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Vaginal Vagrant
Jan 12, 2007
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I'm a sovereign citizen and I'm Rome.

The Queen claims descent from Cerdic, 6th century king of Wessex, who claimed descent from Wotan.

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I always thought the swan would be larger

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Da Vinci (IIRC) painted a version where the swan is fuckin huge

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Like I've seen swans IRL and that swan is dinky
Maybe there's something going on with that

edit: seriously google image search "swan attack" those things are huge

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Was there any panic or anticipation about the world ending when Constantinople fell to the Turks?

Even though the Byzantine Empire had basically become a rump state that was an Ottoman vassal by that point, I think the fall of the city was still seen in near apocalyptic terms in Latin Christendom.

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Like I've seen swans IRL and that swan is dinky
Maybe there's something going on with that

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Even though the Byzantine Empire had basically become a rump state that was an Ottoman vassal by that point, I think the fall of the city was still seen in near apocalyptic terms in Latin Christendom.

Certainly pissed off the Italian merchants, who lost those sweet trade routes.

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Certainly pissed off the Italian merchants, who lost those sweet trade routes.

They probably should have thought of that hundreds of years earlier!

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Wasn't there a whole deal with the Roman empire where the bulk of the population in outlying territories had a fair amount of local identity and it's only the ruling aristocracy that would end up carping about how Roman they were or could be?

Which starts making the fall of Rome seem less bad because ultimately a loss of administrative power for these nobles who can't even be bothered to protect the people who they basically own who work for their benefit just meant that now the localities could try shopping around for better defenders directly and their allegiance could finally do some good for them.

It was even worse with Constantine's immortal city that would persevere and patiently wait while the rest of the empire was overrun so they could re-extend their control after the heat went down like cancer in remission.

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Was there any panic or anticipation about the world ending when Constantinople fell to the Turks?

I've heard it was one of the driving forces for countries to start trying for overseas trading routes because then the muslims had total control over the silk road with no major christian state to bully them.

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"What is the modern Rome" is an active field of theological debate among Muslims because Rome is present in the endtime prophecies. Leading theories are Turkey and Russia

Huh, so like weird Christian sects are about Israel.

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Wasn't there a whole deal with the Roman empire where the bulk of the population in outlying territories had a fair amount of local identity and it's only the ruling aristocracy that would end up carping about how Roman they were or could be?

Which starts making the fall of Rome seem less bad because ultimately a loss of administrative power for these nobles who can't even be bothered to protect the people who they basically own who work for their benefit just meant that now the localities could try shopping around for better defenders directly and their allegiance could finally do some good for them.


After finishing the history of Rome, I was left under the impression that it was really hard for Romans to recruit troops in the west since able bodied men would be hid from recruiters. You can't fight a war with no armies. I'm not sure how much of a factor that played, but i'm sure it did not help.

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Rome fell because they stopped loving swans.

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I always thought the swan would be larger

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Even though the Byzantine Empire had basically become a rump state that was an Ottoman vassal by that point, I think the fall of the city was still seen in near apocalyptic terms in Latin Christendom.

I should have clarified, I was thinking more about the reaction in the Islamic world. I could be wrong but I thought that in Islam the fall of the Roman empire was supposed to be a sign of the end times.

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Rome fell because they stopped loving swans.

I believe this is essentially Gibbon's argument

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The prophecies require Rome to not only exist but to thrive. There's dozens of signs of the coming end times but two of them are "Rome controls a majority of the human population" and "Rome and Muslims fight first a joint war against a common enemy, and then a war against each other". The Roman empire might have caused a crisis of faith in some muslims maybe but it'd take some seriously sideways thinking to see it as a portent of the end times. I'm sure some people tried though; a bunch of the signs are just generic moral degradation that you could read into any time period if you wanted to.

All this from the wikipedia entry I'm not an expert on the subject

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I'm sure tons of people made the connection that Rome became a middle eastern empire not to long after that started worshipping a middle eastern god, instead of Jupiter like their conquering ancestors did

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Nov 4, 2008

Logically, aesthetics and ethics are identical. If we are to understand the ethical rules of society, it is aesthetics that we must study.

The belief that there would be a climactic battle with the Roman successor was also important to the Islamic State’s political philosophy and strategy. The battle was supposed to occur at a specific location in Syria which the Islamic state put a lot of effort into conquering and controlling. Like literally they had entire offensives designed around facilitating coming of the end times.

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Is it possible that "End Times" is either a mistranslation, or does not mean what we think it means?

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Is it possible that "End Times" is either a mistranslation, or does not mean what we think it means?

No, unless there's been a thousand year conspiracy to hide a different original work.

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Apr 30, 2009

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The belief that there would be a climactic battle with the Roman successor was also important to the Islamic State’s political philosophy and strategy. The battle was supposed to occur at a specific location in Syria which the Islamic state put a lot of effort into conquering and controlling. Like literally they had entire offensives designed around facilitating coming of the end times.

I can't find the original source but I could have sworn I saw it somewhere that the fall of Constantinople/Rome was a sign. I have no idea if it's reliable but this site lists both "The Romans increase in number" and "Constantinople falls" as signs of the end of the world which seem contradictory but I guess that's prophecy for ya.

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There's a bunch of other fun ones:

-The Euphrates will uncover a mountain of gold.
-Large numbers of women.
-Shepherds competing in the construction of tall buildings
-The prevalence of musical instruments

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The belief that there would be a climactic battle with the Roman successor was also important to the Islamic State’s political philosophy and strategy. The battle was supposed to occur at a specific location in Syria which the Islamic state put a lot of effort into conquering and controlling. Like literally they had entire offensives designed around facilitating coming of the end times.

i mean if you let the russians be Rome because of religion and let the russian puppets in syria be equal to real russians...

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Feb 18, 2009



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They still need to grab a few more provinces in North Africa before they can form Rome imo

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Tunisia is too un-subjugated.

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Da Vinci (IIRC) painted a version where the swan is fuckin huge

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After finishing the history of Rome, I was left under the impression that it was really hard for Romans to recruit troops in the west since able bodied men would be hid from recruiters. You can't fight a war with no armies. I'm not sure how much of a factor that played, but i'm sure it did not help.

In general the consolidation of large estates and the resulting decline of an independent peasantry was a problem for both the western and eastern halves of the empire, but it was only an existential threat for the former, which was much less urbanized than the east and dominated by a small number of highly self-interested elites.

It's a complicated dynamic. In broad strokes the late Roman state and army was enormous and expensive. This requires taxation; established and well connected landowners can pay or shirk the burden; the state is forced to squeeze the free peasants; this drives many to sell themselves, literally or figuratively, to patrons who can protect them; etc, etc

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Squalid
Nov 4, 2008

Logically, aesthetics and ethics are identical. If we are to understand the ethical rules of society, it is aesthetics that we must study.

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i mean if you let the russians be Rome because of religion and let the russian puppets in syria be equal to real russians...

Found a quote with more detail:

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quote:

The Islamic State has attached great importance to the Syrian city of Dabiq, near Aleppo. It named its propaganda magazine after the town, and celebrated madly when (at great cost) it conquered Dabiq’s strategically unimportant plains. It is here, the Prophet reportedly said, that the armies of Rome will set up their camp. The armies of Islam will meet them, and Dabiq will be Rome’s Waterloo or its Antietam.

“Dabiq is basically all farmland,” one Islamic State supporter recently tweeted. “You could imagine large battles taking place there.” The Islamic State’s propagandists drool with anticipation of this event, and constantly imply that it will come soon. The state’s magazine quotes Zarqawi as saying, “The spark has been lit here in Iraq, and its heat will continue to intensify … until it burns the crusader armies in Dabiq.” A recent propaganda video shows clips from Hollywood war movies set in medieval times—perhaps because many of the prophecies specify that the armies will be on horseback or carrying ancient weapons.
. . .
The Prophetic narration that foretells the Dabiq battle refers to the enemy as Rome. Who “Rome” is, now that the pope has no army, remains a matter of debate. But Cerantonio makes a case that Rome meant the Eastern Roman empire, which had its capital in what is now Istanbul. We should think of Rome as the Republic of Turkey—the same republic that ended the last self-identified caliphate, 90 years ago. Other Islamic State sources suggest that Rome might mean any infidel army, and the Americans will do nicely.

After its battle in Dabiq, Cerantonio said, the caliphate will expand and sack Istanbul. Some believe it will then cover the entire Earth, but Cerantonio suggested its tide may never reach beyond the Bosporus. An anti-Messiah, known in Muslim apocalyptic literature as Dajjal, will come from the Khorasan region of eastern Iran and kill a vast number of the caliphate’s fighters, until just 5,000 remain, cornered in Jerusalem. Just as Dajjal prepares to finish them off, Jesus—the second-most-revered prophet in Islam—will return to Earth, spear Dajjal, and lead the Muslims to victory.

Eschatological narratives have always been important to modern Salafi jihadism. For example survivors of the 1979 seizure of the Grand Mosque described how the entire operation was predicated on the assumption that the Mahdi had returned and divine intervention would overthrow their enemies and initiative the end times.

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listen sir I have been to the Dali museum in St Petersburg and I ain't seen any swans loving houses there.

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I'm very late to this but I'm so jealous that you guys got taught anything about history. I did a little bit of Japanese history in like grade 4 and even then it was like WOW SAMURAI SO COOL WOW DISNEYLAND WOW THEY SLEEP IN BOXES??? Apart from that we learned that the turks are all evil, evil cunts for shooting the anzacs and the anzacs are super cool and good for being stubborn and running up cliffs into machine guns for our British overlods. We didn't even learn about the loving pacific in WW2 or about our participation in Vietnam or gently caress all about how Captain Cook came here and shot some Aboriginals who were just trying to be nice or that we were still using them as slaves and taking their kids in places up to the star wars sex video 1970s. Captain Cook is portrayed as a cool dude.

I seriously can't beleive we didn't learn about WW2 in school, Japan bombed Darwin and sent subs to Sydney and there are still a lot of bunkers and forts all over the islands/rivers for repelling the expected Japanese invasion, but we learn nothing. New Zealand is the same from that I've been told. My mate drives past bunkers with roadblocks ready to roll into place every day to get to work.

And it's gotten worse since I was in school. The current government mandated that kids just get taught to worship the anzacs. We lost Gallipoli massage turned into sex hard and its our national pride lmao. Our country views history as irrelevent. I would have killed for some ancient history in school, but it wasn't an option until year 11 and 12, and at that point you can't take interesting subjects, you have to take subjects that will get you into uni or drop out and learn a trade.

I learned about the Byzantines from AOE2 and the ERE from somewhere else but it was only within the last year that I learned they were the same

E: Let me put it this way, there's more historical info on Tripadvisor than there is in the Australian education system.

Hi I'm a kiwi.

We were certainly taught that the Anzacs were cool and good and heroic, but also that we got our asses kicked. I don't remember any demonisation of the Turks though, from what I recall they were pretty matter of fact that they were just the guys on the other side and that war is pretty tragic for everyone involved. That might depend a bit on where you go to school and the personal politics/prejudices of your teacher though.

Also pretty surprised that you guys can't take arts classes in high school and get still get into uni. Like, don't you guys have BAs over there? Here grades are grades, you can do whatever papers you like and as long as you pass enough you can go study whatever you like at uni.

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