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thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Fnoigy posted:

Ok, really stupid question here, but why, exactly, does everybody hate The Galactic Empire? I mean, yea, it's ruled by the Sith lord and his apprentice, but nobody in the movies ever really say what the Empire does that really is so bad, other than taking extreme measures to pacify a violent rebellious uprising, but what ELSE do they do that everybody hates? What made the Rebellion start other than the fact that it was an empire rather than a republic?

Concerning what made the Rebellion start, someone else will have to cover that because I hear that's retconned in The Force Unleashed, so anything I know there will now be wrong.

As for what they did wrong, you have to remember what Tarkin said at the beginning of A New Hope. The Emperor has disbanded the Senate, and fear of the Death Star will now keep the local systems in line. Which means that the Emeperor has now abolished the body of duly elected representatives, placed appointed Governors in charge who are allowed to do whatever they want, and if you don't like it the Empire can blow up your planet, quite possibly destroying everything and everyone you have ever known. That's about as evil as you can get this side of kicking puppies.

Also, this isn't covered in the movies (other than an off-hand comment by the officer in the detention center) but the Empire is extremely xenophobic. They enslaved the entire Wookiee planet, and I think we can agree that slavery is pretty drat bad.

edit: Also, yeah, those things mentioned in the OP.

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WampaLord
Jan 14, 2010



Fnoigy posted:

Ok, really stupid question here, but why, exactly, does everybody hate The Galactic Empire? I mean, yea, it's ruled by the Sith lord and his apprentice, but nobody in the movies ever really say what the Empire does that really is so bad, other than taking extreme measures to pacify a violent rebellious uprising, but what ELSE do they do that everybody hates? What made the Rebellion start other than the fact that it was an empire rather than a republic?

BLEW UP A loving PLANET!

I mean, I love Thrawn as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend everything was sunshine and peaches under Palpatine.

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sniper4625
Sep 26, 2009

Loyal to the End


I wrote up a post answering the question, but then I lost it.

So to sum it up beyond what's in the OP:

The Galactic Empire is Nazi Germany with aliens replacing Hitler's free asian porno pics Untermenschen. Everything Hitler did - campaigns of terror, wanton brutality, warmongering - Palpatine is guilty of as well. They both used the same deception strategies too - promise a war-torn nation/galaxy peace, stability and order. Use an attempted "coup" (Reichstag Fire/Jedi Coup) to consolidate power without appearing to be overtly seizing it. Institute organizations to ensure ideological purity (Nazi Party/COMPNOR), crush any signs of revolt as soon as they appear.

While both governments did free boy mom sex technically deliver on some of their promises of peace and prosperity, the sheer amount of crimes against humanity (hell, all life for Palps) video porno de putas vastly outweighs any possible good they may have done. Perhaps under Thrawn or Pellaeon, the Empire could have been different, but as it was, the Empire was evil.

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WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



T-1000 posted:

He left it in a good place when the original series ended. Back when the enemy were the Empire and things made sense. You fought British dudes with snazzy uniforms and evil schemes. None of this fighting-spaceships-made-of-plants crap.

There is no reason why he can't have Wraith Squadron still fighting in the pre-NJO era. This was some behind-the-scenes commando squad anyway and the SW universe is huge, there is no reason they have to be involve in some huge galaxy spanning conflict that the Big 3 are a part of. Hell you can just have them fighting space pirates and it would be still great.

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Captain von Trapp
Jan 22, 2006

I don't like it, and I'm sorry I ever had anything to do with it.

In the first Star Wars film, the Empire attacks a diplomatic ship and kills everyone on board. They then wipe out a family and burn down their house because the might have bought a droid the Empire wanted. They torture a princess. They blow up a planet, resulting in a body count that makes the Holocaust seem picayune by comparison.

And that's just one movie. How much more cartoonishly Nazi do you want them do be? Should they have had Darth Vader hot naked pussy girls?

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thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

I'm wondering how long we can get away with this line of conversation before Mad Hammish starts cracking skulls.

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Fnoigy
Apr 9, 2007

I'm fine. Why do you ask?


sniper4625 posted:

I wrote up a post answering the question, but then I lost it.

So to sum it up beyond what's in the OP:

The Galactic Empire is Nazi Germany with aliens replacing Hitler's drunk girls have sex Untermenschen. Everything Hitler did - campaigns of terror, wanton brutality, warmongering - Palpatine is guilty of as well. They both used the same deception strategies too - promise a war-torn nation/galaxy peace, stability and order. Use an attempted "coup" (Reichstag Fire/Jedi Coup) to consolidate power without appearing to be overtly seizing it. Institute organizations to ensure ideological purity (Nazi Party/COMPNOR), crush any signs of revolt as soon as they appear.
Makes sense to me! I think they should have alluded to that more thoroughly in the movies, though. I mean, you could have called the Rebel Alliance "terrorists" and would have little to no trouble putting a whole different spin on the entire trilogy. They'd still be assholes, but they could be the "over-reacting assholes that still think they're doing something good" that could cause America-related derails for pages.

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sniper4625
Sep 26, 2009

Loyal to the End


Fnoigy posted:

Makes sense to me! I think they should have alluded to that more thoroughly in the movies, though.

Yeah, the movies could have fleshed things out more, but all they needed was a blatantly evil antagonist. (Weren't the movies written on the fly? I don't think there was much planning anyway) Besides, a lot of the evidence against the Empire comes from the EU. Hell, I think I read that High Human Culture was the EU's way of explaining why every Imperial we see in the movies are human males (and English!)

Fnoigy posted:

Hell, you could have called the Rebel Alliance "terrorists" and would have little to no trouble putting a whole different spin on the entire trilogy.

Paging Mad Hamish.

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thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Fnoigy posted:

Makes sense to me! I think they should have alluded to that more thoroughly in the movies, though. Hell, you could have called the Rebel Alliance "terrorists" and would have little to no trouble putting a whole different spin on the entire trilogy.

Not really. Again, the Empire blew up a planet. A planet filled with innocent people.

Also, keep in mind that when Lucas wrote A New Hope, he was writing as an allegory for the Vietnam War, with the Emperor as a useless Nixon type president. He saw the Empire as the eventual result of a country like America. Lucas used to be political. (well, he used to be slightly more subtle about it)

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sniper4625
Sep 26, 2009

Loyal to the End


thrawn527 posted:

Not really. Again, the Empire blew up a planet. A planet filled with innocent people.

Also, keep in mind that when Lucas wrote A New Hope, he was writing as an allegory for the Vietnam War, with the Emperor as a useless Nixon type president. He saw the Empire as the eventual result of a country like America. Lucas used to be political. (well, he used to be slightly more subtle about it)

At the time, whose word did we have that the planet was peaceful? Just Leia's - for all audiences knew, she could have been lying and Alderaan could have been a hotbed of dissension, armed to the teeth. In that context, the destruction of the world could have been justified. In hindsight, and considering the amount of EU material supporting Alderaan's pacifism, it's obviously pure evil.

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Slantedfloors
Apr 28, 2008

Wait, What?


sniper4625 posted:

At the time, whose word did we have that the planet was peaceful? Just Leia's - for all audiences knew, she could have been lying and Alderaan could have been a hotbed of dissension, armed to the teeth.
I find the idea the Alderaan had no weapons kind of stupid, what with the clearly armed Security Staff on their clearly armed Blockade Runner.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

WhyteRyce posted:

There is no reason why he can't have Wraith Squadron still fighting in the pre-NJO era. This was some behind-the-scenes commando squad anyway and the SW universe is huge, there is no reason they have to be involve in some huge galaxy spanning conflict that the Big 3 are a part of. Hell you can just have them fighting space pirates and it would be still great.

You could easily sit them in a post-LOTF era. Or any era. The point of Wraith Squadron is they stir poo poo up with whacky schemes to destabalise enemies. Pirate gangs, warlords etc. can be set pretty much anywhere from 6ABY onwards. They could stick it in Legacy era if they wanted.

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Nemesis Of Moles
Jul 25, 2007


sniper4625 posted:

At the time, whose word did we have that the planet was peaceful? Just Leia's - for all audiences knew, she could have been lying and Alderaan could have been a hotbed of dissension, armed to the teeth. In that context, the destruction of the world could have been justified.

Nah that'd still be pretty evil.

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Fnoigy
Apr 9, 2007

I'm fine. Why do you ask?


Slantedfloors posted:

I find the idea the Alderaan had no weapons kind of stupid, what with the clearly armed Security Staff on their clearly armed Blockade Runner.
Vader's defense: They had armed guards around their spaceports! You saw them holding blasters! We were defending ourselves!


Also, I apologize for not reading the OP carefully enough. I honestly didn't expect this question to be asked very often, and especially not asked seriously.

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WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



DougieC posted:

You could easily sit them in a post-LOTF era. Or any era. The point of Wraith Squadron is they stir poo poo up with whacky schemes to destabalise enemies. Pirate gangs, warlords etc. can be set pretty much anywhere from 6ABY onwards. They could stick it in Legacy era if they wanted.

I would be kind of amusing to have Wraith Squadron giving running commentary to the poo poo going on in the post-NJO era.

"Man that Jacen is a paige turner porn star dick."
"Seriously, and why is the government so stupid right now. Well at least his sister will bring him down"
"You didn't hear? She's off goofing around with some mandalorians"
"free men porn sites Mandalorians? Why the hell is she wasting so much of her time with them? What do they have to do with anything?"
"I don't know but she's always been a little off. Did you here she lived with a bunch of bugs...and you know...did things"
"When did the galaxy get so stupid"

It would be like I, Jedi

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sniper4625
Sep 26, 2009

Loyal to the End


^^^ It's like a Rebel Version of "Guy who gets told to get the gently caress out of Thrawn's Office." I miss that guy.

Nemesis Of Moles posted:

Nah that'd still be pretty evil.

Reading the script, Tarkin does ask Leia if she would prefer a different target, specifically, "a military target". So yeah, it's a blatant attack on a civilian target, no doubt about it.

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Azzmo
Jul 2, 2007
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draize_train posted:

In the last thread, someone linked to a TFN thread with a ranking of all the EU novels. I've been unable to find it since, does anyone have a link handy? I like rankings.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Azzmo posted:

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I really enjoyed SOTME when I read it (I was about 12). Rose-tinted memories?
I'm also surprised to see Allegiance in the middle of the Corellian trilogy. I thought it was a good book and I loved the Stormtroopers-go-rogue-but-don't-go-rebel angle.

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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

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Slantedfloors posted:

I find the idea the Alderaan had no weapons kind of stupid, what with the clearly armed Security Staff on their clearly armed Blockade Runner.

Those could likely be Senate security with rebel sympathies. Leia sends down a call to Captain Antilles from her senatorial offices: "gather a couple hundred men you absolutely trust, we're going on a little trip..."

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Slantedfloors
Apr 28, 2008

Wait, What?


arioch posted:

Those could likely be Senate security with rebel sympathies. Leia sends down a call to Captain Antilles from her senatorial offices: "gather a couple hundred men you absolutely trust, we're going on a little trip..."
So at best, Alderann is totally completely disarmed but it's politicians choose to fly around with an armed militia that has no official governmental ties.

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SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009


Slantedfloors posted:

So at best, Alderann is totally completely disarmed but it's politicians choose to fly around with an armed militia that has no official governmental ties.

Fits well with our FFR theory.

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Azzmo
Jul 2, 2007
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DougieC posted:

I really enjoyed SOTME when I read it (I was about 12). Rose-tinted memories?
I'm also surprised to see Allegiance in the middle of the Corellian trilogy. I thought it was a good book and I loved the Stormtroopers-go-rogue-but-don't-go-rebel angle.

You're definitely viewing SOTME through rose tinted goggles. It's a very silly story.

I also thought that Allegiance was rated too low. Should be a point higher. Same with the Darth Bane books. Overall, though, most of the list makes sense to me.

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Throb Robinson
Feb 8, 2010

He would enjoy administering the single antidote to Leia. He would enjoy it very much indeed..


Azzmo and me are having a hivemind about star wars

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Crowetron
Apr 29, 2009

Y'know, there's an old saying about dogs and blowing shit up...



Allegiance owned but it does suffer from the contractually obligated appearance of Luke & the gang.

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Throb Robinson
Feb 8, 2010

He would enjoy administering the single antidote to Leia. He would enjoy it very much indeed..


And Vader Googling Luke. Thats the best scene in the book.

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haitfais
Aug 7, 2005

I am offended by your ham, sir.

Residency Evil posted:

I think I know the answer to this question, but is there ANY way that we'll see episodes 7-9? Or at least a followup set a few years later? I know Lucas has said no, but he does love money a whole lot.

The barely-even-conceived episodes 7-9 were compressed into Return of the Jedi, because Lucas was tired of those Star Wars.

thrawn527 posted:

I'm wondering how long we can get away with this line of conversation before Mad Hamish starts cracking skulls.

I'm surprised he hasn't shown up yet. I was even nice to him in the OP.

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Duckman2008
Jan 6, 2010

TFW you see Flyers goaltending.

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sniper4625 posted:

^^^ It's like a Rebel Version of "Guy who gets told to get the gently caress out of Thrawn's Office." I miss that guy.


haha i don't remember that part of the books, who was that?

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sniper4625
Sep 26, 2009

Loyal to the End


Duckman2008 posted:

haha i don't remember that part of the books, who was that?

Unfortunately, that's not an actual character, just a running gag around here. He made quite a few appearences in the last thread.

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Slantedfloors
Apr 28, 2008

Wait, What?


Duckman2008 posted:

haha i don't remember that part of the books, who was that?

"Guy Who Tells Thrawn Retarded EU Plotpoints" was just a running gag from the last thread.

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thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Duckman2008 posted:

haha i don't remember that part of the books, who was that?

Not in any of the books. They were posts made by Crowetron that were hilarious, in response to the book walk-throughs.

Here's some:

Crowetron posted:

"Grand Admiral Thrawn, we've received a coded Imperial request. It seems your presence is requested at a...'mofference'."

"...get the gently caress out of my office."

Crowetron posted:

"Grand Admiral Thrawn, our spies have reported that Han Solo and Leia Organa were spotted entering...uh, well, the Hologram Fun World, sir."

"...who let you back into my office?"

Crowetron posted:

"Grand Admiral Thrawn, joyous news! You've been invited to the wedding of Princess Leia Organa to our Emperor Trioculus! Well, he's not the only Emperor at the moment, cuz there also this Kadann guy, and he's some sort of crazy magic prophet or something, and he declared himself..."

"Who even are you?"

Crowetron posted:

"Grand Admiral Thrawn, terrible news! Again, the Empire has lost its leader! Emperor Trioculus was assassinated!"

"Was it...artistically done?"

"Um...not really, no. A robot copy of Princess Leia burned a hole in his chest with eye lasers in the middle of his wedding."

"Get the fu...wait a second, what?"

Crowetron posted:

"Grand Admiral Thrawn, I have very important news!"

"Oh, for chrissakes..."

"Apparently, Palpatine's son himself had a child!"

"Wait, the one who got shot in the chest by robot-Leia?"

"Uh, no. Turns out Palpatine's son was a different three-eyed mutant. But the Emperor's Grandson is none of than the Jedi Prince!"

"...what does 'Jedi Prince' mean?"

"Apparently nothing, sir."

"Wonderful."

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Fnoigy
Apr 9, 2007

I'm fine. Why do you ask?


Everything I've ever heard about the EU makes it seem like an enormous clusterfuck.

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thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Fnoigy posted:

Everything I've ever heard about the EU makes it seem like an enormous clusterfuck.

Best part is, those were all from one series of books. (I'm assuming you're referring to Crowetron's quotes I reposted.)

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May 27, 2009

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Throb Robinson
Feb 8, 2010

He would enjoy administering the single antidote to Leia. He would enjoy it very much indeed..


Fnoigy posted:

Everything I've ever heard about the EU makes it seem like an enormous clusterfuck.

Pretty much. Especially now that George has figured out the the Clone wars = $$$. I think we have like three separate versions of how the Clone wars happened. I think the Dark Horse stories put out are gone due to the show and I would think the old Clone wars show is gone now too due to the TV show.

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Slantedfloors
Apr 28, 2008

Wait, What?


Rough Lobster posted:

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Crowetron
Apr 29, 2009

Y'know, there's an old saying about dogs and blowing shit up...



Does Bossk get a spin-off?

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Slantedfloors
Apr 28, 2008

Wait, What?


Crowetron posted:

Does Bossk get a spin-off?

Bossk is played by Kevin James.

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Crowetron
Apr 29, 2009

Y'know, there's an old saying about dogs and blowing shit up...



Slantedfloors posted:

Bossk is played by Kevin James.

I'd watch that. For reals.



vvvvv Not even kidding, I'd buy the DvD box set of that.

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Jul 27, 2004
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Slantedfloors posted:

Bossk is played by Kevin James.

The hook is he gets one or both his arms pulled out of their sockets by the Wookiee slaves he delivers every week. Also, it's funny because he's fat.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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Throb Robinson posted:

Pretty much. Especially now that George has figured out the the Clone wars = $$$. I think we have like three separate versions of how the Clone wars happened. I think the Dark Horse stories put out are gone due to the show and I would think the old Clone wars show is gone now too due to the TV show.

So far it's entirely possible to ignore the Clone Wars TV series because all the EU lit around the CWs have already been written, and there's no apparent intention for the era to be revisited any time soon outside tie-in literature (which is fine by me) - they're probably going to wait for the series to pan out before going back in to unfuck things.

It's definitely fair to say the canon is in a worse shape than it's been in awhile. Personally I fancy making my own canon which relegates the current animated series, and anything post NJO before Legacy, to apocryphal texts, along with anything else I feel like (I like relegating Dark Empire to a clone trick rather than the actual reincarnated spirit of Palpatine).

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