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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

hunkofsoup posted:

That being said, yesterday I received a package in the mail containing this:


I can't wait to start reading. Zahn's bad habits as a writer bugged me less and less as I got into the books, and I hope I can gloss over Stackpole's flaws just as easily.

You realise you're two books short of the full series right?

Also on the announcements: I'm so glad the multi-book series are out the door after the abortion that was LOTF. Fate of the Jedi basically seems to be a series designed to unfuck the one that came before it and that's a pretty big indication they cocked up

Hopefully this will lead to better authors writing with more regularity (Zahn, Stover, even Luceno) with less horrific storylines and continuity gently caress ups (Traviss, Denning). Also hopefully it'll leave us with more novels that stand on their own as great books, instead of just feeling like the latest episode in a soap.

Also the Wraith Squadron return has me all

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Residency Evil posted:

I think I know the answer to this question, but is there ANY way that we'll see episodes 7-9? Or at least a followup set a few years later? I know Lucas has said no, but he does love money a whole lot.

He is altering the franchise, pray he doesn't alter it any further.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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hunkofsoup posted:

They're arriving later this week from Amazon, along with girl nude video free I, Jedi and watch sex scenes free Vector Prime. (My library has the Thrawn duology, which I'll read before tackling NJO.)

You've taken your first step into a larger world.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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WhyteRyce posted:

There is no reason why he can't have Wraith Squadron still fighting in the pre-NJO era. This was some behind-the-scenes commando squad anyway and the SW universe is huge, there is no reason they have to be involve in some huge galaxy spanning conflict that the Big 3 are a part of. Hell you can just have them fighting space pirates and it would be still great.

You could easily sit them in a post-LOTF era. Or any era. The point of Wraith Squadron is they stir poo poo up with whacky schemes to destabalise enemies. Pirate gangs, warlords etc. can be set pretty much anywhere from 6ABY onwards. They could stick it in Legacy era if they wanted.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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Azzmo posted:

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I really enjoyed SOTME when I read it (I was about 12). Rose-tinted memories?
I'm also surprised to see Allegiance in the middle of the Corellian trilogy. I thought it was a good book and I loved the Stormtroopers-go-rogue-but-don't-go-rebel angle.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Throb Robinson posted:

Pretty much. Especially now that George has figured out the the Clone wars = $$$. I think we have like three separate versions of how the Clone wars happened. I think the Dark Horse stories put out are gone due to the show and I would think the old Clone wars show is gone now too due to the TV show.

So far it's entirely possible to ignore the Clone Wars TV series because all the EU lit around the CWs have already been written, and there's no apparent intention for the era to be revisited any time soon outside tie-in literature (which is fine by me) - they're probably going to wait for the series to pan out before going back in to unfuck things.

It's definitely fair to say the canon is in a worse shape than it's been in awhile. Personally I fancy making my own canon which relegates the current animated series, and anything post NJO before Legacy, to apocryphal texts, along with anything else I feel like (I like relegating Dark Empire to a clone trick rather than the actual reincarnated spirit of Palpatine).

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

T-1000 posted:

This would force us to learn how crappy the later EU is. I'll pass. Also they'd be in their fifties and sixties and that's just pamela andeson sex video weird.

I would hope that, free of the tyranny of being ordered to write novels about the big 3 who should just be loving retired and taking long baths all day, Allston would not be afraid to write new squadron members with only cameos from the old cast members, if he chose to write in that era.

I imagine even the era isn't going to be finalised until FOTJ is finished and he can sit down and write an outline to submit to Del Rey. I'd love to see an original adventure so I've no problem with setting it post-LOTF. Just because the rest of the literature set around that time is horrible doesn't mean a good story cannot be told in that setting. Crosscurrent was set post-LOTF and I really enjoyed it.

Just thinking what was lovely about LOTF: they really played on the cultural distrust of the conflict in the Middle East when they wrote the story and it was loving pathetic. Traviss especially took the retarded comparison to its worst levels, with "axis of evil" allegories, IIRC. They thought they were tapping into the love for "gritty", morally ambiguous poo poo in the media at a time when, like in 1977, people were so depressed by real life that they wanted uplifting escapism from their media again - this is why the TV series Glee is such a hit IMO, and why Flashforward bombed in spite of doing its best to recreate the things that made Lost popular.

If you think about it, the early 90s EU stuff was still pretty upbeat, with easily identifiable (if sometimes interesting and likeable e.g. Zahn's stuff), limited danger and fairly happy endings, and descended into gritty about the same time shows like Lost, BSG, 24 etc. started appearing on telly.

I do think they are attempting to simplify and upbeat things in FOTJ with some fairly identifiable evils, a simple old school father-and-son road trip, whacky Han and Leia's grandaughter etc., but they're just struggling with the execution because of the turd that came before it, and because of the limited abilities of the authors.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Azzmo posted:

I speculate that many people, as you're probably about to see, have a personal dislike for Traviss that transcends and ignores the good writing that she has done. The Republic Commando books are some of my favorite Star Wars literature - action stories about small unit operations which ask moralistic questions that might face a soldier and his commanding officers. One of the greatest things is that the stories are self-contained and have very little of the George Lucas taint (ridiculous names, reminders that the prequels exist, attempts to give the prequel storyline some meaning and reason for having existed). Instead it's just guerilla and spec-ops warfare by soldiers who are slowly maturing and starting to ask questions of the world around them.

Your enjoyment of Legacy of the Force is folly, though, and you are a horrible person for enjoying that series.

There is certainly a justified, personal dislike for Traviss that transcends any of the writing (some good, more atrocious) she has written, with good reason. Her treatment of fans was despicable – commenting how she’d like to garrotte or slit the throats of her detractors, comparing them to terrorists, comparing people who defend the Jedi to Nazis, etc. etc. She doesn’t read other novels for research and justifies this laziness by saying it offers her a “fresh approach”. There’s plenty to dislike.

But I could deal with an author being a stinkyhole. I don’t really care about that, and if her books had been consistently good I wouldn’t care. What I care about is consistent characterisation and continuity, something she doesn’t give a poo poo about, and yet something which, when writing in a universe with hundreds of pieces of established literature all (supposedly) fitting together without contradiction, is pretty loving important. She clearly has a polemic she thinks is “edgy” about how despicable the Jedi Order is. Fine, tell the story, tell a story from the POV of traditional antagonists, ask questions you think we’re afraid to ask, but that doesn’t give you an excuse to re-characterise Jedi behaviour and customs for the sake of your "point". Every Jedi in her stories is a simpleminded straw man that never talks back or rebuts the rants (which are really the author talking) levelled against them in her novels.

And the criticisms of the Order exist almost exclusively in her novels:
- From everyone, including Jedi characters, genuinely seeming to think that the Jedi Order steals babies from their parents, even though dozens of sources establish that the Jedi must obtain free consent of the parents;
- To the CW novel re-scripting a scene from the movie where she discovers that a droid is a spy who tries to kill her with half a dozen battle droids, into a disturbing execution scene where she murders an unarmed sentient droid because it questions her beliefs;
- To the LOTF novels where the Jedi are somehow to blame for not helping Mandalore resist Yuuzhan Vong invasion, even though this never happened until she wrote it, even though the Jedi weren’t in charge of the military resources that were stretched very thin forcing conscious decisions not to defend many worlds, and even though the Jedi were the only reason a galactic civilisation that turned against them actually won that war (not that Jaina says any of this).

I’m all for asking the “ugly questions” of the Jedi Order. They’ve made mistakes in their history and their ascetic attitude post-Ruusan was a big mistake that led to their downfall. But do it without making Jedi characters so retarded and re-characterising established characters like Luke and Jaina so horrifically that it ruins the immersion entirely.

And Hard Contact and Triple Zero were decent novels (I don't objectively see anything in them to call them "great" and I wouldn't recommend them to anyone wanting to read a Star Wars because there's very little Star Wars-y about them) But each book after that was progressively worse until Imperial Commando. That novel was 430-some pages of unlikeable, characters (whose internal dialogues were nearly indistinguishable) moping around their trillionaire mansion planning things that never come to fruition. There are 3 small action scenes in the entire loving novel, which probably take up 20 pages combined. Nothing happens in the rest of the book! And her writing style is just horrible. It’s all telling and no showing. “Skirata doesn’t hold grudges and gives everyone a chance to prove themselves”, says the narrative without being supported by the text. “This new Commander Melusar is one of those who troopers instantly respect” says Darman’s internal perspective, without anything the new commander says or does reinforcing this belief.

Oh, and let’s not forget she killed someone else’s character, utterly pointlessly , without asking permission and without it adding anything to the story. I could have lived with LOTF if it had just been poo poo. But it was not only poo poo and unnecessary, it also has massive negative ramifications to the lives of the heroes of the films. I think Luke, Han and Leia should be allowed to have happy lives, as promised by the happy ending to ROTJ, not a life where Luke has his wife brutally murdered and has to raise his son alone, and Han and Leia see two of their three children die, with the latter death being something they deliberately endeavour to bring about. But maybe that’s a minority opinion.

Rant over.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Derek Dominoe posted:

How long can a human Jedi go without pooping? This is important to my enjoyment of all things Star Wars since Jedi (including Luke) insist on flying across the galaxy in single-seat fighters.

What makes you think that a futuristic faster-than-light space fighter doesn't have facilities if you want to take a poo poo?

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Jerk McJerkface posted:

Not just Jedi, there's a lot of non-jedi hyperspace X-Wing travel in the X-Wing books. Even fighters now have pee tubes, so why wouldn't an X-Wing?

But do they have poo tubes?

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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WampaLord posted:

I'm sure a friendly stroll to Wookieepedia will clarify this issue...

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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Chairman Capone posted:

The absolute best part about Shadows of Mindor isn't even that, it's how that is explained in the last few pages of the book fat girl porn pics That the entire novel, minus the forward and afterward which are set in the "real world" of the Star Wars universe, is actually an in-universe propaganda holonovel written by that New Republic Intelligence guy to glorify Luke and the New Republic's campaign against the Empire

I think it's only insinuated. Brilliant novel though.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

How could you even think to support Thrawn unironically?

He's a grand admiral for the EMPIRE. The EMPIRE

I cam across wrestling divas naked pics which details all the different tropes (storytelling devices) used within literature and other media, and has a beautiful naked women sex. On Thrawn they have this to say:

quote:

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wwe micky james naked A Lighter Shade Of Grey: Compared to the Imperials from the movies, and to the Imperials written by just about every other Expanded Universe author, Zahn's Imperials really aren't that bad. They're... people, who happen to be the enemies of our heroes, and who do things our heroes wouldn't do.

Thrawn is still nude pics spring break not good people, though. He has absolutely no qualms about betraying Mara to get to Karrde in Dark Force Rising, kidnapping someone's children and delivering them to be corrupted by an granny porn pic galleries Ax Crazy Complete Monster, and his military strategy involves growing his own girls sex with dad slave soldiers by the thousands and throwing them at the Republic. Thrawn is certainly straight guy sex video A Lighter Shade Of Grey, and he's no south park porn pics Card Carrying Villain, but it should always be remembered that he anime sex games free is a ruthless son of a bitch.

The list of devices is huge by the way, and I really enjoyed reading it.

Also, Zahn's original plans for the novel:

quote:

What Could Have Been: Originally Zahn wanted the character that became Joruus C'baoth to be an insane clone of Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the clone he unleashes on Luke at the end of The Last Command to be a clone of Darth Vader. Lucasarts (sic) vetoed both of these, which might be just as well, as it could have led to the same kind of Death Is Cheap scenario that made Dark Empire so unpopular with some fans.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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WampaLord posted:

NO! Run, you fool, RUN!!!!


And so TV Tropes has claimed another innocent life.

I....what?

I thought it was quite good! Made me appreciate how good Zahn's novels were (I'm just done reading their bit on the Thrawn duology).

Is this a really famous website I've somehow missed through an inexplicable internet blind spot?

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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Exactly this has happened to us all.

I'm still on it.

I like that they thought LOTF was dogshit.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Captain von Trapp posted:

I really dislike the EU for reasons well enumerated in this thread and the last - basically, that it's usually incredibly stupid.

It should be re-stated that an awful lot of us who bitch and bitch about the EU do actually really like it. Sure, the main heroes stories have been loving dumb since LOTF, but there's a fair amount of really great stuff. The varying standard of the literature reflects probably the varying standard of sci-fi authors as a whole, and the only thing that sets the EU apart is that once something is written and published, there's no backsies - it's part of the continuity for good.

As for the great, non-stupid stuff, it's more than people realise. So you have:
- The 8 novels Zahn has written (Thrawn trilogy, HoT duology, Outbound Flight, Survivor's Quest, Allegiance)
- The 9 X-Wing novels (particularly the ones written by Allston)
- The Han Solo trilogy written by Ann Crispin
- The Han Solo trilogy written by Brian Daley
- I, Jedi just about (makes the Jedi Academy trilogy story palatable)
- Most of the Clone Wars literature produced in between the releases of AoTC and RoTS (novels and comics)
- The TOTJ comics sort of, the KOTOR comics definitely
- Anything by Stover
- All of the comics produced by Dark Horse in the last decade - Empire, Rebellion, KOTOR, Republic, Legacy (okay, Legacy is great *and* stupid)
- An then if you enjoy Vector Prime you have a 20-novel-epic to enjoy

There's an awful lot of literature out there to enjoy and the good thing about a lot of the dross - things like Crystal Star, Planet of Twilight, Black Fleet Crisis, Bounty Hunter Wars etc. - is that you can steer clear of them and forget they existed. Planet of Twilight has sat in pristine condition on my bookshelf for the past fifteen years or so (whenever it was released), whilst Heir to the Empire is tattered and torn. The patchwork, jump-around-the-timeline approach of Bantam has an unintentional upside in that the really bad stuff is almost never referenced again, and have no impact on the lives of the characters (most of it is villain-of-the-week, reset button stuff) to make them essential reading.

Basically, there's enough out there for a new person coming to the EU to immerse themselves for years without encountering stupidity. The stupidity just seems to be more fun to talk about, and temporarily more prevalent with these ghastly three-author collaborative series.

And don't forget how awesome lots of the games are - the X-Wing and Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series especially.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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muscles like this? posted:

In the Legacy comic book series Luke is definitely dead as his force ghost showed up a couple of times.

Although the authors have always been deliberately ambiguous about the source of the projection. They say things like "it always *seems* to be Luke's Force-ghost".

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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BonHair posted:

Also the graphics are outdated

I still play X-Wing Alliance from time to time as it runs without any problems on modern systems (I also have the Collector's Edition versions of X-Wing and Tie Fighter which only require a little bit of tinkering), and thanks to the sexy women sex movies still looks plenty flash. The game engine was obviously capable of handling far more complex models than the ones that were designed for it, and the updated models make it look excellent for an 11-year old game. The gameplay meanwhile hasn't aged a bit and is still the perfect amount of micromanagement in order to feel more immersive that a simple action game like Battlefront II. It's also really easy to make custom missions for it that I'm surprised there aren't more 100 mission epics out there. I always wanted to write some epic campaign involving an Imperial squadron that eventually jumps the fence but I was always too lazy.

I know there's also a Tie Fighter total conversion out there for it. I've no idea whether it's still possible to play multiplayer or if there's any community for it still but if they re-released it with working MP I'd be on that like a rash. Back when XvT was released (this was 1997-8 I think) we used to go to an internet cafe with joysticks in our bags and have team Tie Fighter vs. Tie Fighter battles and they were incredible fun.

Tie Fighter probably edges XWA in terms of atmosphere but XWA deserves more recognition than it ever received.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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Karandras posted:

I guess it makes sense if you picture the Imperial Fleet as being basically 100% held up intimidating local systems with only a few dozen or more capital ships free for action at a time?

Scale is a bitch when it comes to Star Wars. On one hand, you have things like ROTJ where the entire Rebel Fleet amounts to four cruisers and supporting vessels, and novels like the Thrawn Trilogy where Thrawn wrecks poo poo up with a tiny fleet of four vanilla Star Destroyers, and on the other hand they band around numbers like a million member systems, 100 quadrillion population of the Empire etc. It's hard to rationalise. I do it the same way you do by picturing 99% of the navy are on guard duty so it's really hard to muster an aggressive force, especially post-ROTJ when planets will be more open to rebellion.

I think the Remnant had something like 2,000 ISDs by the end of the war, so if you extrapolate that backwards a ballpark figure could probably be reasoned (10x that maybe?).

That the Empire would lack the resources to smash openly rebelling planets prior to ROTJ doesn't sit well with me though. I just can't picture the GCW as a land grab a la the Empire at War or Rebellion games.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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arioch posted:

That's why games aren't canon. gently caress TFU.

Yes, but my point is that in EU literature (and games like X-Wing) you have races that are in open rebellion: the Mon Calamari, the Sullustans, maybe the Bothans, but I find that impossible to stomach when the Empire has an overwhelming military/logistical advantage surely capable of making GBS threads up any planet of its choosing. Surely the only way to evade such a force is to keep on the move and be all guerilla warfare.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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arioch posted:

You blow up a few planets and fear of it's an effective tool, you blow up a few more planets and then the general population goes into open revolt anyway. At least, that's how you'd justify it in Star Wars. The Rebels generally set up their actual bases in out of the way backwater planets (gently caress the EU for making Hoth the second Tatooine) so the Empire has no idea where they're at to justify glassing an entire planet to get them.

Which they only have to do because of the existence of planetary shielding.

It makes sense.

But Mon Calamari was a planet in open rebellion, as in the kicked Imperials off the planet, stopped paying their taxes etc. The Empire could have justified loving their poo poo up by the fact that they're suppressing an open revolt for the good of the Empire and its stability. It makes far more sense to put down an open rebellion if you're a tyrannical stinkyhole regime than allow it to exist, because tolerating it would mean more planets could try it and get away with it.

I think according to Dark Empire and its RPG sourcebook, the Emperor had planned to use the Death Star on Mon Calamari, but then it went boom, so when his clone unleashed the World Devastators the planet was his first planet. So the official in-universe answer is that they never quite got around to it. Maybe it's a logistical nightmare assembling a fleet big enough to lay a smackdown on Mon Calamari and it takes several years or something. Vader's fleet in ESB was something like 27 star destroyers and that was probably the biggest mobile fleet out there, and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch of the imagination to think that the Mon Cal defense force (planet population of 27 billion and first-rate shipyard should equate to thousands and thousands of fighters and a number of capships) could battle that fleet to a standstill. I guess.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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deathsuxdontdie posted:

Not according to the movies. This is one of my biggest beefs with the EU. They're just lovely blaster fodder in the movies, why try to explain it any further than that?

Eh, if you think about it, they're the shock troops used in important poo poo - boarding the Tantive IV, storming the detention block, storming Hoth base - whilst the regular troopers guarding cells on Death Stars and drag choked captains out of Vader's office. There's a mixture of the two on Endor reflecting there are two levels of troopers, and the Stormtroopers are the more proficient of the two.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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Kingtheninja posted:

What's still taking getting used to is how old everyone is. It isn't terrible yet, but I can definitely see it head that way if things continue going the way they are.

In my experience listening to the audio books tends to paint the novel in a better light than just reading it cold. FOTJ isn't ridiculously sucky but it certainly isn't good. It's just meh, the colour grey, two and a half stars etc.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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The Alderaan factor is actually one of the best issues of the Marvel series. Which isn't saying much. It's actually written by the the guy who later wrote Crimson Empire (Randy Stradley, who is pretty much head of Dark Horse's Star Wars projects).

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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Big Mean Jerk posted:

Oh yeah, it's definitely a step above LOTF. It just seems like the non-Allston authors keep falling back into the same traps that made LOTF suck.

If anyone's interesting in bitching to Troy Denning about LOTF then he's posted in naked play boy bunnys on TFN:

Troy Denning posted:

Marmkid posted: "I think Denning is the one who decided to ignore the Vong, as isnt he the one who was behind the main overall stories of DN, LotF and now FotJ?"

This is only about 1/4 accurate. First, NO EU author has this much influence! (Thanks for thinking so, though!) I'm very proud of the contributions I have been lucky enough to make to the EU. But the truth is that charting the course of the EU is a collaborative process between the authors, editors, and many other staff members at LfL, and it would be a disservice to the others involved to suggest that I've been the guiding force for the last half-decade or so. In the interests of not slighting a lot of fine folks, can we just posit that I'm responsible for the stuff you don't like, and acknowledge that a lot of other folks are responsible for what you do like?

Regarding DN: as I recall, the feeling at the time I was assigned DN (shortly before TUF was being written) was that the readers had probably had enough of the Yuuzhan Vong for a while. (And I think this was true.) So I was asked to write a story that didn't revolve around them -- and which wouldn't change the basic peace conditions that were to be imposed at the end of TUF. (In other words, the YV were still to be confined to Zonama Sekot.) I tried to show -- especially in The Joiner King -- a galaxy that was still in the process of rebuilding, without dwelling on it. Perhaps I didn't go far enough, perhaps I went too far -- that's for readers to decide, and opinions will almost certainly shift as the EU continues to develop. I know mine has.

Regarding LotF: the SEED of the idea was mine ("what if Jacen went dark?"). The rest of the story was developed in a collaboration of the writers, editors, and staff from both LfL and Del Rey. I'm proud of the story and of its market success. That's not to say it was perfect -- no story ever is -- and, hindsight being 20/20, I'll be the first to admit there are things I wish I had done differently. There are always are. (I won’t tell you what, though, as I’ve seen the kind of forum-wars such comments can cause!)

Regarding FotJ: both the core idea for this series and the initial development came from someone else. I haven’t seen them acknowledge this publicly yet, so I’m not going to say who. But I do want to make clear it wasn’t me. I think it’s a tremendous story, and I’m very excited about where it’s going and how we’re going to wrap it up.

My reply:

quote:

Ouch. I mean, I'm sure there's more to it than this, but it almost sounds like you built an entire, 9-book series around a gimmick idea. One that did not necessarily make sense considering his character's journey in the NJO (which, like Jaina's development, was seemingly cast to one side), hence FOTJ(which I'm enjoying like a glass of milk after a particularly intolerable curry)'s search-for-why-Jacen-went-bad, which I interpret (rightly or wrongly) as a concession of this.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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WampaLord posted:

I did. I wanted to ask a ton, but plenty of other people had questions to ask. The question I asked was for Zahn, and it was regarding his feelings about Mara's death.

He basically said that she was a great character who still had plenty of use in her, and that Star Wars isn't really the kind of universe where you kill off people just to "up the drama." Basically, he was pissed that she was killed off and without his consent, which I what I expected to hear, but it was really cool hearing it from him firsthand.
I really think the only author who has been able to faithfully recreate Zahn's pets - Mara, Thrawn, Karrde - is Stackpole, and only via a tremendous amount of collaborative effort and through clearly thinking on the same (minimalist) level when it comes to Star Wars.

The sad thing about Mara is that, like all relationships in Star Wars, her marriage with look was a total Lois & Clark, which resulted in her character stagnating. The damning indictment of the way her character has been misused is to say that Luke is a much more interesting character with Mara out of the way. And I say that through gritted teeth because I hate anything that alters the happily-ever-after implication of ROTJ or the significance of the victory(including the following: life-ruining events for the main characters, such as losing a wife or 2/3rds of their offspring; the Sith returning and re-taking the galaxy only a couple of generations after the end of the GCW, when the galaxy has previously enjoyed millennia or peace far less earned)


Shimrra Jamaane posted:

I fully support retconning the EU back to immediately after The Unifying Force. The NJO set up an entire new galaxy for Star Wars authors to write in, one that had almost unlimited potential. It did it's job of having a "changing of the guard" so to speak of the younger generation coming into the forefront with the Big 3 taking a more secondary role. Jacen especially was all set up take up the title as the main Jedi protagonist.

They completely threw all the massive character and plot development away and instead decided to do stupid poo poo. The Big 3 are still the total focus of the books and the younger generation is almost all entirely dead. The entire point of the NJO, to bring Star Wars EU into a new age, was completely abandoned. Retards.

My thoughts, practically word-for-word.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Boondock Saint posted:

Gah, don't remind me. I still have dreams where I wake up to finding either the game's placed on steam with working versions for windows 7 or that Lucasarts actually goes ahead and releases a new Tie Fighter game that is awesome and just as good if not better than the original.

I hate the fact that last year the former Lucasarts president said something to the effect of, stay tuned, we have news planned for the X-Wing/Tie Fighter games. I demand to know now what the hell he meant by that statement.

I'm guessing he no longer has a job and that the idea has been benched.

That being said, I'm playing through Tie 95 on a Windows 7 PC at the moment without any problems (you just need to find a compatibility patch) and having a blast. There's also a TC for X-Wing Alliance that turns it into Tie Fighter(with all campaign missions) but I prefer to play it on an engine that allows me to speed up time inbetween action. On Sunday I played through the first four battles in about three hours and on Monday I dealt with that traitor Harkov.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Chairman Capone posted:

That is awesome what you wrote, but given the fact it's TFN, did a mod blank your post and/or ban you?

Actually, TFN seems pretty responsibly moderated at the moment. The dissatisfaction with the series, and also with Traviss, runs all the way to the top mods like Havac who let it run provided it's on-topic in the thread. In fact, the only moderation that I've seen occur recently has been in posts by pro-Traviss cretins (when Robimus turned to personal snipes after overwhelmingly failing to offer good defense of her works).

I think a good portion of TFN lit forum's active membership consider LOTF the worst thing to ever happen the the EU, and can articulate it without stepping over the boundaries of fair criticism.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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Nemesis Of Moles posted:

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I think that overall the video games are a highlight of Star Wars media, perhaps super hairy pussy pics the highlight.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Clemen posted:

Because of this thread I brought out my old gamecube and ordered Rogue Leader off ebay. I cant wait. :3

I was given a Wii as a wedding present (sorry, my wife and i were given it, but you know....) and I immediately bought both Rogue Leader games off ebay to play on it.

I was really shocked at how badly designed the whole thing was. Principally, the radar is really badly designed and is very hard to make sense of. You can't follow a Tie Fighter that flashes past you by following it on your radar like you can in X-Wing or gently caress even Battlefront II. So if you lose sight of the enemy you're following you basically have to look all around you to find it again.
And the graphics aren't sharp enough to be able to pick out enemy fighters a long way away, so you have to hold down a button to bring up the targeting computer, which superimposes a purple filter on the screen that highlights targets. Except you can't actually do anything whilst looking through the targeting screen.

And then the later stages when I'm dying I'm thinking to myself "this game would be ace and less tedious if it only had the interface of a game made ten years previously, which is a bad sign.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Boondock Saint posted:

Forgive me for sounding like "that guy" for a second but it's probably because you're expecting them to be the console iterations of the X-Wing or Tie Fighter series, and that's completely the wrong way to go about playing them.

Rouge Squadron is more like Star Fox or the Ace Combat series than the X-Wing/Tie Series. It's arcadey as gently caress and basically throws everything that you learned from the sim series out the window. I love the poo poo out of the PC X-wing/Tie Fighter games, but they are nothing like Rogue Squadron and if you're looking for a similar game in the Rogue Squadron series, you will definitely be disappointed.

No, I knew what to expect in part because I had played the original Rogue Squadron on PC, and I had played its sequels in the past. All I'm complaining about is that the radar in the game is completely unhelpful when it comes to the dogfighting aspect of the game. Even Battlefront II (also "arcadey as gently caress") had arrows around the side of the screen representing the direction of nearby enemies. When it comes to playing this game I basically have to look up down left right and all over until I happen upon an enemy, which gets tedious.

It's also a problem on some land missions. There's one set in a city with lots of canyons that contain generators you have to blow up, but even though they're marked on your radar, the degree of accuracy is such that you can't use it to guide yourself even into the right canyon, which lead to tedium of going down each canyon (whilst being chased by enemy fighters and shot at by turbolasers) hoping you'll stumble upon your orbjective.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

WampaLord posted:

The "Adult Themes in Star Wars" was basically everyone taking Star Wars stuff and making it raunchy. Examples - Ewok blowjobs, slash fic discussions, using Force Powers during sex, you get the idea.

This sounds doubly creepy by virtue of KJA being sat next to his wife.
The kinky roleplay they no doubt indulge in is not a pretty image.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

McGann posted:

Also: Wraith Squadron DOES rock. Thanks for that suggestions guys. I finished up Iron Fist and am moving on, but I took a break to read I, Jedi (which was good) in-between. Can't wait for the last, but I also don't want the Rogue series to end...so...bittersweet.

Be content with the foreknowledge that it arguably saves its best for last.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Chairman Capone posted:

Really? Wow, that is a pretty big change of culture than from when I was on TFN. Back then I remember Havac actually being the main pro-Traviss mod. I think he actually once banned me for voicing my irritations with Traviss. Funny to see that LOTF was so bad that it changed people's opinions so much (although I also remember TFN posters continually trying to look at LOTF with rose-colored glasses and say how "it will all make sense in the end, there's no way all these loose plot threads will be kept dangling at the end of the series!" long after they should have).

Times definitely change, then. Here is his review of Imperial Commando

Havac posted:

Uaaaaaaaaauuuugh.

I just don't know where to start. So I'll have to be scattershot about this. One, the romance. Good god, the romance. I've got nothing against romance. Love to see a little splash of romance; it can do a storyline wonders. It's missing from the current post-ROTJ EU; we've got settled couples and no fiery spark of romance establishing itself. But good gonk, not a single woman in this book can resist a hunky manly Mandalorian soldier. We go through the entire book, no hint, but at the end, "Oh, yeah, Ruu Skirata is totally into that one commando from Yayax Squad we never really see." Why? Because. Corr talks with Jilka for one minute, and she's into him. Why? Because we can't allow conflict in these complexity-phobic books; Jilka, the one person at Kyrimorut who really doesn't want to be there, the woman who basically got kidnapped, the woman who could add some tension and interest, falls for a clone boy and everything's nice now. Ny Vollen is into Skirata. Why? Because no woman of age can resist his grandfatherly charm, devotion to his children, murderous ways, and raging hypocrisy. Uthan, of all people, gets all hot and heavy with that dashing, ruggedly handsome, brilliant, and charmingly cynical Ymmij Gilamar fellow! Because they're both doctors, see, and he's got ARMOR! The wives are in the kitchen, and the women are falling for those rugged Mando men. Seriously, there's not a single woman in the entire story who is not involved with a clone. The only ones who don't get paired up are Kina Ha and Scout. And Arla, but she's insane, so she doesn't count. Next book, though, once she's cured, money says she hooks up with Jusik. Money.

It's an up-armored Twilight. Except, instead of sparkly vampire skin, it's sparkly armor. Right down to the random sports-bonding scene. I suppose the Mormons do identify with Jews.

Speaking of Jusik, he's a bitter, hypocritical, despicable asshat. Just like Kal. He saves Zey, then tells Skirata he knows the right thing to have done was to push him out an airlock. He's lost the slightest thing resembling a moral compass, yet he remains incredibly smug and self-satisfied that he's the good guy and the Jedi are evil.

And, boy, is the Jedi-are-evil shtick laid on with a trowel here. You'd think it would be less jarring in a dark times book about Imperials; it's more jarring, because it's so far overdone. It's the worst yet for sheer petty, illogical, counterfactual venom. There's an epigraph of Kina Ha explaining why Etain was the GREATEST AND TRUEST JEDI EVER because she threw herself in the way to save a man she didn't know. Imperial Commando isn't a train; it's a lollercoaster.

Speaking of lols and anti-Jedi sentiment, Holy Loly Roly is the most annoying character ever. He's a giant anti-Force-user bigot, which makes him a vaguely heroic figure to everyone in the book. This is because his family comes from Dromuund Kaas, where they were oppressed by the Prophets of the Dark Side (10 points for a POTDS reference; -100 points for it making no sense, and -100 more for being used solely in service of the book's universal and tiresome pursuit of simplistic 1-D psychological-trauma explanations for every single person's personality and actions, rather than making them interesting characters). He's a loathsome, tiresome caricature in the worst Traviss tradition, and he brings every part of the book he's in down with his over-the-top forbidden-wordiness.

I'm fairly uncomfortable with how incredibly racist the main characters are, and how comfortable the book is with that. It's like "Aww, Archie Bunker you hilarious old curmudgeon"-level with its attitude to Kal's and everyone else's rabid hatred of Jedi and Kaminoans, except they're not spouting ignorant, impotent, and not particularly vicious stereotypes; they're out there wearing sheets burning crosses in people's yards. But because they find one or two they think are "Pretty OK for a ______, since they're not like all the other ______s, the bad ______s" they're really not so bad.

The potshot at Denning is just petty, unprofessional, and ridiculous. I'm amazed it got through editing, and I was vaguely embarrassed to read it. Not for me; for her.

So, the mythosaur skeleton isn't a skeleton; it's an oversized replica built as a tourist-trap amusement park, and sold to the Imperials for huge money on claims it's a sacred temple because lol Mandoz are awesome. Traviss, you really don't need to aggressively retcon every single aspect of the EU about Mandalorians you don't like. Accept it's a weird place; succumb to its quirky charm. The person who doesn't get the joke and stomps around angry shouting at the joker is the one who comes off foolish.

Traviss needs to stop mistaking conversation for plot. She was so good about this in No Prisoners, but she's backslid to as bad as she's ever been. Nothing happens in 501st. Nothing. After a whole book of thinking about it, Darman and Niner don't escape. After a whole book of worrying about her, Arla isn't cured. After a whole plotline of wondering what to do with them and trying to shove them off on Altis, the Jedi are all still there at the end of the book. After a whole book of "Hey you old people get married" Ny and Kal haven't decided if they're into each other one way or the other. It's endless pages of Kal and his gang sitting around talking. And the actual Imperial Commando plotline is no better; it's about three missions with little actual action that serve solely as backdrops to Niner and Darman's angsting. It's not a plot; it's a disjointed mess desperately lying to you saying "I'm a plot" and knowing you're not buying it.

I'm pretty sure suicide isn't supposed to have me rolling my eyes.

Gibad was a terrible decision. Like a month after the declaration of Empire, they're going in and wiping out all life on a dissenting planet with a plague, and then bragging about it on the holonet and how the entire planet had it coming to them because one person from the planet engineered a disease for the Seppies. I mean, I realize it gave us some heavy-handed trauma for Uthan to moan about and never actually use to lead to anything even remotely interesting (can't have that), but this is just stupid. This is the Empire ABY, not twenty years BBY. And, of course, Uthan wants to wipe out Coruscant in revenge, and no one raises a moral peep, because it's okay to eliminate an entire innocent world to get back at Palpatine (oh, wait, "Palps" -- let's leave the internet shorthand on the internet, huh? Gonkdammit), since all those people on it are bastards anyway. I realize Traviss has a very . . . dyspeptic view of humanity, but really, I don't care. It does not improve the book.

Why is Palpatine spouting nonsense about taking over the galaxy to his secretary droid? That's just remarkably stupid. I feel dumber having even considered the idea that such a line could be written.

It's really hard to write books in a fictional universe when you actively reject the entire setting. See, the setting says, you have to train people as Jedi because untrained Force sensitives are dangerous. Traviss says, no, untrained Force sensitives are absolutely harmless, and it's only those pesky Jedi and their training that puts the galaxy in danger. The setting says, the Jedi are good folks who treat the clones well, and only accepted the army because they had to save the Republic. Traviss says, the Jedi are evil exploitative conscienceless bastards who don't care about the clones, and they're all reprehensible, and any Jedi who got shot had it coming to them, and the good Jedi know that. The problem is, she's not interested in the fictional framework; in maintaining the setting. She's not even interested in subverting the setting within the framework of the setting. She's interested in tearing it down wholesale and building a new setting saying how everything you knew was wrong. This is really not an attitude that works in franchise fiction.

I'm sure I'm missing stuff, but it ain't positive stuff. I, for perhaps the first time ever, have absolutely nothing positive to say about a book. I can't think of a thing. 1.2. And the .2 is for not ruining Scout. Which is not the same as a positive; it's merely the absence of a negative. I am astounded by how thoroughly bad this book is. There are books I despise more. There are no books more unmitigatedly, thoroughly, and consistently awful, though.

So whilst he may have been a fan and a censor at some stage, he clearly found IC to be his least favourite book ever, and can spot that Traviss's style isn't the so-called "reasonable to question preconceptions" strategy the simpleminded commend her for, but is instead fallacious and incredibly dumb.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Pththya-lyi posted:

If you mary kate olsen porn really want to sperg, recall that neither Han, Leia, nor Chewie required protection from decompression while they walked around inside that giant space slug in shawty is a teen Empire. See also the TV Tropes article james bond sex puns

It was a big asteroid so it would be reasonable to think it held enough atmosphere to avoid needing a spacesuit. Or something.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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Otterspace posted:

I'm just happy that the Han impersonation was so good.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Jedi Knight Luigi posted:

...Is that guy (2:10) supposed to be Chewbacca?

Hey, it's a high school musical.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

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Chairman Capone posted:

I mean - do you think this is just a cash cow reason, or does Lucas actually think the prequels are the better Star Wars movies?

I think the criticism has made him even more stubborn. Like the pope.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Hemp Knight posted:

From everything I've read, the prequels are star wars as Lucas wanted it to be. On ANH and ESB he had to compromise and collaborate. Jedi was more in line with what he wanted, but the PT is pure Lucas..

There's a really excellent fan-made documentary called that shows examples of the original edit of the first film and just how close it was to being a shambles. I'm annoyed I can't remember its name but I have it somewhere and might try to dig it out.
The trench run climactic ending was particularly reworked. In the original script, the sequence of events goes:

"I have you now" ----> Millennium Falcon to the recue -----> Luke flying down the trench ----> "use the Force Luke" ----> targeting computer off, boom

That would've completely ruined the sense of urgency you see in the final cut.

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DougieFFC
Mar 19, 2004

We are Fulham, super Fulham, we are Fulham, fuck Ch*lsea.

Kingtheninja posted:

Wasn't the live action series supposed to be set closer to the OT? Maybe that's why it still hasn't happened...

I think it's in limbo at the moment because of production overheads etc. Another reason Lucas prefers CGI to live actors and sets. Because he's loving lazy.

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