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Kilo147
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I am not a Christian, I don't accept Jesus as my lord and savior, and I am most certainly a religious person in my own religion. I also happen to look extremely Jewish. The GM of Florida hasn't thrown me out for not being Christian, nor did he throw out the more than half of my lodge who showed up tonight for not being Christian.

I'm saying that his ruling has brought out a lot of people that feel that freemasonry should only allow certain religions, and due to the fact that it is a GMs ruling, it sets precedence. There are a lot of masons that think that Freemasonry should be Christian only, or not allowed any monotheistic religions or non-Abrahanic religions. Nowhere near a majority, but all it takes is one in the right position. That is why this is so dangerous. I mean hell, I'm a deist, I don't call God by any name, thought I think GAOTU is fitting . I don't believe in miracles, and I don't believe in prayer. If Odinism and Gnosticism aren't safe, I sure as hell am next on the chopping block.

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I've chosen not to bring it up to him, as he does definitely know me (greeted me by name tonight, I didn't even know he was showing up).
I really have a strong gut feeling that this is not the Masonic thing to do. A soft whisper of correction in the ear from a Brother he has a good impression of and personal connection to seems much more powerful to me than the political grandstanding of the GM Conference.

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To avoid the risk of causing trouble for myself
This really sort of makes me cringe about the state of Masonry today: that Masons hold their tongue and hands against impropriety of many sorts due to fears of reprisal. What Brotherhood, that?

I hope you will reconsider saying something to him. In private, with brotherly love. There is and will be enough public reprisal and it will be overturned, but all of that is antagonistic. While that will lead to this policy being overturned, it will not penetrate his heart in the way a gentle reproach from a friend and Brother in private may.

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Sep 8, 2011

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A GM is just a man, goddamn the consequences , you and I both know that once the harmony of the institution, our strength is compromised, all of Masonry is at risk. What one state does forces others into a discussion that would otherwise never, and should never, happen

Young Padawan, your passion is appreciated and admired. I must however point out to you, the following:

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A GM is just a man, but never forget that the GM is who we trust to make the right choices for us. And in our own jurisdictions the GM is voted by us, elected by us to lead us. The Masons of florida, duly voted, elected and installed that GM, and as such we must respect him, regardless of how much of an asshat he is. The GM in my own jurisdiction has made some of the same rulings, and I have saluted him stoically in open lodge, regardless of his narrow mindedness for he is the GM. And I have communicated my displeasure in open forum, and by correspondence to him directly, but in public I will respect his office for that is what I signed up for. We salute, and we respect the office.

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dougie
Dec 28, 2012



Glad to find this thread, fraternal greetings to you all. I am currently RWM of a small lodge in Scotland and have always had an interest in the ways in which people approach freemasonry around the world.
Our applications do not ask specifically that you believe in 'god' only that you believe in a 'supreme being', there is no mention of christ as far as I am aware.
I did read a conspiracy theory article online about some guy who was admitted to the 33degree and decided to denounce his masonic brethren when they referred to Jesus as 'an apostle of Mankind' thus removing any divine identity from him and suggesting that he was mortal. I have never seen this concept corroborated anywhere else, perhaps have to wait until I pass that degree myself

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SafetyTrain
Nov 26, 2012

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What kind of income disparity is there usually in your run-of-the-mill Lodge?

Are there any highly represented professions?

I'd like too know this because I feel the general view of Masons are that they are high-income folks hanging with other high-income folks. I feel this might not be true, or at least false too a certain degree. My own view, not very researched, view on Masons is that they're people seeking similar people. To me this makes for a possibly homogenous group.

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Glad to find this thread, fraternal greetings to you all. I am currently RWM of a small lodge in Scotland and have always had an interest in the ways in which people approach freemasonry around the world.
Our applications do not ask specifically that you believe in 'god' only that you believe in a 'supreme being', there is no mention of christ as far as I am aware.
I did read a conspiracy theory article online about some guy who was admitted to the 33degree and decided to denounce his masonic brethren when they referred to Jesus as 'an apostle of Mankind' thus removing any divine identity from him and suggesting that he was mortal. I have never seen this concept corroborated anywhere else, perhaps have to wait until I pass that degree myself

Good to see another brother from bonny Caledonia. I'm a Scots mason too - which lodge are you RWM of?

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What kind of income disparity is there usually in your run-of-the-mill Lodge?

It varies - an example being that one guy I know was a traffic warden - another was a teacher.

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Jan 21, 2008
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What kind of income disparity is there usually in your run-of-the-mill Lodge?

Are there any highly represented professions?

I'd like too know this because I feel the general view of Masons are that they are high-income folks hanging with other high-income folks. I feel this might not be true, or at least false too a certain degree. My own view, not very researched, view on Masons is that they're people seeking similar people. To me this makes for a possibly homogenous group.

We've got a Police officer, Few IT guys, Retirees (including a 40+ year Ford guy), Mechanics, School Teachers, Electrician, Disabled Vet, etc. So my lodge is quite varied. (And that's just the regulars)

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Sep 29, 2003

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Gotta back Ari's play here. There is no sense in such a loaded topic to trying to do anything with this in Lodge or at Lodge functions, and the GM, while just a man, is not just a scrub. GMs don't get there by being stupid or bad Masons. He may be wrong about this issue, but he has his Masonic reasons.

Also, 7thBattalion, by bringing up loaded topics at his Lodge's installation, Ari would be the one introducing disharmony. This single solitary act does not introduce disharmony in Masonry, and neither does voicing an opinion, but chances are good the GM of Florida has heard about this as stands, and chances are not so good that Ari would melt his heart and it would grow five times that day. There is also a time and place for this kind of thing. If Ari wanted to seek him out in private, to have a meeting, that would be one thing, but grabbing a guy at an Installation is not appropriate. Ari knows this guy, and this guy knows Ari, but I don't think they have a context outside Masonry so it's not like Ari "has his ear" or something.

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Agreed brother. I think Ari did what was best for the Craft at the time.

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lord1234
Oct 1, 2008


My lodge is blessed to count among our brethren, the GM of Massachusetts. Last night at dinner I grabbed a seat next to him and brought up the topic of GL o F and their recent statements. As soon as I mentioned Florida, he knew what I was talking about, said he had recieved multiple emails regarding the issue already, and that they were definitely going to be discussion it at the upcoming GM meeting.

Also, I the GM was congratulated on 46 years as a Mason yesterday.

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lord1234
Oct 1, 2008


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What kind of income disparity is there usually in your run-of-the-mill Lodge?

Are there any highly represented professions?

I'd like too know this because I feel the general view of Masons are that they are high-income folks hanging with other high-income folks. I feel this might not be true, or at least false too a certain degree. My own view, not very researched, view on Masons is that they're people seeking similar people. To me this makes for a possibly homogenous group.

I too will go with it varies. I think we have some pretty high pwoered folks in my lodge, but also a couple of people who work the parks service...

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mrbill
Oct 14, 2002



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What kind of income disparity is there usually in your run-of-the-mill Lodge?
Are there any highly represented professions?
I'd like too know this because I feel the general view of Masons are that they are high-income folks hanging with other high-income folks. I feel this might not be true, or at least false too a certain degree. My own view, not very researched, view on Masons is that they're people seeking similar people. To me this makes for a possibly homogenous group.

It depends on the Lodge. There's a certain Lodge here in Houston that is regarded as "rich guys, lawyers, and oil money" - and that's one of the reasons why I didn't bother with that certain one.
My Lodge has guys that have done everything from drive garbage trucks to being retired district court judges. Our current WM sells real estate. We seem to have a larger than normal number of current and former law enforcement types.

One of the things I enjoy most about Masonry is that once you walk in that Lodge door - what you do outside of Lodge doesn't (or shouldn't) matter. We meet on the level.

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"There is a story told about President Theodore Roosevelt going to a Masonic meeting while president and the lodge Master, in complete charge of the proceedings, was Roosevelt's gardener."

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What kind of income disparity is there usually in your run-of-the-mill Lodge?

Are there any highly represented professions?

I'd like too know this because I feel the general view of Masons are that they are high-income folks hanging with other high-income folks. I feel this might not be true, or at least false too a certain degree. My own view, not very researched, view on Masons is that they're people seeking similar people. To me this makes for a possibly homogenous group.

My own personal experience has been that lodge membership is fairly diverse in an economic sense, both in terms of professions represented and income levels. Both lodges I belong to count retirees, teachers, lawyers, welders, insurance salesman, small business owners, mechanics, carpenters, students, bureaucrats (my fault) and clerks as members. That is only counting the folks I've met and gotten to know a bit.

As far as homogeneity, I find that masons are looking for like minded folks insofar as the membership requirements are concerned, but not so much beyond that. Perhaps the most personally enriching aspects of masonry for me has been the opportunity to meet and befriend brothers whose life experiences and opinions fundamentally differ from my own. Because of the leveling aspect of the lodge and the fraternal tie, I've become friends with those who I might have remained perpetually distant from and at odds with in the ordinary course of life.

Now, I've lived my entire adult life in the american mountain west and in smaller cities and towns, so others will have to speak to their own experiences in different regions. I know from conversations with others that some lodges have very high dues and that this restricts their membership. I've also heard of, but not visited, lodges where membership was predominately of a single profession - railroad employees, active military, law enforcement and professors are the examples that come to mind.

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Apr 26, 2007


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And I have communicated my displeasure in open forum, and by correspondence to him directly, but in public marques houston naked download I will respect his office for that is what I signed up for. We salute, and we respect the office.

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with this. An office can be tainted by individuals committing unMasonic acts under the guise of authority, and at that point we have a choice to speak up or watch the office be tarnished for much longer than that master's terms. We have no obligation to the office free sex farm animals whatsoever, we have every obligation best sex position guide to the brother who is holding the office and black cock fucking pussy the brethren who are subjected to that brother's edicts.

I have put my money where my mouth is in this regard before as others in this thread can tell you, and I've been banned from lodge for challenging the WM's authority (after I accused him and several other members of canvassing for votes in the post-vote "are there any objections?" stage). I'm loving tired of shitheel Masons being given infinite leeway specifically because nobody wants to pay attention to the whole "Making Good Men Better" part if it runs up against traditional authority. That is the biggest failing of Masonry today, and I've been seriously considering giving up my membership if my state Grand Lodge doesn't push hard to have that idiotic edict overturned.

We owe nothing to the East and everything to the men who sit there, and in this case we owe him a swift and strong rebuke, for his own good.

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I never said Ari should confront the GM. I probably would, but privately, and over scotch if possible. Just saying.

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Temper your passions.

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Temper your passions.

Temperance is a virtue, and something I as an EAM must remember. Which is why I keep my discontent about Florida's GM on this here forum.

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Effingham
Aug 1, 2006

The bells of the Gion Temple echo the impermanence of all things...


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What kind of income disparity is there usually in your run-of-the-mill Lodge?

Are there any highly represented professions?

In my Lodge, we have my family doctor, my family barber (a past-master), a few teachers, a guy who works for the gas company, a guy who works for a phone company, a bunch of retired guys (a couple of cops, a few ex-teachers, etc.), a couple of between-jobs guys, etc. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Basically, the gamut.

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Oct 4, 2008



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Why was Gnosticism singled out anyway? Checking with wikipedia they seem to believe that there is a supreme being, but that a bunch of people have been tricked into worshiping God's handyman. Okay, that's a little insulting if you are a member of the handyman-worshiping religions, but as long as the guy isn't rubbing your noses in it all the time it should be no big deal. Most religions teach that other religions are in error.

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dougie
Dec 28, 2012



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Good to see another brother from bonny Caledonia. I'm a Scots mason too - which lodge are you RWM of?


It varies - an example being that one guy I know was a traffic warden - another was a teacher.

St. Mary's, Tobermory, 1310

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Why was Gnosticism singled out anyway? Checking with wikipedia they seem to believe that there is a supreme being, but that a bunch of people have been tricked into worshiping God's handyman. Okay, that's a little insulting if you are a member of the handyman-worshiping religions, but as long as the guy isn't rubbing your noses in it all the time it should be no big deal. Most religions teach that other religions are in error.

For me Gnosticism is key to masonic ideals, spirituality through knowledge, to look within yourself rather than toward any divine persons (ie popes, priests, gods, whatever) which explains why as ideological opposites, the catholic church in particular have had reason to fall out with freemasonry.

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What kind of income disparity is there usually in your run-of-the-mill Lodge?

Are there any highly represented professions?

I'd like too know this because I feel the general view of Masons are that they are high-income folks hanging with other high-income folks. I feel this might not be true, or at least false too a certain degree. My own view, not very researched, view on Masons is that they're people seeking similar people. To me this makes for a possibly homogenous group.

My lodge has a few doctors, bankers, lawyers, plumbers, mechanics, electricians, PhD candidates, cable guys, store clerks, IT guys, retired/reserve military... The income range is say 20k to 1 million plus.

Lodges represent the community they are in and the income will vary based on that. In larger cities that support multiple lodges you'll find some lodges that are profession specific like say a largely police lodge, or might have income stratification. Your typical lodge though is the only lodge in the city and ends up representing the demographics of the city.

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St. Mary's, Tobermory, 1310

Brilliant, are you enjoying your term as RWM?

I'm SD (WJW elect) Lodge 19 Coupar O'Fife, Province of Fife and Kinross. You and any other travelling Brethren are more than welcome to swing our way if you happen to be in the area.

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Temper your passions.

Anger can be tempered, as can disgust.

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Went to my first official stated meeting this week. Felt great, and I've volunteered myself as Senior Steward in an upcoming 1st degree! I've also volunteered to help build out some LED lighting for the lodge

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Brilliant, are you enjoying your term as RWM?

I'm SD (WJW elect) Lodge 19 Coupar O'Fife, Province of Fife and Kinross. You and any other travelling Brethren are more than welcome to swing our way if you happen to be in the area.

It's great, a little daunting but definitely worth it. I am sure there is someone from Coupar came through here for a meeting, there was a group from several lodges including Perth and Doune, possibly with those. They came at easter every year led by a Rab MacLean, they did my Fellowcraft and Mark degrees.

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SafetyTrain
Nov 26, 2012

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Thank you all for answering my question. Very interesting that it is even more diverse than I'd imagined it to be. I had another question too:

Where do you think the Masons are most active in the world?
And do you have any theories as to why that is?

To me it feels like it's in the US. But then again I know there are lodges in most European countries, and apparently in Africa if I didn't misread the thread earlier. But the Masons lodge here in Sweden where I live is very discreet and I think it's pretty small. I don't know if most Swedes are even aware that the Masons still operate these days.

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WAFFLEHOUND
Apr 26, 2007


There isn't a huge income disparity in Swedish lodges in comparison to American ones. Swedish Rite tends to be more elitist (there used to be a formal system in place where you could have pseudo-Masons who were sworn to secrecy but not actually Masons for the purposes of having servants in the lodge). At the same time, while they are more elite and secretive in Sweden they are also massively wealthy, they own a huge old palace not too far from Gamla Stan (just one block towards the water from T-Centralen if I remember correctly).

They're genuinely awesome guys though.

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Where do you think the Masons are most active in the world?
And do you have any theories as to why that is?

India would be my guess. They have a long history of freemasonry, and they have a rather large population of university educated men.

According to wikipedia: Freemasonry now exists in various forms all over the world, with a membership estimated at around six million, including approximately 150,000 under the jurisdictions of the Grand Lodge of Scotland and Grand Lodge of Ireland, over a quarter of a million under the jurisdiction of the United Grand Lodge of England,[1] and just under two million in the United States.

As you can see, no mention is made of India, which has a large number of lodges, with a very active membership. By wikipedia's numbers, USA wins.

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By wikipedia's numbers, USA wins.

Sort of, yes, except there is no Grand Lodge of the United States and instead each individual State has its own GL, so it's not exactly fair to group the US together, as that would be roughly akin to grouping "Europe" or "the Commonwealths" together, which would probably give the latter a fighting chance.

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Sort of, yes, except there is no Grand Lodge of the United States and instead each individual State has its own GL, so it's not exactly fair to group the US together, as that would be roughly akin to grouping "Europe" or "the Commonwealths" together, which would probably give the latter a fighting chance.

I don't think that matters as much as comparing the numbers by nation to the total population.

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Jun 18, 2002

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Long as we're talking about it - why isn't there a Grand Lodge of the United States? I remember reading something in a history book that they wanted to create one, but some events happened and the dice fell that now we have a Grand Lodge for each state (plus DC and I think one for each territory).

It would make things quite a lot easier with regard to internal politics, if a bit harder to manage.

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Long as we're talking about it - why isn't there a Grand Lodge of the United States? I remember reading something in a history book that they wanted to create one, but some events happened and the dice fell that now we have a Grand Lodge for each state (plus DC and I think one for each territory).

It would make things quite a lot easier with regard to internal politics, if a bit harder to manage.

Australia has 5 GLs, and we only have 7 states/territories. Here we can excuse it because of geography. Some lodges can be in the same masonic region and be 500 miles apart, so visiting for DGIWs and councillors becomes a nightmare.

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Sep 28, 2006

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I, for one, am extremely grateful that we don't have a U.S. grand lodge. The state G.L.s have enough trouble herding kittens as it is, and having a higher authority would only hinder them.

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Long as we're talking about it - why isn't there a Grand Lodge of the United States? I remember reading something in a history book that they wanted to create one, but some events happened and the dice fell that now we have a Grand Lodge for each state (plus DC and I think one for each territory).

It would make things quite a lot easier with regard to internal politics, if a bit harder to manage.

You have to think about the history of the United States in general.

Originally, we were 13 colonies, each with their own governments, answerable only to the Crown. After 1776, we were 13 separate States, each with their own governments, allied with the either States (united, one might say!).

It wasn't really until 1789, and even more so until after the Civil War, that States started to be seen as "answerable" to a unified, Federal government.

In the same way, there would have been no way a Grand Lodge of United States would have worked.

Also, think about the different kinds of lodges we have. F&AM, AF&AM, &c. That started long before Independence.

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I have a mason friend passing along an application. Looking forward to the process. ( goon here)

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I'm going to be in Pennsylvania later this month. Any PA Mason Goons here?

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Hey, bettering yourself is not only about your mental work but also about being strong and healthy not to burden your brethren with your physical disabilities when it is so easily evaded.

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COOL CORN
Jun 1, 2003




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I've been speaking with the secretaries of both the York Rite and Scottish Rite about joining up. The next YR festival is in March and the next SR reunion is in April, so I've got plenty of time to consider and think about it.

I'm dead set on the SR, as it's something I've been wanting to do for a long time. But, in the interest of furthering my Masonic education, I'm also looking at the YR. Would there be much to gain from a non-Christian joining? I know the Commandery is focused on the Jesus story, and have a requirement of being a Christian to join, but is it worth going through just the Chapter and Council?

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I don't think York Rite requires you to be a Christian, but they do ask you to swear to defend Christianity.

Take that to mean whatever you'd like, I guess.

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