went up-even West Hartford:

{Crazy guy name and address}

Dear Governor Jodi M. Rell,

I`m a registered voter at the above address, and I have this to say, and complain about :

I beg, plea, and implore you to end the installation of the mast arm traffic light signal pole, and have the ones up, taken down,as they symbols of hate, oppression, and destruction of the family.

Instead advocate for installation of the truss arm when an all metal traffic light signal pole is to be used, span wire every place else.

Why, The State of Connecticut that I knew, love, and grew up is fast disappearing, and I WANT TO STOP THAT-NOW.

Yes, a while ago, I did contact the D.OT., and this is their reply:





Dear Mr. {Crazy}:

Your e-mail to {Head of the DOT} was forwarded to the Department's Division of Traffic Engineering for reply. This Office has corresponded with you on a number of occasions regarding your preference for span wire over mast arms for signal installations and your desire for slimmer mast arm designs if they must be used. Your feelings against the aesthetics of mast arms and your preference of span wire for traffic signals is understood.

As previously stated to you, in most instances the Department uses span wire in our design of traffic signals. Sometimes, for technical reasons, mast arms must be used. Some municipalities have also chosen mast arm signal designs due to local preferences. The Department, in practicing Context Sensitive Solutions, allows local government to participate in the design such that the local vision of the municipality is preserved.

As in previous e-mails, you are advocating the use of a truss type mast arm, specifically the type provided by the Mierbernd Manufacturing Company. The Department has provided a mast arm design that meets all the applicable standards (FHWA, AASHTO, CTDOT, etc.) which allows adherence to the use of the "low bid" process, as required by state law and in order to be eligible to take advantage of Federal funds. In addition, this design has met the expectations of local officials. As such, the Department is not looking to expend resources to determine if the Mierbernd mast arm product also meets the aforementioned standards. Should a Municipality or a contractor submit a request for the use of this type of truss mast arm instead of the Department's standard design, and could document that the proposed design meets all required standards, the Department would consider its use in a project.

Should you have any questions, you please contact {Boss^3}, of my office at {Contact info}.



{Boss^4}

...and this is what I sent the Mayor, AND other officials of WH-the bases of this letter to you.



{Crazy guy name and address}

Dear Editor,

This is what I sent to the Mayor of West Hartford

Dear Mayor Scott Slifka ,

Update: I have seen that more of those mast arms traffic light signal poles went up,
and while I was waiting for a bus at Bishop`s corner on N. Main street I saw those horrible things that were about to take the place of the span wire (family unit/design as I call it) these signals are yellow in color and still on the job-until...

...and I just cried, I just couldn`t hold it back, as this is very hart wrenching to see the family being destroyed-and I must ask-Dose West Hartford hate blacks, and other minorities that mush, for it seems that you do, cause after my first letter to you these weeds of hate sprouted up all over town.

Did it have to be done this way?

In East Hartford, at the intersection of Silver Lane and Roberts St./East Hartford BLVD there is a new span wire installation that has replaced the signals there with box set up, which uses those cameras supported by a short truss arm, and mast arms that support signs(that's the way to do it)

This is in response to the Street improvement project on Farmington Ave.

I just don`t understand why people want the old fashioned look done to their streets, and such, only to put up these horrible looking traffic light signal poles, it truly clashes with the old look.

IN SHORT IT JUST RUINED THE LOOK OF THE STREET

PLUS THIS ON West Hartford`s Main Street, they put up more of those grotest gasly,ugly looking traffic light poles, if you wanted me to shop at Blue Back Square, well that won`t be happing, instead I stayed on the bus and went to the Westfarms Mall.

This is in reference to the new traffic light MAST ARM that was just installed at Farmington Ave., and Trout Brook---THIS IS DOWN RIGHT HORRIBLE, GROTEST, AND NOT IN KEEPING WITH HISTORICAL CT/NEW ENGLAND, PLEASE REMOVE THIS, AND INSTALL EITHER A TRUSS ARM POLE, OR SPAN WIRE. Whom is it that chooses the design(I want to make a complaint)---what has been installed this intersection is horrible-mast arm type, replacing the span wire type that was there. Is this a part of Blue Black Square Project? the downtown area has the older ones(mastarms poles)-and are just as horrible-this new one is even worst, please no more with these types of traffic light poles. The span wire, on a diagonal setup is what I refer to as the family design/unit---it`s
what I grew up with as a ward of this state,and my hart just fell when I saw this today,as a part of the Connecticut that I know is slowly but surely being taken away---from me, and for me at least is just that, destroying the family unit). I explain why that is....

.... Traffic lights,and their supports---for me at least, it`s all about family-my family,and what I grew up with---This State of Connecticut. Traffic light poles: at one time truss arms were here,and are now completely gone and in their place mast arms. Span wire is the only one here in Hartford that is of Connecticut that I grew up with,and that this is still being used in many new installations too---like what I see.

I was a ward of this state of CT from the beginning on my life till l turned 18

I want to forever keep,and use the span wire installations as they say,and remind me of family,and my home---this state of Connecticut,and is what I grew up with,and this is why?

As early as my arrival in this world I was transported about by the CT`s Child Welfare Dept.(10-12 months before I became officially a ward of the State-of Connecticut), and was instilled in me upon my first sighting of traffic lights was this-family. The center traffic light (a four way)I referred to as the mother,and the other traffic lights her children,and this became forever etched in my mind--and I will never part with it. The span wire allows the lights to sway in the breeze that at times will sway in unison-like a family should,and other times they sway independently of each other-a true family unit will allow for the individual member to express him/her self for the benefit of both the member of the family,and the family unit as a whole.

To see an example of what I mean is to go to Hudson Street in Hartford,at these two intersections-Capital Avenue,and Hudson st.,and the intersection of Hudson St.,and Buckingham Street---excellent!

At night in low,or no light, the traffic lights seem to be suspended in the air with out wires---love this.

The traffic lights should be the exclusive residents of the(span) wire,and the (truss)arm, free of clutter of signs,cameras,when I look up to see the light,I shouldn't have to look for the light, the light should look for me---some of these mast arms are cluttered with signs,and cameras that they take from the most important thing up there---the traffic light.

The span wire, diagonally across a intersection conveys the family unit in its` strongest form,(best at all intersections except for factories, shopping centers,malls,and industrial parks, and the span wire box set up conveys the individual in its` strongest form(best for shopping centers,and industrial park,and factory entrances).

In short the span wire installation (for me)says family,and my home too. It hits me like a ton of bricks this past July, 2005, while I was waiting for the bus in front of the Plaza at Burr Corners in Manchester, CT. I`m looking at the traffic lights there supported by span wire diagonally across the intersection with Tolland Turnpike,and the entrance to Plaza at Burr Corners,and that's when it hits me---its` not just family for me the State of Connecticut, but home, my home, my home state Connecticut,and my hometown, Hartford, CT---the direction that I was facing in the early morning hours, just after sunrise, when that hits me,and hits me hard too.

I want to forever keep,and use the truss arm installations as they say,and remind me of family,and my home---this state of Connecticut,and is what I grew up with,and this is why?

The truss arm(all metal support system) is what I grew up with,and are very appealing to the eyes,as these have class, style, grace,elegance,clean lines,and look very sharp in the downtowns of CT cities. these are part the street scape,as the smaller versions of the truss arms are the truss arms that are used for street lights---it`s only natural.

To see what I`m trying to explain here is to go to New Haven`s downtown. The truss arm is best for downtown ares of Connecticut`s cities,and prominent places too.-anything/place that is of the state of Connecticut, i.e. entrance to State Police barracks, State correctional centers, State offices-except for the more popular ones, span wire is favored at entrances to Connecticut State parks,and forests, to keep it more rustic.

The mast arm traffic light support system(poles),and why I don`t like them;

(these are symbols of hatred, they are referred to as the hangman's arm, and worst then that.

When I see these, I see hate, and the destruction of the family-if the family goes-we`ve all had it.

These are anti family,and EXTREMELY ANTI FAMILY, AND VERY,VERY ANTI CONNECTICUT, convey images of hate,and oppression,plus they`re just plain ugly.

With the signal being hanged from the arm they show images of hate/hanging of the family, and of these too: traffic lights that are hung from the arm that are black in color shows hate ,and prejudice toward Blacks, signals that are yellow shows same towards Asians-(I`m Japanese, American),and traffic lights that are the D.OT. Green color shows same for the States-in this case, the State of Connecticut-my family/parents whom reared me up,and I`m very big on States rights-10th Amendment of the US Constitution.

On mast arms with the arm having an upward curve to it is a liken to a tree branch where the signal is hung to me me at least conveys images of hangings of blacks, with a black signal, Asians,with a yellow signal-again I`m Japanese, American, and with a D.O.T. Green signal my family, my parents the State of Connecticut-and I don`t like this at all.

...and that they are of other states, not CT, I left PA because of that.

On mast arms with curved arms or not, with the signal being rigidly attached to the arm conveys images of oppression,with blacks ,black signals, of Asians with a yellow signal-again I`m Japanese American, and with a D.O.T. Green signal oppression of the states,and their rights-my family/parents the State of Connecticut I see this oppression in those mast arms,and want these type of traffic light support system/poles done away with for these reasons.

The mast arm is also a very ugly looking thing too Really, do you need all of that material(metal) to support traffic lights that are made of plastic?, These are common in other states,and I don`t like em one bit, and to me at least are a very cold looking design,one of rigidness,isolation,and are very grotest,over bearing,very imposing(drowns out the traffic lights-even with the larger ones-that are used here)ghastly,and really do clutter the street scene-takes away from everything
that is round about it. I`m really praying that this design is not used else where--such as Albany
Avenue.(this and any other projects planned,or already underway in Hartford,or any place else for that matter).

In short the mast arm,and any variation thereof is anti CT, family design/looks,and conveys messages,and images of oppression,and hate towards family, Asians, and Blacks, and is not stately either---it`s of another state---not of The State of Connecticut.

Note: the color of the traffic light it self(the body/housing of the traffic light/signal)--- State of Connecticut D.O.T. Green,other green, yellow,and black, is NOT the problem here-never was,and never will be---for me at least--it`s the message/image that it(mast arms) may be sending.

I left PA. because of these mast arm poles,and that these poles take from CT. as when I see these poles, I don`t a CT. town, or city either---such as your town--West Hartford

Sincerely,

{Crazy guy}

PS:AS A REGISTERED VOTER AT THE ABOVE ADDRESS: IF MR OBAMA BECOMES PRESIDENT OBAMA, THIS WILL BE THE FIRST THING THAT I`LL WRITE TO HIM, AND DEMAND THEM TO BE REMOVED FORM THE STREETS AND HIGHWAYS OF CT-AT LEAST CT-FOR NOW---AND HE HAS BEEN SO NOTIFED OF THIS-LETTER MAILED ON 01/20/09-INAUGURATION DAY.

PS: II, I see that the updated exit 11 (I-84) is to keep it, but remove the stub freeway/bridges(one of my first thoughts was that design).

I had thought to extend the freeway from the end of the stub freeway, to a transistion road into Wasserman Way apx. at Nunnawauk Road, but I still say build the freeway-any chances of a super 2, or surface arterial on CT. 25`s ROW? From what I`ve been reading the current 25 can`t be widen(with a median strip, and four laning w/o one is a no go too.

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Aug 12, 2005

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Wretched Harp

Now that there's a lull in questions, let me tell you about Hartford. The city is filled with highway oddities, and looking at them with no context can be downright confusing.



That picture shows 16 places, average looking women naked all in the Hartford area, where you can still see evidence of missing freeways. I said earlier that traffic is so bad because of you, but really, it's because of your parents. NIMBY was the number one killer of freeways back in the 70s. What was the death toll? Check out this diagram from free xxx porn mpegs, my second-favorite source for Connecticut road details after my boss.



You see, we only managed to build about 1/3 of the freeways Hartford needed to thrive. Lack of access has stunted the city, and the freeways that were built are horribly mangled by planned connections to canceled roads.

By the way, the 16 locations shown in the first image all fit into about 1/4 of Kurumi's map. That's right, there's a lot more! If there's any interest, I'll go over the canceled freeways, one by one.

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Silver Falcon
Dec 5, 2005

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Cichlidae posted:

Thanks for not ruining some engineer's day

Here's a bad customer story for you guys! My department doesn't deal with complaints directly, but I've done some digging and found some pretty hilarious things, and we'll rarely get a misguided phone call from some concerned citizen. Here is one such event!

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Hooooooooly poo poo, that guy's nuts! Like... please lock me up in a rubber room and throw away the key nuts. I would not want to meet that guy on the street.

EDIT: ^^^^ Please talk about canceled freeways!

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Arafa
May 15, 2002
Look, a three-headed monkey.

I have lots of questions (I studied economics in school) but I'll try to restrain myself. I apologize if I accidentally ask something that's already been asked. (This thread is awesome, by the way.)

Given what you've said, do you agree with The Economist's assertion that the de facto speed limit in the US is 10 over? I've often heard cops say that if they stopped everyone going 10 over there'd be riots or something to that effect. Do you think the fact that most people speed most of the time reduces respect for road laws and/or police officers?

Why do some huge interchanges meet in big cities? Wouldn't it make far more sense to do those fairly distant from the city and just save the inside for local traffic?

What do you think of Beijing and its 6 ring roads? Is this an efficient design? Was it worth the massive amount of bulldozing and other nonsense to make them, especially the last two?

Do you ever work with economics graduates or professors? I've heard some of them take this kind of thing as contract work.

Why can't protected left turns be on a timer so that, during low traffic periods, they aren't in effect? I've read a lot about what you've said on the topic so far, but I'm still curious.

Why are automatic signal changers for ambulances/fire engines designed so poorly? Not only do they seem to skip a whole traffic signal cycle, sometimes it seems like it's more than one, or that it makes the red light cycle excessively long.

Is driving guided by inertia, conscious thought, or something else? I can never tell if people drive slow in the fast lane because they just happen to be in that lane/need to get over at some distant point or to consciously slow other traffic down. I've heard people say both.

And here is my $10,000 question. When stopped, why do some drivers leave gigantic spaces between themselves and the next car, even in tight left turn lanes and other very congested spaces? This has to be one of the worst and most avoidable forms of congestion. Yet I can never find any consistent reason why people do it. I've asked a lot of people and no one really seems to know why. Because of that, I think it must be some unconscious force, like an excessive desire for control or safety or something. Any thoughts?

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ZikiMike
Nov 9, 2007
10th enemy has the bomb.

Thanks for posting the Arc de Triomphe roundabout, I spent a fun evening just hanging out there and watching the craziness of the traffic, with the number of lanes seeming to change from 3 to 6 within seconds. Do you know why it is done in such a crazy way? I don't remember seeing any lane markings at all.

Have you heard of any road construction methods to reduce heat generation in cities? Sydney, Australia data shows that the city are is on average nearly 20 degrees Celsius warmer than it was 150 years ago due to urban heat, and I would think roads would be one place we could try to reduce urban heat, whether by different materials or some sort of paint covering. I have no idea on this though.

On Aus cities, have you come across Melbourne hate this part pussy they always seem to confuse visitors nicely.

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I'm not qualified to answer your other questions but...

Arafa posted:

And here is my $10,000 question. When stopped, why do some drivers leave gigantic spaces between themselves and the next car, even in tight left turn lanes and other very congested spaces? This has to be one of the worst and most avoidable forms of congestion. Yet I can never find any consistent reason why people do it. I've asked a lot of people and no one really seems to know why. Because of that, I think it must be some unconscious force, like an excessive desire for control or safety or something. Any thoughts?

I was under the impression that people do this so if someone slams into them from behind, they won't be crunched into the car in front of them.

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Aug 12, 2005

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Wretched Harp

Arafa posted:

I have lots of questions (I studied economics in school) but I'll try to restrain myself. I apologize if I accidentally ask something that's already been asked. (This thread is awesome, by the way.)

Given what you've said, do you agree with The Economist's assertion that the de facto speed limit in the US is 10 over? I've often heard cops say that if they stopped everyone going 10 over there'd be riots or something to that effect. Do you think the fact that most people speed most of the time reduces respect for road laws and/or police officers?

It's a bit of an understatement in some places (I've seen freeways signed at 25 mph), but 10 over is a good guideline. I don't think it diminishes respect for officers; I know I feel much more reasonable toward police when I don't get pulled over for driving 75 in a 65 mph zone. But respect for the road laws? Definitely. Speed limits are some of the most imposing signs out there, other than WRONG WAY and STOP, and people already don't stop.

quote:

Why do some huge interchanges meet in big cities? Wouldn't it make far more sense to do those fairly distant from the city and just save the inside for local traffic?

It's because most people want to get downtown, and the point of a freeway is to bring people as close to their destination as possible. Some cities use the model you're proposing; Paris is a good example. You see a lot more people using mass transit when it's available, but if it's not, the inner city will just rot from lack of patrons.

quote:

What do you think of Beijing and its 6 ring roads? Is this an efficient design? Was it worth the massive amount of bulldozing and other nonsense to make them, especially the last two?

I have a feeling that most public works projects in China are done more to impress people and provide jobs than to actually prepare for the future. It's certainly an imposing gesture to traffic engineers, because we realize that, no matter how many highways you build, they'll always end up packed. I'm not an international policy laureate, though, so I'll leave the final explanation to those who are

quote:

Do you ever work with economics graduates or professors? I've heard some of them take this kind of thing as contract work.

Nope, not directly. When we want a study done that analyzes the economic effects of building something, for example, we pay a contractor to do it for us. That sort of study doesn't happen often enough for the state to hire full-time staff.

quote:

Why can't protected left turns be on a timer so that, during low traffic periods, they aren't in effect? I've read a lot about what you've said on the topic so far, but I'm still curious.

I said before that, the more motorists know about the system, the safer they drive. That's a good general rule, but there are some cases where it can lead to trouble, and changing signal operation by time of the day is one of them.

A good analogy is if I had a road with a reversible lane. From 6 AM to noon, it goes northbound, and from noon to 6 PM it goes southbound. You've lived there for years, you know when it switches over. So when you get there at 11:58, even if it says the lane's closed, do you take it? Ask 1000 people, and at least one will answer yes. That's the guy we have to worry about. If people get too savvy about our timings, they'll learn to cheat the system. You'll hear more about that when I get around to discussing red lights!

quote:

Why are automatic signal changers for ambulances/fire engines designed so poorly? Not only do they seem to skip a whole traffic signal cycle, sometimes it seems like it's more than one, or that it makes the red light cycle excessively long.

It's to be as safe as possible. What you're talking about is carrie underwood nude fake pre-emption, and it works in many ways. Some systems use radio communications, some listen for sirens. The signal can't tell exactly how far away the fire truck or ambulance is, so it plays it safe. It's better to delay a few motorists by 30 seconds than to risk someone t-boning an ambulance because the light turned green too early.

Another interesting tidbit is that we can change which phase gets served after the pre-emption turns off. If the signal was just about to serve your phase, then gets pre-empted for 1 minute, then gets reset to the phase after yours, you're effectively waiting for about 3 cycles, which gets REALLY annoying. I can feel your pain.

quote:

Is driving guided by inertia, conscious thought, or something else? I can never tell if people drive slow in the fast lane because they just happen to be in that lane/need to get over at some distant point or to consciously slow other traffic down. I've heard people say both.

Once you find out, tell the hundreds of PhD students who are constantly trying to perfect the driver model. The one used in VISSIM assumes that drivers won't react to other cars unless they're within a certain threshold, and then they'll react more strongly the closer they get. How far they think ahead, though? It's different for every driver, every minute of every day.

quote:

And here is my $10,000 question. When stopped, why do some drivers leave gigantic spaces between themselves and the next car, even in tight left turn lanes and other very congested spaces? This has to be one of the worst and most avoidable forms of congestion. Yet I can never find any consistent reason why people do it. I've asked a lot of people and no one really seems to know why. Because of that, I think it must be some unconscious force, like an excessive desire for control or safety or something. Any thoughts?

Some people can't judge the lengths of their cars is one answer. Another is that we've learned (some of us the hard way) that cars can roll backward before going forward. I've heard of people who accidentally leave their cars in reverse gear and slam into someone. Davenport has another good idea up there. These are all subtle psychological problems, and I'd say most of them stem from distrust of other drivers.

Bit of courtney cox naked fakes traffic engineering know-how: Cars stopped in a queue take up 25 feet apiece, as a rule of thumb! Have a lane that's 200 feet long? That'll fit 8 cars.

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Aug 12, 2005

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ZikiMike posted:

Thanks for posting the Arc de Triomphe roundabout, I spent a fun evening just hanging out there and watching the craziness of the traffic, with the number of lanes seeming to change from 3 to 6 within seconds. Do you know why it is done in such a crazy way? I don't remember seeing any lane markings at all.

There are no markings there, from what the satellite photos and memory tell me. The drivers who use it are so familiar that they just weave between other cars with no concern for where lanes begin or end.

quote:

Have you heard of any road construction methods to reduce heat generation in cities? Sydney, Australia data shows that the city are is on average nearly 20 degrees Celsius warmer than it was 150 years ago due to urban heat, and I would think roads would be one place we could try to reduce urban heat, whether by different materials or some sort of paint covering. I have no idea on this though.

I've never heard of that being an issue here, but keep in mind that New England is relatively cold. Logically, lighter-colored roads could help with the problem. Painting the roads white, though, is a problem, since it doesn't provide adequate contrast with pavement markings. I think the MUTCD says you'd have to put the white stripes on a black background, and that's expensive.

quote:

On Aus cities, have you come across Melbourne asian import model nude they always seem to confuse visitors nicely.

Melbourne's signals along the tramways confuse me in ways hook turns never could

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Jul 4, 2007


Civil Engineer here. I took one transportation class and probably the only thing I took away from it is to run red lights. At signalled intersections there is a point when the lights in all directions will be red. It is called the ALL RED phase and I believe it lasts for 3 seconds. It is there as a safeguard to make sure the intersection is clear before the perpendicular direction turns green.

Anyway, I am all to familiar with stop and go traffic as I drive in Chicago frequently. I almost feel like idiot drivers can be blamed for slowdowns just as much as the highway design. They think that weaving in and out like a Nascar driver will save them time.

Question for you, say you are driving on a 3 lane freeway(I-55 in my case(stop&go traffic)) with traffic merging in on the right. What lane typically moves the quickest? I usually stay in the middle lane...I never really go in the right lane as I fear that the Queueing would slow me down to much. If you understand what I am asking I would like to hear your thoughts on what lane moves the quickest.

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Wretched Harp

It's bedtime, but don't let that stop you from asking questions. Try to ask only a couple at a time, please. You guys ask great questions, and I don't want to write too much about pedantic little things (not yet, at least.)

I like to keep the text broken up with pictures every now and again! Here's what VISSIM looks like when it's simulating traffic. The colored bars on the ground represent what color the signal is.



Major props to anyone who can figure out where this is! I'd be willing to bet at least one goon lives within 5 miles of it.

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fake eh seizure posted:

Civil Engineer here. I took one transportation class and probably the only thing I took away from it is to run red lights. At signalled intersections there is a point when the lights in all directions will be red. It is called the ALL RED phase and I believe it lasts for 3 seconds. It is there as a safeguard to make sure the intersection is clear before the perpendicular direction turns green.

I'll be devoting a full post to this sometime soon. Things like that are why I put the disclaimer in the OP. (Our red clearances are usually less than 3 seconds, though.)

quote:

Anyway, I am all to familiar with stop and go traffic as I drive in Chicago frequently. I almost feel like idiot drivers can be blamed for slowdowns just as much as the highway design. They think that weaving in and out like a Nascar driver will save them time.

Yep, they're to blame in more ways than one. If we didn't have to design roads for the stupidest .01% of the population, we could be driving on much higher-speed facilities with more lanes.

quote:

Question for you, say you are driving on a 3 lane freeway(I-55 in my case(stop&go traffic)) with traffic merging in on the right. What lane typically moves the quickest? I usually stay in the middle lane...I never really go in the right lane as I fear that the Queueing would slow me down to much. If you understand what I am asking I would like to hear your thoughts on what lane moves the quickest.

Due to some fun cognitive biases, it's always going to seem like your lane is moving the slowest. In theory, the leftmost lane should always drive fastest (It's the law here). If there are left entrances or exits, lane drops, narrow shoulders, or heavy congestion, then the middle lanes can be faster.

When I explain basic vs. auxiliary lanes, you'll see why things are a bit more complicated than just "stay right except to pass."

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Mank
Nov 28, 2004
Just pull down your panties.

Thanks for the thread! If everyone knew someone from a DOT or a traffic engineer or what have you, there would be approximately 99% less bitching due to misinformation or supposition.

I just wondered about dynamic message signs, or, as you may call them in Connecticut, variable message signs or changeable message signs! I can't remember which you guys call them; it seems to vary from state to state.

You mentioned that you had some sort of experience with them, so I wanted to ask what types of attributes you looked for in them. What features are important to you? What types of problems have you had with them that make technicians heads explode?

Also, have you helped with writing any specs or anything for DMS contracts? If so, what goes into that process? I assume it's usually low bid, but are there manufacturers that you prefer over others?

Thanks again!

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They're putting roundabouts in right next to where I live on the highway here. The highway begins here at Lake Ontario (I-590) and and goes to meet up with the other interstate branches and eventually I-90. The first 2 or 3 miles of it, has always been 4 stoplights. The one I use to enter the highway gets way too many accidents a year. People going 55, tend to try and beat the lights as often as possible. They stay yellow for a long time, which I think gives people the confidence to just go for it. Unfortunately, many miscalculate the time and distance needed and careen into cars making left's or right's onto the highway.

So they dropped the speed limit to 50, and that did absolutely nothing. So now it's roundabout time! They're about a month from completion, and they look horribly awkward. But I'm excited nonetheless. But the people around here are pretty scared of them, since exactly 100% of the population around here has never been through one, and I'm sure many of them hadn't even heard of them until now.

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The "Sea Breeze Expressway" from that soccer field North is this stretch of road. The 4 stoplights (Titus ave, Seneca Ave, Pt. Pleasant ave and Durand Blvd), are whats being converted to roundabouts. I wonder how long it'll take google maps to update with the changes to it.

Didn't realize there was a streetview. But here's the light that has tons of accidents (and the one I use). Now all 4 corners of the lots here were bought up by the town, and are currently large piles of dirt.

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problematique
Apr 3, 2008

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voltron posted:

Hey Cichlidae, awesome thread. I have a traffic question about a stupid light timing issue that has bugged me so much that I’ve written several E-mails to the local VDOT (Virginia Department of Transportation) to no avail.

My relatively short 3 mile commute is littered with horribly timed red-lights that are impossible to make unless it’s very early in the morning (before 6am) or very late at night (after 1am). Any information or insight into the absolute idiocy that is the local VDOT light-timing would be awesome.



First, here’s a map of my commute. I used to just take Route 28 down to work but they are removing the lights on that road to turn it into a highway. It doesn’t matter, traffic would flow in herds on that road anyway as all the cars moved from red-light to red-light (as if we were missing behind the green by just 10 seconds or so). fucking hardcore sex videos

Starting from the red dot, now I drive down and hit the first light at Nokes Blvd. Even if I come to Nokes Blvd, stop at the red light first in line, continue to drive through at/or above the speed limit, 90% of the time, Dulles Crossing Plaza will be turning red, just as I arrive (not enough time to pass on yellow).

While waiting at Nokes Blvd, the Dulles Crossing Plaza (DCP) light is green although there is no traffic, the traffic out of the strip mall on either side is always waiting while no one passes on Atlantic Blvd. Just a few hundred feet down from DCP is Dulles Eastern Plaza (DEP) which is always green while waiting at a red light at DCP! As soon as the DCP turns green, the DEP turns red on the way. There is no way any car could beat the red; it’s well known in the area that anyone speeding to pass DEP after having waited at the DCP is new to the area. The locals are the ones just trotting over to the DEP light knowing it will turn red in a few short seconds.

Anyway, rinse/repeat this whole scenario between the DEP light and the light at Severn Rd. Anyone trying to beat the light will find themselves zooming towards a green light just to have it turn red before you have time to make it through.

So to ask my question, why are the lights timed such that it’s green ahead (with no traffic) while I’m at the previous light waiting at a red light. Why do the lights turn red if the previous light just turned green to move the traffic along? Why is VDOT moving traffic along Atlantic Blvd like herds of sheep? It’s loving driving me insane.

I think the reason the light is always red at DCP is that most people coming from Atlantic or Nokes turn right, some left, but mostly right at DCP. Since so few go straight they have it red. Atlantic isn't supposed to be smooth. I think the designers assumed that people would be using 28. I'm pretty familiar with the area and if you jumped on 28 you'd get to Orbital pretty quick, even quicker now with them getting rid of the lights in that area.

In any case I have to contend with driving from Lowes Island area on 7 to Tysons which really is a red light traffic nightmare if you hit the wrong lights. Though when there's not to much traffic and everyone drives the speed limit or slightly below you can make it through most on green.

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Jul 13, 2008

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Very interesting thread; thanks, OP!

Here's an issue I'd love to hear your input on. I'm an avid bicyclist, and there's no end of argument on the various bicycling forums out there as to what's the all-around "best" arrangement for a reasonably busy road:

1. A dedicated bike lane, or other segregated facility.
2. An outside vehicle lane that's wide enough for a car and a bike to share safely side-by-side, or
3. The bike takes the full lane and forces car traffic to change lanes to pass.

Of course it's a lot more complicated than just this in the real world -- for example, a lot of bike lanes are located dangerously close to parallel-parked cars, so anyone who rides in them is practically begging to get jonas brothers sex stories. But I'm curious what sort of attention the spandex brigade gets in your simulations, and if you've arrived at any conclusions on "best practices" regarding us.

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Cichlidae posted:

It's bedtime, but don't let that stop you from asking questions. Try to ask only a couple at a time, please. You guys ask great questions, and I don't want to write too much about pedantic little things (not yet, at least.)

I like to keep the text broken up with pictures every now and again! Here's what VISSIM looks like when it's simulating traffic. The colored bars on the ground represent what color the signal is.



Major props to anyone who can figure out where this is! I'd be willing to bet at least one goon lives within 5 miles of it.

It's been a number of years since I lived in CT, but I think that's west of Meriden by I-84.

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Cichlidae posted:

I'll be devoting a full post to this sometime soon. Things like that are why I put the disclaimer in the OP. (Our red clearances are usually less than 3 seconds, though.)

There's celebrity sex tape photos in my city that has an all-red phase which lasts 5 seconds, instead of the standard 3 seconds found everywhere else. This can be confusing if you don't know about it. I often see people expecting the standard 3 seconds, causing the whole line of cars in the front to lurch forward only to have to wait another 2 seconds for the lights to go green.

If you are further back in the queue, it's even more apparent as you see all the cars letting go of their brakes at the same (wrong) time, just to inch forward a bit and stop again, often a metre or two into the crossing lane.

This phenomenon has resulted in our DOT adding very long shades on the sides of many traffic lights, so that the cars in the side lanes cannot see when the light has turned yellow. Is this kind of thing common?

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Cichlidae posted:

I've gotta say, that feels pretty weird on a gut level. While the country as a whole has a free xxx dog sex, it offers a lot of leniency in what individual states can do. Some states have a flashing red or yellow arrow to indicate a permissive left turn, some (CT and RI included) have a green ball (we call them balls, to you it's a normal circular light), whereas a green arrow indicates protected movements, and the new draft MUTCD proposes even more schemes. Personally, I'm a fan of the green ball, but if I saw some evidence that another scheme was safer, I'd switch over in a heartbeat.

Can I print this off as a "get out of jail free" card when an officer eventually pulls me over for making a left on red?

As a driver, I seriously feel that protected lefts fall into two categories:
1. Unsafe intersection to yield/use own judgement
2. Cover up some retarded design or to appease some locals who go 5 miles under the speed limit

An example of #1 could 6 lanes divided intersection or stuff that's on hills or around bends; fairly legit. #2 is way more common and can be found on 4 lanes divided local highways where it's completely level and visibility is whatever the weather dictates.

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Why do certain places have those god awful traffic lights that are impossible to tell which color they are until you're right under them? I get it, "ha ha! Those pesky drivers will have to slow down to see if they're ok to pass through the intersection!" but really, I imagine it would just create more traffic.

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Apr 13, 2004


Apparantly VISSIM has a trial that last 2 monthes - I'm downloading it right now to give it a shot.

Any other good/fun software you can recommend for us to try out? I'd like to try to create some of the interchanges you mentioned above!

Edit: Okay so by good/fun I don't mean VISSIM. Talk about being in over my head!

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Merrack
Sep 15, 2007


Great thread OP, I've been making an effort to complain less about the brainless idiots who must have designed my commute.

problematique posted:

if you jumped on 28 you'd get to Orbital pretty quick, even quicker now with them getting rid of the lights in that area.

This has been so weird to see, watching 28 become a highway (complete with a speed limit raise!)

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Mr. Chupon
Nov 4, 2006

Wait, am I doing this right?


Fantastic thread, if I had decided to do any other discipline of engineering I think it would have been traffic.

Requesting Coordination 102. The time-space diagrams illustrate how this works on a one dimensional plane, but what about at the intersection of large roads? Is there a way to render this in 3D or a better way than to just have two separate diagrams viewed in parallel? What are the metrics used and how are they weighted against each other? I'm thinking of a situation like if you can increase traffic by x cars per hour by making a few people wait an extra 30 seconds, versus improving it 1.5x per hour by making them wait 2 minutes.

Everything here in San Diego is based on sensors, is there a lot of data fed back to a central database for optimization? I feel like with so much continuous data collection it should be trivial to write algorithms to minimize wait times.

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psydude
Mar 31, 2008

Perry'd.


OP - anybody who has ever driven by, in, or around DC has had to deal with little nude girl pictures. On top of being incredibly confusing (I've driven through it numerous times on the way to and from school, and I still get off on the wrong exit), it also seems like the amount of congestion resulting from it is constantly a problem. Can you see any logic behind what the engineers building this interchange were thinking?

Also, what's your opinion of driving in DC? I'm convinced that the murder rate in that city is a result of a road system that could turn Joanie Mitchell into a mass murderer.

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