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My journey started years ago in the predecessor to this thread. I had dinner at few times at local lodges, then life got confusing. I got laid off, moved in with a friend in Bothell, and after what seemed like an eternity I finally turned in my petition thanks to this thread, and a particular Brother from... Norway? Either way, now I'm an EAM and all of the secrets of Freemasonry are mine! Bwahahaha!

Nah, it's cool, it gives me a sense of brotherhood that I never had growing up, inlets me give back to the community, and the food kicks rear end. Win-Win for me.

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Effingham
Aug 1, 2006

The bells of the Gion Temple echo the impermanence of all things...


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I was asked whether I was a Christian. I said no, I am not a Christian, I am a Catholic. Which is the truth,

WTH? Catholics *are* Christian.

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That is really cool.

Unrelated, remember how I posted that I visited some old brothers on Christmas eve? One of them (one I was very fond of) passed on just eight or nine hours after my visit. I'd like to think that the GAOTU wanted a brother to visit him before he traveled to the Grand Lodge in the Sky.

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Jun 9, 2010



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One of them (one I was very fond of) passed on just eight or nine hours after my visit.

Wow. That hits me right in the, eh, apron.

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Wow. That hits me right in the, eh, apron.

I wont go on about it too much, but needless to say I'm really upset. Maybe I'll blog it or something.

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Sep 28, 2006

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That's really cool of you to do that. We don't do nearly enough of that in our lodge, and it's greatly appreciated whenever we do. I'm going to make visitation of the sick one of my pet projects this year.

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Sep 7, 2003

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This might be abit of a personal question..

But at what age did you decide to join? And how did you found out about the Freemasons in the first place? How did your surrounding (friends, family) react to this?

I am curious about this because the Freemasons aren't really that well known where I come from (Holland), and I know nobody who is a brother. I feel abit hold back to visit a Lodge, as I feel I am abit too young (21) and thus might not be able to contribute much.

I was about 24 when I joined, if I'm counting correctly. I had a friend in college who joined, and I talked to him a bit about it before doing my own research and chewing it over for a couple years. Then one day I decided to go visit the lodge nearest my apartment at the time and I met a couple of members who talked to me for a bit, gave me a petition, and invited me back for coffee after the next meeting. My family was curious about it when I told them I was joining but they don't have any problem with it. I met my wife while I was going through the degrees, and she's always been supportive.

Any age is a good age to join. I wish I'd have joined sooner, because it's been such a great force in my life. I've been going through some real bad times for a few years now, and I trace it back to getting out of being active in masonry. Kind of lost the balance in my life. I'm trying to get active again, but it's not been easy.

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WTH? Catholics *are* Christian.

One day a man dies, who was a devout Christian. Saint Peter meets him at the Pearly Gates and tells him he has some free time, so he will give him a tour of Heaven. As the tour goes on, Saint Paul points out all the different religions. "There's the Muslims, that's the jewish section, Orthodox are over there there's the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Presbyterians, Budhists are over there with the Hindus", and so forth. As they come to this huge wall that stretches as high as and far as the eye can see. Saint Paul motions for the man to come closer and whispers. "Now, we need to be really quiet around here. On the other side of the wall we keep the Catholics, and they think they're the only ones in Heaven."

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That is really cool.

Unrelated, remember how I posted that I visited some old brothers on Christmas eve? One of them (one I was very fond of) passed on just eight or nine hours after my visit. I'd like to think that the GAOTU wanted a brother to visit him before he traveled to the Grand Lodge in the Sky.

This should be the only explanation anyone needs regarding why we join Freemasonry. Because there are people like Lovable Luciferian there that will be your brother. You have my sincere respect brother.

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Indeed, it is a great thing you did Lovable Luciferian.

And everyone, thanks for awnsering my question. I understand it is not much a matter of age, but if you feel "ready".

Keetron; I do not have bought rights to use the PM system. I do have a "spam-mail" adress you could email, if you have the time to email me the details? I am not sure it is already time for me to have a look, I think I still have some reading to do

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Indeed, it is a great thing you did Lovable Luciferian.

And everyone, thanks for awnsering my question. I understand it is not much a matter of age, but if you feel "ready".

Keetron; I do not have bought rights to use the PM system. I do have a "spam-mail" adress you could email, if you have the time to email me the details? I am not sure it is already time for me to have a look, I think I still have some reading to do Anyways, the email adres is

Send you a message, you can remove your adress now as crawlers don't care for the spoiler tags.

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Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

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I have followed the last thread with casual interest, and there is one thing about the Masons I am having a hard time grasping; how does the order "make good men better"? Like is there an example or two you can give?

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I have followed the last thread with casual interest, and there is one thing about the Masons I am having a hard time grasping; how does the order "make good men better"? Like is there an example or two you can give?

Sure. My lodge hosts blood drives, an annual fundraiser for a local after-school student center, and supports the Shriners Hospital for Children in Tampa, FL, as well as several Masonic charities like the Masonic Home in St. Augustine, a retirement home for Masons and their immediate families.

We're also taught via Masonic teachings to always revere the Supreme Being, be kind to others, give assistance to a brother when he needs it, even if he doesn't ask for it or you don't expect to receive it back, and give back to the community in whatever way is appropriate. We're also taught the important trait of keeping our mouths shut - our ritual and methods of recognizing one another are of course secret, but also we're not supposed to speak badly about another person (Mason or not) and if a brother comes to us in confidentiality, we have to keep that confidentiality to the level he'd want us to (obviously, criminal or harmful acts notwithstanding).

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I have followed the last thread with casual interest, and there is one thing about the Masons I am having a hard time grasping; how does the order "make good men better"? Like is there an example or two you can give?

All of the symbolism in the rituals and ceremonies is related to moral teachings. The three tenets of the fraternity are brotherly love, relief, and truth. Nearly everything you'll see revolves around those three things in some way, with some other things thrown in their like keeping a sound mind, organizing your time properly, etc.

Aside from that, we strive to be an organization where men to want to be better people hang out with other men who want to be better people. It's sort of a feedback loop, in a good way. We love each other, have a good time, help out other people, and help out each other.

You can't make a bad man good, but you can make a good man better.

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Florida Goon here.
Just how bad have the local lodges gotten about purging non-christians?

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Florida Goon here.
Just how bad have the local lodges gotten about purging non-christians?

SW Florida reporting in... I've been advised by the secretary of the lodge I visit regularly (not my home lodge, which I don't attend anymore) that "this will blow over" and they're completely ignoring the GM's memo. I would guess that my home lodge is probably all too happy to follow the memo though (them being a bunch of bigots very conservative and all).

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Know anything about the WPB-Miami part of the state? Wondering if I should wait a year or two to apply.

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Florida Goon here.
Just how bad have the local lodges gotten about purging non-christians?

I got into contact with my grand lodge and the Grand Secretary of California sent me this:

quote:

Hi Brother free porn u tube my name, thanks for sharing your thoughts with the Grand Master and me. This item will likely be a topic of discussion at the Conference of Grand Masters of Masons of North American in Kansas City in February. You can be assured that our leadership will actively listen and participate in these discussions as appropriate.

Best,

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So as you can see this is being taken seriously and I would not be shocked at all if this ended in February.

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Know anything about the WPB-Miami part of the state? Wondering if I should wait a year or two to apply.

I'm afraid I don't know anything specifically about lodges in that area.

If I may ask, what is your religious persuasion that you feel will keep you out? The recent memo is not specifically "Christian only"; it actually explicitly excludes a few groups (Pagans, Wiccans, Odinists, Agnostics, and Gnostics).

Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that if you believe in (1) the existence of one ever living and true god, and (2) the immortality of the soul and resurrection, then there's nothing to stop you from joining and no one should be asking you your religious persuasion.

I really think this whole thing is just a flash in the pan and will be gone in a matter of months. It's really against Masonic principles and just plain stupid. If you're a good man and desirous of being a Mason, don't let this stop you.

Loveable Luciferian posted:

So as you can see this is being taken seriously and I would not be shocked at all if this ended in February.
This. There are enough other states that will cry foul that the Florida Grand Line will strike this down fast and hard. I doubt the next Grand Master will do anything to support this. And I know for a fact that there are a number of Florida PGMs who are outraged already.

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If I may ask, what is your religious persuasion that you feel will keep you out? The recent memo is not specifically "Christian only"; it actually explicitly excludes a few groups (Pagans, Wiccans, Odinists, Agnostics, and Gnostics).


The problem is that "Pagans" is pretty ambigious, since Christianity considers all non-Christian religions to be "pagan". I'm pretty sure it's supposed to refer to Neo-Pagan polytheist religions exclusively, but it's not entirely clear.

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Oct 14, 2002



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how does the order "make good men better"? Like is there an example or two you can give?

Let's see.. Just some of the things I can think of in my particular case:

- Gives me the opportunity to be more charitable in both actions and giving of time and money, whether it be to another Brother or just to someone who I can help in some way
- Has made me a LOT more confident about standing up and talking in front of groups, even if it's lots of people I don't know. This is because I know that most of the people in the room have been in that same situation before, and not a one of them is going to make fun of me or ridicule me or do anything if I flub a word, a line, or goof up.
- I've met some incredibly awesome people. For example, one of my Brothers at Lodge is a Most Worshipful Past Grand Master of the state of Texas - but the only way you'd know this is by the jewel and apron he wears and the painting of him in our Lodge room. Otherwise, he's just Mike. I've never known him to use his Masonic history to attempt to seem "better" than anyone else.
- I've made some incredible friends. My Brethren at my home Lodge, and my Brethren here on the SA Forums, helped me get through an incredibly rough time in '09 when my wife passed away. It was amazing to attend a Thursday night study night about a week after her passing, and have our Secretary walk up with notes of condolences that he'd gotten via messages from phone calls and other Lodges all over the country due to the GoonMasons.
- Another bit about confidence - when my Brothers asked me to start helping teach the Work to some of the newer guys coming in "behind" me. There's nothing like knowing that your Brethren think highly enough of you that you are considered competent enough to help teach memory work to the next "generation" of Masons.
- You get the same amount of respect that you give. I've never run into someone pulling a "Well, I've been a Mason longer than you've been alive!" angle. I'm sure it happens, but I have never personally encountered it in the past four years.

My favorite thing about being a Mason - the incredible variety of people we have in our Lodge, with so many different life experiences or even what folks do for a living - and that (for the most part) everyone treats everybody else as complete equals. Former district court judges sitting next to guys that drive a garbage truck for a living - and none of that *matters* once you walk in the door.

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So as you can see this is being taken seriously and I would not be shocked at all if this ended in February.

I received the same thing after I sent a message to him, our AGL, and the GM. The unofficial "yeah, no way in hell will that last" was very reassuring as well. That's something I like about the CA Grand Lodge as well -- I've never felt ignored when talking with them.

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It's cool that I think sucha movement sprung out of this thread, and is up to multiple GM's in multiple states at this point. I look forward to hearing a positive resolution...as a non christian, i'd be a bit concerned.

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Effingham
Aug 1, 2006

The bells of the Gion Temple echo the impermanence of all things...


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One day a man dies, who was a devout Christian. Saint Peter meets him at the Pearly Gates and tells him he has some free time, so he will give him a tour of Heaven. As the tour goes on, Saint Paul points out all the different religions. "There's the Muslims, that's the jewish section, Orthodox are over there there's the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Presbyterians, Budhists are over there with the Hindus", and so forth. As they come to this huge wall that stretches as high as and far as the eye can see. Saint Paul motions for the man to come closer and whispers. "Now, we need to be really quiet around here. On the other side of the wall we keep the Catholics, and they think they're the only ones in Heaven."

I always heard that joke as about the Baptists. (Which, for the record, I was raised. I since "got better" and became Eastern Orthodox. )

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Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that if you believe in (1) the existence of one ever living and true god, and (2) the immortality of the soul and resurrection, then there's nothing to stop you from joining and no one should be asking you your religious persuasion.

Reminder that both of these qualifications are not universal and that many Masons including myself are not monotheists and many of us ray j kim porn emphatically deny the existence of the soul and the immortality of anything.

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Orillion
Jun 14, 2011



What i don't get about regular Masonry is why landmarks cannot be questioned. I mean, freemasonry is about promoting humanist values, isn't it? Isn't it about becoming a better Man (in the human sense), "better" in that case meaning enforcing values of liberty, equality and generosity? Please correct me if i'm wrong, i'm eager to understand.

Then why cannot landmarks such as belief in a higher being and being male be questioned? I know these are considered foundations of freemasonry, but they seem so unrelated to the values freemasonry is promoting. Each time this has been suggested in this thread or in the old one, a blunt refusal has been opposed, without any real explanation (other than "it's the way it is, deal with it", i mean), and i'm having a hard time understanding this. So, could anyone of you gentlegoons explain that to me please?

Thanks in advance.

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Reminder that both of these qualifications are not universal and that many Masons including myself are not monotheists and many of us free dirty sex jokes emphatically deny the existence of the soul and the immortality of anything.

I'm just stating that since he said he was looking to join in Florida, and the Florida version asks those questions. Personally, I say gently caress it, a Mason can believe what he wants so long as he believes in something; but since he was concerned about the memo and the situation in Florida, I went with what is considered canon here (and is in the Masonic Code).

EDIT: just to clarify, I'm not trying to argue with you on this point or be a dick, just wanted to be clear that I'm quoting canon in Florida specifically. I'm totally aware of what you're saying and I have no problem with polytheists, etc in Masonry.

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What i don't get about regular Masonry is why landmarks cannot be questioned. I mean, freemasonry is about promoting humanist values, isn't it? Isn't it about becoming a better Man (in the human sense), "better" in that case meaning enforcing values of liberty, equality and generosity? Please correct me if i'm wrong, i'm eager to understand.

Then why cannot landmarks such as belief in a higher being and being male be questioned? I know these are considered foundations of freemasonry, but they seem so unrelated to the values freemasonry is promoting. Each time this has been suggested in this thread or in the old one, a blunt refusal has been opposed, without any real explanation (other than "it's the way it is, deal with it", i mean), and i'm having a hard time understanding this. So, could anyone of you gentlegoons explain that to me please?

Thanks in advance.

This might not be everyone's answer, but here's where I stand on it. There are things inn Masonry which are derived from our rituals and obligations, and the rituals and obligations are what make us Masons; without them we wouldn't be Masons at all, and if we violate them we should be considered no longer Masons. If something is a part of those rituals/obligations, we are duty bound to obey it. If not, we violate that which makes us Masons in the first place. This category is limited to a few things, but among them are belief in a higher power and that only men can be Masons. Plenty of other things (for example, the now extinct Whites Only rule and the exclusion of a maimed man) are NOT part of what makes us Masons and can be (have been) changed.

Also, keep in mind, the only thing stopping someone from making innovations in Masonry is the withdrawal of Masonic recognition. There's no goon squad that goes around abducting clandestine masons in the dark, they simply are no longer part of the greater body of Masonry. This is the situation of the Grand Orient of France and Co-Masonry, for example. There is nothing wrong with these organizations in and of themselves, and nothing that makes them "bad", but because they were created out of the violation of Masonic principles, they are not recognized. It's the same situation if one tried to form a girl scout troop of 40 year old men... yes, you can uniforms in that size and go camping, but the other troops are not going to see you as part of the group.

Hope that made some sense, I do tend to ramble.

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What i don't get about regular Masonry is why landmarks cannot be questioned. I mean, freemasonry is about promoting humanist values, isn't it? Isn't it about becoming a better Man (in the human sense), "better" in that case meaning enforcing values of liberty, equality and generosity? Please correct me if i'm wrong, i'm eager to understand.

Then why cannot landmarks such as belief in a higher being and being male be questioned? I know these are considered foundations of freemasonry, but they seem so unrelated to the values freemasonry is promoting. Each time this has been suggested in this thread or in the old one, a blunt refusal has been opposed, without any real explanation (other than "it's the way it is, deal with it", i mean), and i'm having a hard time understanding this. So, could anyone of you gentlegoons explain that to me please?

Thanks in advance.

Here in Europe there are versions of Freemasonry which are female only, male only and mixed. Only the last group calls themself Freemason, but the other organisations are based on the same principles. If you prefer any of the others.. Why not join them? To each its own I guess.

I am not a Freemason myself, but I do have "experience" with boys- and girls-only clubs. Here in at the Dutch universities we have "disputen" which looks abit like the fraternities in the U.S. bit slightly different. These "disputen" also come as sex-specific and mixed. I am in a "boys-only" one, and a good friend of mine in a mixed one. When talking to him about our "dispuut" it seems to be that mine (guys only) is able to talk more openly to eachother and have way less (non actually) drama. Same is with girls-only clubs, they are more open to eachother and have less drama then the mixed clubs.

Men and women are 100% equal, but we are slightly different.. There is no point in denying that. I am pretty sure someone with more knowledge about this subject can explain that too me.

Once again, I am no Freemason nor am I awnsering for them.. I am only talking about what I know of sex-specific clubs.

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Jun 14, 2011



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Here in Europe there are versions of Freemasonry which are female only, male only and mixed. Only the last group calls themself Freemason, but the other organisations are based on the same principles. If you prefer any of the others.. Why not join them? To each its own I guess.

Well i'm asking because i have a bunch of friends in these irregular versions of Freemasonry (GODF mainly), and from what i can see, they truly share the values and principles of regular Masonry, hence the hard time i'm having to tell the difference. I'll admit i'm feeling more attracted to this irregular form of Freemasonry, but which order i'm inclined towards isn't really the point of my question. What i can't seem to understand is why regulars and irregulars are so incompatible, what i cannot grasp is why belief in a higher being and being a male-only society are relevant in the context of the Western world of early 21st century.

But if i understand correctly, it all comes down to rituals? Does the difference in landmarks change the meaning of the rituals so much that it makes a huge difference between regular and irregular Masonry? (i know nothing about masonic rituals)

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I don't know what the Grand and Glorious Order of Knights of the Creeping Serpent is, but the Grand Master of California sure is pissed off at them:

John F. Lowe, Grand Master posted:

RE: Revocation of Any and All Recognition of, or Permission for Membership in, the Grand and Glorious Order of Knights of the Creeping Serpent (aka "Snakes") by California Masons.

[Some background info that basically says this group required one to be a Mason to join, but conferred degrees so that was not allowed. A referendum was voted on by CA Masons and 90.5% voted not to allow the group in. Instead, they formed a social club, which was allowed, so long as they didn't confer degrees.]

Over the past several months, I have received corroborated evidence that the same group, operating since 2009 as a social club, has in fact conferred a ritual ceremony upon candidates, which under their bylaws is prohibited. On or about September 8, 2012, an initiatory ritual was performed on some sixty candidates at a private residence, known to be the residence of the current president of the Social Club. This ritual activity included required actions and activity by the candidates that is not permissible under our California Masonic Code and Ritual.

The candidates were required to partially or fully disrobe, crawl upon the ground, and perform several physical actions that are, at a minimum, degrading. These actions required of the candidates, as well as the behavior of those members in attendance, can only be described as hazing; again, not permissible under California Masonic Code or Ritual. Holding this ceremony at a private residence instead of a Lodge hall further indicates that those in charge preferred keeping the ceremony clandestine.

[...]

Those who acted in charge of this occasion are now liable for charges of unmasonic conduct, having broken from a social club to a degree-conferring club or order without permission of the Grand Lodge. Those who were candidates at this event are also subject to charges; for as in civil jurisprudence, ignorance is no excuse for breaking laws. We all should ever be wary of any degree being held in a clandestine manner, particularly at a residence.

In consequence of the above, effective January 1, 2013, the Grand and Glorious Order of Knights of the Creeping Serpent (also known as Snakes, or Tribu) as a social club of any definition, or as an order or rite, whose prerequisite for membership is that of Master Mason, is no longer recognized or authorized by the Grand Lodge of California.

Any California Mason that is also a member of the GGOKCS, the GGOKCS Social Club of Southern California, or any other club, rite, organization or successor thereof associated with the GGOKCS must immediately terminate his membership in these organizations. This edict applies to all California Masons, whether residing in our jurisdiction or any foreign jurisdiction, as well as any Mason residing in California whose membership lies with another jurisdiction.

Any California Mason or Mason residing in California holding membership after January 1, 2013 is subject to charges of unmasonic conduct.

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What i can't seem to understand is why regulars and irregulars are so incompatible

There's plenty of organizations that promote good values and morals, and many of them use traditions, rituals, and allegory, but they're not Freemasonry. Freemasonry requires all applicants to be male and believe in a Higher Power. If you don't want to join such an organization, no one is forcing you to. One of the first bits of the initiation ritual is that you're joining on your own initiative. If you don't like what you see here, then we wish you the best of luck in whatever you choose to do.

Edit: If you want a more practical answer, it's to deal with the problems of:

1) How does one establish a world-wide network of brotherhood without a central governing authority?
2) How does one enforce a standard of uniformity and tradition without a central governing authority?
3) How does one protect Freemasonry against those who would use its name for unscrupulous profit?

Basically each F&AM / AF&AM Grand Lodge has voluntary contractual agreements with every other F&AM / AF&AM Grand Lodge, allowing their members to visit each others lodges, participate in ceremonies, etc. This is called "regularity", and part of the requirements to establish regularity between lodges is that they all abide by the same basic rules. Every lodge literally has a list of all the lodges that it is in regularity with. Any Grand Lodge that breaks these Masonic rules by affiliating with an "irregular" lodge, is declared irregular itself and automatically shunned from the World-Wide Masonic community.

There have, and still are, many organizations claiming to be masonry that are basically for-profit scams designed to make a lot of money for their organizers via membership dues. And these laws of regularity basically keep Freemasonry from being infiltrated by outsiders.

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Jun 14, 2011



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It's to deal with the problems of:

1) How does one establish a world-wide network of brotherhood without a central governing authority?
2) How does one enforce a standard of uniformity and tradition without a central governing authority?
3) How does one protect Freemasonry against those who would use its name for unscrupulous profit?

[...]

There have, and still are, many organizations claiming to be masonry that are basically for-profit scams designed to make a lot of money for their organizers via membership dues. And these laws of regularity basically keep Freemasonry from being infiltrated by outsiders.

Ok, i think i got it. What i didn't understand was the "you don't have to join if you don't want to" part, but the above practical answer is making things much clearer. Thanks a lot!

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FreshFeesh
Jun 3, 2007

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I don't know what the Grand and Glorious Order of Knights of the Creeping Serpent is, but the Grand Master of California sure is pissed off at them:

It was basically an illegal (per California Masonic Code) appendant body that tried to skirt around the CMC and still confer their private degrees. Time and time again they were reprimanded and told to quit it, basically. When they finally petitioned to become a recognized body, it was shot down soundly (the 90%+ defeat). Most of us who had voted on those ballots thought the matter settled.

Now the group has come forth again to our current GM and said "no, no, we're just a social club, no degrees or anything that violate the CMC" so the GM said that they could meet as such, as there is no CMC stipulation preventing such. Aaaaaand then it turns out that no, actually, they are the same ol' club hazing and beating candidates.

Something tells me these guys are going to get a bit sterner of a reprimand this time around.

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SimonChris
Apr 24, 2008

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More snake information from five years ago. This has been going on for a while, apparently.

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Aureus
Nov 20, 2006



Yeah the whole snake thing was a talking point at my lodge a few years ago, am surprised to see it again honestly, I had thought it had already been shot down. I mainly remember the "I joined to see what the conspiracy was but stuck around for the fellowship" guy being all "Are they the original sins sex scene real Masons?"

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Lovable Luciferian
Jul 10, 2007

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I don't know what the Grand and Glorious Order of Knights of the Creeping Serpent is, but the Grand Master of California sure is pissed off at them:


Edit: Exactly what Bro. FreshFeesh said:

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It was basically an illegal (per California Masonic Code) appendant body that tried to skirt around the CMC and still confer their private degrees. Time and time again they were reprimanded and told to quit it, basically. When they finally petitioned to become a recognized body, it was shot down soundly (the 90%+ defeat). Most of us who had voted on those ballots thought the matter settled.

Now the group has come forth again to our current GM and said "no, no, we're just a social club, no degrees or anything that violate the CMC" so the GM said that they could meet as such, as there is no CMC stipulation preventing such. Aaaaaand then it turns out that no, actually, they are the same ol' club hazing and beating candidates.

Something tells me these guys are going to get a bit sterner of a reprimand this time around.

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Apr 14, 2007

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So who all is interested in mead? Email me Kilo147 at live dot com.

I'll be making at least three gallons. Maybe five. One plain with clover honey, another with mulling spices and, one with orange, and if I do extra, one made with raspberry, and one blackberry. I'll do the plain first and make a new batch every month until I get bored or run out of space or supplies. Or money.

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So was Santa good to everyone in this thread?

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Apr 26, 2007


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So was Santa good to everyone in this thread?



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