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INTJ Mastermind
Dec 30, 2004

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Nothing more than a nasty bruise thank God. Lucky it didn't break the skin. I don't know how I could have told the doctor and still kept my oaths.

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May 4, 2007

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I guess that my question then pertains to the other people in office, what we would call Grand Master of Ceremonies(the person who most of the time deals with pledges, new membership, and ritual in general), the Grand Procurator, who deals with enforcement of the rules, and punishments, which most organizations would refer to as a Vice President, and a Grand Master, who is the main driving force of the chapter, or lodge, much as a president would. While I understand that secretaries and treasurers hold a certain amount of influence through their positions, what about the most high positions? is there much turnover from year to year, or is it primarily driven by a select few?

The Master is the executive officer of the lodge during his term and the Senior Warden can be seen as a vice presidential figure. In the lodge I currently attend we have an appointed Lodge Instructor (Ritual Officer) and a Mentoring Committee which works with new members. A lot of work is parceled out as committee assignments and membership on these committees can become static over time.

In the blue lodge, in the US States I've traveled in, elected officers hold one year terms; as mentioned secretaries and treasurers are usually re-elected several times. For the other elected offices there is a progressive line - starting about 4 positions down from the Worshipful Master, so long as one does a good job in the lower positions you're usually elected to the next highest office at the end of your current term.

So the model is set up to be consistently bringing different people up through the line and into the Masters chair, but is somewhat dependent on a new members joining at a certain rate to avoid repeat office holders.

There tends to be a split between, usually newer, members interested in holding office and members who are less active or are have already held office and are focused on a committee, ritual or a particular charitable project.

None of this prevents each lodge's Supreme and most Wise Council of Venerable Elders from exercising the influence that comes from having belonged to an organization for decades; in both lodges I've attended their agenda has been limited to insisting that coffee be brewed to the consistency and strength of brown dishwater. In other places this cabal may have more nefarious motives.

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None of this prevents each lodge's Supreme and most Wise Council of Venerable Elders from exercising the influence that comes from having belonged to an organization for decades; in both lodges I've attended their agenda has been limited to insisting that coffee be brewed to the consistency and strength of brown dishwater. In other places this cabal may have more nefarious motives.

Brother you hit a key note. I learned the hard way at both lodges that I'm a member of, that if the coffee isn't so black that you can nearly chew it that you will suffer the wrath of no less than three Past Masters.

quote:

In other places this cabal may have more nefarious motives.


I'm paraphrasing a conversation I had with a member of my lodge. A little background: this guy is sort of like my Freemason hero. He knows the ritual inside out and backwards. He even has an errata on the REDACTED. He's also a 33rd degree Scottish rite mason and the local Scottish rite has a big painting of him on the wall

Taking a small break from working on my staircase lecture
(Bob) How many people show up to stated meeting?
(me) I'd say about a dozen, maybe 16.
(bob) That's right, and if four or five of your friends joined you could effectively take over the lodge.
(me) That doesn't sound very maso...
(Bob) It's the reality of the situation!
(me) That's true...
(Bob) -Just looks me in the eye with a smug grin and we return to the ritual work.

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I've heard this from many different people online, but then I've read about the popularity of the "one-day mason" classes in a few states. While I understand the idea of learning as much as you can at each step, is there really a benefit to taking time between, or did you learn more after and looking back on it?

I guess in many ways, its going to be at the preference of the local lodge, but they're doing them in 11 cities in Ohio this year, expecting thousands of attendees.

I firmly believe that there is a more value in progressing through the degrees in the traditional manner. I think it's a better experience for the candidate if the degree work is done for them alone as opposed to a class of candidates. I would be disappointed in a lodge that expressed a preference for sending candidates to these events instead of doing the work themselves. Performing the work allows the lodge to re-visit and re-examine the degrees, which is always rewarding experience for me at least.

Doing the ritual proficiency the old way also lays a better foundation for ones later ritual work and engages more veteran members of the fraternity as mentors, forming stronger bonds between new and old members. Finally, I dislike that it creates two different classes of Mason in terms of their initiatory experience.

That said; every time this comes up for discussion supporters of the "all the way in one day" events point out that retention rates for members joining this way are no worse than those that join the traditional way. I also have to say that I've met Brothers who joined the Fraternity in this way who have been exemplary Masons, so its not a clear case that it doesn't work or harms the candidate.

tldr: I am a curmudgeon. The old ways were better. Get off my lawn.

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COOL CORN
Jun 1, 2003




Buglord

Brothers,

Wishing you all the best for this holiday season, no matter what you are celebrating, or if you are even celebrating at all.

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Do some atheists/agnostics sometimes feign belief to be accepted in a masonic order?

What happens if they're caught?

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Do some atheists/agnostics sometimes feign belief to be accepted in a masonic order?

What happens if they're caught?

I don't know any. I'm pretty close to being an Agnostic but I simply state I'm a Deist (which is true) so I don't rock the boat. If you were an Atheist at the time you took your obligation I imagine you'd have to get the boot. If you become an Atheist later and get found out they'd probably boot you. The thing is, if you're an Atheist you'd be bored with our ceremonies, and I doubt you'd pay dues to something that didn't interest you.

All that said, an Atheist probably wouldn't stick around long.

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Sorry for the double post.

Today I visited many brothers from my lodge who were in the hospital, in assisted living, a nursing home, and/or who I had strong reason to believe that they would be alone on Christmas eve. I am happy that I visited these guys, many of them were World War II vets and all of them were exceptional people in their own right.

If we all look after each other the world can be a little better and a little brighter.

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Do some atheists/agnostics sometimes feign belief to be accepted in a masonic order?

What happens if they're caught?

Guilty-ish as charged, sort-of-ish.

Born and raised a Catholic, then at 11 had a crisis of faith, and became an Atheist. Once I grew up, I realized that Atheists don't have the answers any more than religious people do, and I have a deep belief that there is an architect I just don't know anything about her. So I became by definition a Deist, though legally you never stop being a Catholic.

I was married in a Catholic church and both my kids were baptised into the Catholic religion, they are a good organization, great charities, educational institutions and for many years were one of the few bodies that championed human rights. Just don't leave your kids with them unattended and everything is ok.

So, before joining Masonry I was asked if I believed in a higher being, I truthfully said yes, and truthfully added, I am a Catholic. Technically I didn't lie, technically I didn't tell the whole truth either. That was nearly 10 years ago.

When joining the Scottish Rite, which is open to Christians only, I was asked whether I was a Christian. I said no, I am not a Christian, I am a Catholic. Which is the truth, I was then asked if I followed Christian principles, and I truthfully answered yes. Again I didn't lie.

Now, here is the thing. I am a committed Mason, I go to numerous meetings a month sometimes too many. I am there for my fellow Masons, and I strongly believe that I have their respect. My religious beliefs or lack of them, don't play a part in Masonry, and many of them know my true beliefs and they don't care.

Then again, I am the kind of Mason that has no problem with a wiccan joining, or a Satanist for that matter, as long as they are nice people. Though I would make fun of the Satanist for choosing to worship God's hired help, I just couldn't help myself.

edit: Freemasonry isn't a religion, so in my opinion your beliefs have little bearing in you becoming a good man and a good mason. Freemasonry is about the work you put into it, you will get out what you put in, and religion has nothing to do with that.

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Thank you for your answers.

Do some people join a Masonic order for influence or to gain connections?
Does it really work?

In France(I know not official Freemasons) we have or have had several government Ministers who are Freemasons.

Edit:Another question, is there a rivalry between Traditional Masonic orders and Continental Masonic orders or is it just "we pretend these guys don't exist" on both sides?

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Thank you for your answers.

Do some people join a Masonic order for influence or to gain connections?
Does it really work?

In France(I know not official Freemasons) we have or have had several government Ministers who are Freemasons.

Edit:Another question, is there a rivalry between Traditional Masonic orders and Continental Masonic orders or is it just "we pretend these guys don't exist" on both sides?

Yes...a lot do join to gain connections, from my experience they stop showing up once they realize that we're not in Victorian England anymore. People usually nod at them and smile, and then excuse themselves as they need to freshen up their beer.

Yes a lot of people in high office are Freemasons.

"We pretend these guys don't exist" is pretty dead on.

Most of the time spent by a busy mason is juggling their calendar, figuring out which suit to wear, and which regalia to put in their case. If you have an office in lodge, a lot of the time is spent rehearsing your lines.

Most of us are really too busy to find out what they're doing over in another suburb, much less what's happening in a different country.

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When joining the Scottish Rite, which is open to Christians only

Is that an Australia thing? Here it is definitely not.

Also most of the Founders we have who were also Masons were Deists, so at least in the US you wouldn't need to "hide" that (although you'd never be asked either).

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Do some people join a Masonic order for influence or to gain connections?
Does it really work?

So it's a new thread, which means I get to tell my story again. I didn't join Masonry for the connections to people (at least not living people), but I made some anyway.

I was Raised in December of 2007 in California, where I lived my entire life. In 2008, my wife and I moved to New Hampshire (which is an entirely different, non-Masonicly-related story). We had no friends or family here at all. We literally knew no one.

The first chance I could, I attended a local lodge meeting. I immediately had 200 friends. That's not an exaggeration, either, every one of the Brothers there spoke with me and offered help if I needed it. I even got some advice for job-hunting.

So while I did not set out to make connections, and certainly these aren't business connections (although I've seen those occur), it's almost impossible to avoid.

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Edit:Another question, is there a rivalry between Traditional Masonic orders and Continental Masonic orders or is it just "we pretend these guys don't exist" on both sides?

I would just like to state for the record that so-called "Continental Freemasonry" is not at all representative of Masonry on the European continent, regardless of how they choose to style themselves. There are a handful of countries in Europe where "continental" lodges are the majority, but everywhere else is overwhelmingly regular. I wish they would call themselves something else, as this often seems to cause confusion (it would be even better if they didn't call themselves "Freemasons" at all, of course, but you can't have everything).

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Is that an Australia thing? Here it is definitely not.

It's like that in the UK as well. I'm not sure about other countries.

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It's like that in the UK as well. I'm not sure about other countries.

My father is 32º Scottish Rite, as is my uncle, and as were my grandfather and his two brothers. I'm not, but it's something I'd like to look into, maybe in this coming year.

My grandfather and his brothers were raised in Harmonia Lodge in West Palm Beach, and my father and his brother in Palm Lodge (now Palmwood Lodge) in Lake Worth, and I was raised in Boca-Delray Lodge. All in Palm Beach County, Florida.

(We're Jewish, in case you missed that.)

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In France(I know not official Freemasons) we have or have had several government Ministers who are Freemasons.

I think it's worth mentioning that there is a regular grand lodge in France, and thus not all Freemasons in France are irregular. The Grande Orient de France I think is the irregular one; I forget how the regular one calls itself.

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I think it's worth mentioning that there is a regular grand lodge in France, and thus not all Freemasons in France are irregular. The Grande Orient de France I think is the irregular one; I forget how the regular one calls itself.

Yeah but it's the biggest one according to Wikipedia, and the one I've always heard of on the subject of Franc-Maçonnerie.

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I think it's worth mentioning that there is a regular grand lodge in France, and thus not all Freemasons in France are irregular. The Grande Orient de France I think is the irregular one; I forget how the regular one calls itself.

Actually, the regular grand lodge in France has also been declared clandestine due to fuckery with their grand offices. As far as I know the only regular lodges working in France are working under the United Grand Lodge of England.

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So a few years back I read up on the secret rituals (purely out of curiosity) on some crazy fundamentalist MASONS ARE SATANISTS website. Would this be a problem if I tried to join a lodge?

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So a few years back I read up on the secret rituals (purely out of curiosity) on some crazy fundamentalist MASONS ARE SATANISTS website. Would this be a problem if I tried to join a lodge?

No, although it might be slightly less exciting. Part of the fun for me, anyway, was not knowing what was going to happen.

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Actually, the regular grand lodge in France has also been declared clandestine due to fuckery with their grand offices. As far as I know the only regular lodges working in France are working under the United Grand Lodge of England.

Welp, so much for that I guess. Got a link about that somewhere by chance?

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Also most of the Founders we have who were also Masons were Deists, so at least in the US you wouldn't need to "hide" that (although you'd never be asked either).
This is oft claimed but not to my knowledge true. Franklin is the closest, but more so in his youth, and he more often identified himself as a Christian with Deist leanings. It is also the case that Deism was sometimes controversial in those times. I actually think that Franklin stopped attending lodge after a Deist was kicked out for not believing in a God that rewards good and punishes evil.

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This is oft claimed but not to my knowledge true.

Pretty sure there's a lot of solid evidence for this, actually.

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This is oft claimed but not to my knowledge true. Franklin is the closest, but more so in his youth, and he more often identified himself as a Christian with Deist leanings. It is also the case that Deism was sometimes controversial in those times. I actually think that Franklin stopped attending lodge after a Deist was kicked out for not believing in a God that rewards good and punishes evil.

Well he stopped claiming he was a Deist because it wasn't popular. That doesn't mean he wasn't a Deist.

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On a phone, so quick reply, but here is a blog post about UGLE de-recognition of the GLNF.

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Pretty sure there's a lot of solid evidence for this, actually.
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Well he stopped claiming he was a Deist because it wasn't popular. That doesn't mean he wasn't a Deist.
I'm not saying that isn't possible, but I don't really think it's true to how he presented himself. And while we was the sort to care about public opinion, he was also the sort to argue for his favored beliefs.

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My father is 32º Scottish Rite, as is my uncle, and as were my grandfather and his two brothers. I'm not, but it's something I'd like to look into, maybe in this coming year.

My grandfather and his brothers were raised in Harmonia Lodge in West Palm Beach, and my father and his brother in Palm Lodge (now Palmwood Lodge) in Lake Worth, and I was raised in Boca-Delray Lodge. All in Palm Beach County, Florida.

(We're Jewish, in case you missed that.)

Oh, I know the US SR doesn't have any religious requirements. I was just wondering how many other countries do, as it seems to be pretty widespread.

Edit: I'm only talking about the Scottish Rite, not Masonry in general. It seems that a lot of countries require you to be Christian to join it.

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mrbill
Oct 14, 2002



We try to dissuade guys from petitioning if we think they're only doing it for the business/networking connection possibilities, as that's not we're here for.

Sure, I'll prefer to give my Brothers business before anybody else - but that just might mean cheap oil changes in my car or cupcakes at wholesale instead of retail price. We have a lot of law enforcement officers in my Lodge, but if one of them happened to pull me over, I would expect them to give me a ticket if I deserved it no different than anyone else.

Sure, we have guys who make it through initiation, realize there's no SUPER GRAND SECRET (that they couldn't have looked up on the Internet in the first place), get bored, and never come back again - but fortunately they're a minority and most of them stick with it and eventually discover the true benefits of Freemasonry.

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This might be abit of a personal question..

But at what age did you decide to join? And how did you found out about the Freemasons in the first place? How did your surrounding (friends, family) react to this?

I am curious about this because the Freemasons aren't really that well known where I come from (Holland), and I know nobody who is a brother. I feel abit hold back to visit a Lodge, as I feel I am abit too young (21) and thus might not be able to contribute much.

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When I was very young, I knew my grandfather was a Mason but not what that meant; he went to his meetings on Tuesdays and that was about it. In 2002 when he died he left me his Masonic memorabilia, which was a box filled with old pictures, aprons, epaulets, rings, pins, and a few books I couldn't read. It made me interested in what it was all about, but I didn't really look seriously into joining when a good buddy of mine expressed an interest a few years later.

I was initiated, passed, and raised in 2007 at the age of 25. It really seems longer than just five years ago, honestly, because I dove in pretty much from day one and became an officer almost out of the gate. For the past five+ years I've spent most every Thursday at Lodge working on ritual, coaching candidates, and performing our degree ceremonies. It may seem like a lot of time, but I wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it, and I feel I get far more out of it than I put into it.

My family didn't really have any reaction when I mentioned I was joining, but my mom suggested that her late father would be happy, moreso when I became Master of the Lodge. As far as my friends, I really try to avoid talking about Masonry around them as I'm of the mindset that if they are interested, they'll ask about it, and I'm more than happy to answer any of their questions. What is nice is that a few of my friends have joined, as they've seen the positive changes in my life, and like a stronger connection with the local community.

As for feeling too young, we had a few guys join at 18, several at 22, et cetera. If you can hold a conversation, and enjoy the company of good people, you can contribute. The Lodges in Holland fall under the "Grand Orient of the Netherlands," whose website is nude straight men pictures; they should be able to help you find a few local Lodges, though it sounds like Freemasonry isn't as prevalent there as it is here in the United States.

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This might be abit of a personal question..

But at what age did you decide to join? And how did you found out about the Freemasons in the first place? How did your surrounding (friends, family) react to this?

I am curious about this because the Freemasons aren't really that well known where I come from (Holland), and I know nobody who is a brother. I feel abit hold back to visit a Lodge, as I feel I am abit too young (21) and thus might not be able to contribute much.

I was 41 when I joined, and I'd known about the Freemasons for a very long time, one of my uncles was one. I had one of my friends sponsor me, as he was the reason I joined, and one of my neighbours whom I'd known for about 30 years. Once I became a Freemasons, they started coming out of the woodwork, at my wedding, which was about 27 years ago, there were at least 6 freemasons in attendance, that I had no clue about. It wasn't until I was a freemason myself that they commented on their own status.

21, is just the right age, and so is 31, and 41, and even 51, 61 and 71. I've met a wide range of Masons all of different ages. It's never too early to join, and never too late.

You're not expected to contribute much, because a candidate doesn't know anything. An apprentice, the first step of being a Mason, only contributes by making the Lodge PERFECT. A lodge of only experienced Master Masons is not complete, their job is to teach, to instruct, to train others, without someone to train they are just a regular lodge. Master Masons need apprentices for the lodge to be complete, thus a 21 year old apprentice contributes a lot just by being there.

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This might be abit of a personal question..

But at what age did you decide to join? And how did you found out about the Freemasons in the first place? How did your surrounding (friends, family) react to this?

I am curious about this because the Freemasons aren't really that well known where I come from (Holland), and I know nobody who is a brother. I feel abit hold back to visit a Lodge, as I feel I am abit too young (21) and thus might not be able to contribute much.

I decided to join around 30 but that was after about 20 years of waiting for my inner voice to say I was ready.

My friends weren't all that surprised and wanted to know what took me so long. About 5 or 6 men whom I already knew just joined or joined in the same period, thsoe were some pleasant surprises.

We will be having an evening for those interested in the lodge building in Zaandam in a few weeks (our building in Amsterdam is being renovated) so how about you pm me about this?
Our lodge has people of all ages join, sometimes 19, sometimes 60+. Most joining are beginning 30s, no clue why that is. Another lodge I visited last month in Leiden mostly had people joining in their 40s, 50s so it varies.

I forgot to tell you about my families response which were all supportive. Their reasoning was that it is an assembly to improve yourself, there is no reason to oppose that.

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I was 44 when I joined, but had been interested for 20 or so years before taking the plunge. I was ready to join at 34, but some racial issues had to be dealt with before I would join. In retrospect, I wish I had joined earlier, and took part in the change, rather than waiting for it to happen.
Either way, it's certainly one of the best decisions I've ever made.

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I joined at 26.

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COOL CORN
Jun 1, 2003




Buglord

Hm let's see, how old am I now? ... I guess I was 25 when I joined. My family took some easing into it, since they're Pentecostal Fox-News-watching conservative Christians.

Basically, I wrote a 5-page essay debunking all the weird anti-Christian myths surrounding Masonry, and my dad responded with "hm, well I still don't approve, but do what you want."

Whatever, my life, not his!

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I joined when I was 25. Even though I have basically no relatives that are masons everyone I knew was sort of like "It took you long enough..." I don't know why either, I never talked about masonry or showed an interest in it until a month or so before I put in my paperwork.

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I joined when I was 19. A lot of my family were members but they weren't active, in fact, when I joined was when my most of them actually started going back to lodge. It was totally a worthwhile thing to do when I was that age but results my vary and like anyone else that asks in this thread you should spend some time checking into all of the lodges in your area to see if you get along with the members before petitioning.

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mrbill
Oct 14, 2002



I knew my Grandfather was a Mason; he had the sticker on his car and wore a big ring - but that's all I knew, and for years I thought Masons was just something that "old guys" did. He'd wanted me to get involved in Demolay when I was younger (13-15), but I never had time and it fell by the wayside.

I remained curious throughout the years, and finally got around to making some inquiries in 2008, and petitioned my home Lodge in August of '08 at the age of 34. Had I known how it would improve my life, I would have done it years earlier - but then honestly I think everything ended up perfect timing-wise and with my personal maturity level and so forth.

I was Raised to Master Mason on my birthday, November 5th, 2009. This was after a very difficult year (death of my wife, etc) that my Masonic brethren helped me make it through. I was proud to be able to wear one of my Grandfather's Masonic rings after I was Raised.

In 2010, I was given my Lodge's equivalent of their "Mason of the Year" award, and was just completely flabbergasted by it. I like to think that my Grandfather was looking down on me proudly from somewhere. 8-)

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In 2010, I was given my Lodge's equivalent of their "Mason of the Year" award, and was just completely flabbergasted by it. I like to think that my Grandfather was looking down on me proudly from somewhere. 8-)

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