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Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

This post is good to go


Not much of a boost (at least with that Acer) in graphics from Ivy to Haswell in ultrabooks.

quote:

On the GPU side you should expect to see around a 15% increase in performance compared to last generation’s HD 4000 GPU. Neither improvement is significant enough to dramatically change the performance class of Ultrabooks, but the situation at least improves.

Every bit helps but I guess I was expecting closer to 40-50% faster.

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sports
Sep 1, 2012


If you've won, and have enough money for it, get an Apple.

If you are unable to, please delve into the largely iffy world that is purchasing a Lenovo.

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Sep 5, 2003

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Not much of a boost (at least with that Acer) in graphics from Ivy to Haswell in ultrabooks.


Every bit helps but I guess I was expecting closer to 40-50% faster.

There are two models of the GPU - one with 20 shader cores (HD 4200/4400/4600, depending on clocks), and one with 40 (HD 5000/5100). That's the former - HD 5000 should be significantly faster. We're still waiting to see some benchmarks, though.

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Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

This post is good to go


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There are two models of the GPU - one with 20 shader cores (HD 4200/4400/4600, depending on clocks), and one with 40 (HD 5000/5100). That's the former - HD 5000 should be significantly faster. We're still waiting to see some benchmarks, though.

Right - I was just expecting more of a HD3000-HD4000 jump. I know that the HD4400 isn't the highest one, which will provide closer to that. It'd have been nice if the 20 core was 50% faster and then 40 core was 100% faster.

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Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004



apple posted:

11-inch is jumping from an average of five hours to nine hours of juice, while the 13-inch is being bumped up from seven hours to 12 hours.

Not bad, Apple! $1100 for a 12 hr battery, 13" macbook air with 128gb SSD

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Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

This post is good to go


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There are two models of the GPU - one with 20 shader cores (HD 4200/4400/4600, depending on clocks), and one with 40 (HD 5000/5100). That's the former - HD 5000 should be significantly faster. We're still waiting to see some benchmarks, though.

Apple went with the HD5000. Nice!

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shrughes
Oct 11, 2008

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The cheap crap approach of having an extremely stiff hinge is even worse both in terms of usability and durability.

An extremely stiff hinge? No. You don't have a stiff hinge, you have a hinge that snaps closed (via a spring or some other kind of spring-like mechanism, I don't know) when it's nearly closed. This is what the business-rugged Toughbooks do.

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An extremely stiff hinge? No. You don't have a stiff hinge, you have a hinge that snaps closed (via a spring or some other kind of spring-like mechanism, I don't know) when it's nearly closed. This is what the business-rugged Toughbooks do.

Panasonic Toughbooks are way too overpriced and honestly not very smart buys when Apple product surpasses their quality while being 60% of their cost. Please stop mentioning Panasonic Toughbook product lines when mentioning competitors to Apple, these laptops are rarely found in the US and aren't exactly machines of ownership.

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micron
Nov 15, 2005



So I'll ge getting a HP workstation it seems. The standard video card is a FirePro m4000. For an extra $100 I can upgrade to a quadro 1000 or $200 for a quadro 2000. It seems some benchmarks rank the ati card higher and compare it to a m7750. Worth the extra dollars even though I can find no decent information on workstation cards?

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Panasonic Toughbooks are way too overpriced and honestly not very smart buys when Apple product surpasses their quality while being 60% of their cost. Please stop mentioning Panasonic Toughbook product lines when mentioning competitors to Apple, these laptops are rarely found in the US and aren't exactly machines of ownership.

Apple products aren't rugged at all - not even compared to a Thinkpads/Elitebook let alone a Toughbook. As for quality it depends on how you define it - by some definitions Apple gear is great by others its terrible.

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shrughes
Oct 11, 2008

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Panasonic Toughbooks are way too overpriced and honestly not very smart buys when Apple product surpasses their quality while being 60% of their cost. Please stop mentioning Panasonic Toughbook product lines when mentioning competitors to Apple, these laptops are rarely found in the US and aren't exactly machines of ownership.

And here I thought I was giving examples when talking about latches and build quality. Please stop mentioning your opinions.

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sigma 6
Nov 27, 2004

the mirror would do well to reflect further

Still making my way through this entire thread but I have a few questions to ask:

I am in the market for a new laptop which basically functions as a 3d workstation. Is it worth buying a Haswell gaming laptop or would I be better off looking at the older I7s which should be cheaper now that the Haswell is out?

Haswell's improved battery life is nice but I don't care about the improvement in integrated graphics performance.

Now that Haswell is out, have there been any significant price drops in older gaming laptops? Does anyone know of any great deals?

I like Asus, Fujitsu and MSI but am willing to consider IBM if the specs are right. Thinkpads aren't traditionally made for artists though.

Not in the market for an Apple, Dell, HP, or Sony.

What I really want is CPU power and GPU power. I can always upgrade the ram if I need to. Thinking around 1200 budget but I can go a little higher if I need to. Don't care about screen size very much and I can swap out the HD if that becomes an issue.

Sager notebooks are great but I was hoping to find something as good at Fry's and be able to walk out the door with it. Don't have much time to wait on shipping.

I guess "durable and powerful" would be my two picks from the OP. Totally given up on buying a tablet which will support Zbrush well enough. Currently I am typing this on a MSI GT627, and although it has served me well, I need to sell it to invest in a (Haswell?) replacement.


Any other 3d artists out there upgrading to a new laptop? Is there enough evidence that tablets are strong enough to run 3d apps / zbrush? Most everything I have read leads me to believe it isn't worth going to a tablet just yet.

Any thoughts on the Toshiba Qosimo?

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Switched.on
Apr 25, 2008


Is it just me, or are these new Alienware machines they announced today pretty sweet? I'm in the market for a gaming laptop soon as a temporary desktop replacement (about a year before I rebuild), and the timing couldn't be better. I was leaning towards an MSI, but those and the Sagers are just so ugly. Does anyone here see any glaring faults at first glance? (I'd link but I'm on mobile, sorry)

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sigma 6
Nov 27, 2004

the mirror would do well to reflect further

Alienware's are just too drat expensive for me. Also, they are really ugly IMO.

Surprised you think the Sager's are ugly. I heard they are just modified Asus laptops, but I could be wrong.

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Not sure how it compares to the MSI, Asus, or Sager though. Any thoughts?

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Sep 1, 2012


You'd probably want to wait for WWDC to finish. Valve's promising more Steam OSX support for big titles.

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InstantInfidel
Jan 8, 2010

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Still making my way through this entire thread but I have a few questions to ask:

I am in the market for a new laptop which basically functions as a 3d workstation. Is it worth buying a Haswell gaming laptop or would I be better off looking at the older I7s which should be cheaper now that the Haswell is out?

Haswell's improved battery life is nice but I don't care about the improvement in integrated graphics performance.

Now that Haswell is out, have there been any significant price drops in older gaming laptops? Does anyone know of any great deals?

I like Asus, Fujitsu and MSI but am willing to consider IBM if the specs are right. Thinkpads aren't traditionally made for artists though.

Not in the market for an Apple, Dell, HP, or Sony.

What I really want is CPU power and GPU power. I can always upgrade the ram if I need to. Thinking around 1200 budget but I can go a little higher if I need to. Don't care about screen size very much and I can swap out the HD if that becomes an issue.

Sager notebooks are great but I was hoping to find something as good at Fry's and be able to walk out the door with it. Don't have much time to wait on shipping.

I guess "durable and powerful" would be my two picks from the OP. Totally given up on buying a tablet which will support Zbrush well enough. Currently I am typing this on a MSI GT627, and although it has served me well, I need to sell it to invest in a (Haswell?) replacement.


Any other 3d artists out there upgrading to a new laptop? Is there enough evidence that tablets are strong enough to run 3d apps / zbrush? Most everything I have read leads me to believe it isn't worth going to a tablet just yet.

Any thoughts on the Toshiba Qosimo?


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Alienware's are just too drat expensive for me. Also, they are really ugly IMO.

Surprised you think the Sager's are ugly. I heard they are just modified Asus laptops, but I could be wrong.

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Not sure how it compares to the MSI, Asus, or Sager though. Any thoughts?

All of the gaming laptops produced by companies you've listed suck for various reasons and suck even more for professional work. You want a Thinkpad W530 (or W540 when it's out) and should not be considering anything else outside of a MBP, which you've ruled out. You want the best Quadro you can put in it and the cheapest i7 you can get. Make sure you get the 1080p screen ugprade as well.

The best choice would be a desktop, however, and I strongly recommend you go that route.

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Is it just me, or are these new Alienware machines they announced today pretty sweet? I'm in the market for a gaming laptop soon as a temporary desktop replacement (about a year before I rebuild), and the timing couldn't be better. I was leaning towards an MSI, but those and the Sagers are just so ugly. Does anyone here see any glaring faults at first glance? (I'd link but I'm on mobile, sorry)

You have a large, glowing, Alien-shaped contraceptive on your laptop.

edit: also don't buy a gaming laptop at all. Build a desktop.

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sports
Sep 1, 2012


Gaming is a lot like gun ownership. It's best to keep the practice out of public eye- and it's really awkward when you do include it into your daily routine.
I'd like everyone to consider the new Apple lineup, though. Mavericks is a stupid name for an OS but Microsoft has another 2 years to go for a really mediocre answer.

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sigma 6
Nov 27, 2004

the mirror would do well to reflect further

InstantInfidel: I have a 3d workstation. This is for 3d on the go. What is wrong with the Toshiba, or the Fujitsu, or even the Sager laptops for that matter?

I am strongly considering the Thinkpad W530 but it is a little above my price range. Perhaps with the student discount and selling this machine, I might be able to afford it. Very tempting, considering the high praise this thread gives to Thinkpads. Regardless, I will never buy a Mac, so that isn't an issue. This MSI GT627 I am using has been very capable over the years but I think the build quality is lower than a ASUS, Sager, or possibly Fujitsu.

The options xoticPC gives are pretty drat impressive. So much range! Does anyone know what their shipping is like?

sports: Macs have never been ideal for gaming. Not ideal for 3d mobile machines either. However, the guys that develop for Zbrush apparently develop it on a Mac. Of course, all Zbrush needs to run well is a strong CPU and a lot of ram. Mudbox requires a strong GPU, but not Zbrush.

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InstantInfidel
Jan 8, 2010

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InstantInfidel: I have a 3d workstation. This is for 3d on the go. What is wrong with the Toshiba, or the Fujitsu, or even the Sager laptops for that matter?

I am strongly considering the Thinkpad W530 but it is a little above my price range. Perhaps with the student discount and selling this machine, I might be able to afford it. Very tempting, considering the high praise this thread gives to Thinkpads. Regardless, I will never buy a Mac, so that isn't an issue. This MSI GT627 I am using has been very capable over the years but I think the build quality is lower than a ASUS, Sager, or possibly Fujitsu.

The options xoticPC gives are pretty drat impressive. So much range!

Toshiba builds cheap plastic junk, with the exception of their high-end mobile workstations. This is true for any consumer-grade desktop replacement, and you said you wanted some sort of durability. Avoid them all, it's why they're cheap. You're going to spend $1500+ to get what you want and to get something that does it well. You're also seriously shortchanging yourself by ruling out Macbooks. They're very solid hardware and beat the everlasting poo poo out of companies like Dell, HP, and Toshiba in terms of support, quality, and reliability. Bootcamp means you can dual-boot into Windows, so that's not really an issue any longer, if compatibility is your concern.

"3d graphics" is also a pretty broad category. Be more specific and we can tell you what you do or don't need; unfortunately, the W530 is the only Thinkpad worth looking at for color-sensitive work, and probably one of the cheapest that you'll find. The only other good option is HP's Elitebooks that come with their premium IPS panel, but you'll pay out the rear end for those.

edit:

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sports: Macs have never been ideal for gaming. Not ideal for 3d mobile machines either. However, the guys that develop for Zbrush apparently develop it on a Mac. Of course, all Zbrush needs to run well is a strong CPU and a lot of ram. Mudbox requires a strong GPU, but not Zbrush.

Bootcamp solves the gaming issue and any compatibility issues you might have. There's no reason not to consider a Mac, especially when it's essentially the only other laptop in your price range that isn't going to be cutting pretty major corners.

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sigma 6
Nov 27, 2004

the mirror would do well to reflect further

I need something which will handle zbrush and maya very well. Briefly considered getting a tablet (or samsung slate) but I am not sure the power is there yet. The lead 3d modeler from Naughty Dog uses a samsung slate to model in zbrush on the go, so that is something to consider.

Not going the Mac route because most everything I run is PC based and I don't want to spend the extra ram running virtualized PC apps. Also don't want to spend more on a Mac. I would rather put that extra money into better PC specs.

I currently run a I7 970 for my workstation at home because I was too poor to get a xeon. I know that I can't replace that power on the go but I am not sure a tablet or Surface Pro is good enough for 3d and digital illustration work. However, it is 2013, and tablets have come a long way. The Haswell chip has added a lot of battery life and improved integrated graphics, but I am more interested in discrete graphics and will keep it plugged in on the go for the most part. Just hoping it might drive down prices of slightly older laptops.

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InstantInfidel
Jan 8, 2010

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Ok. Well, a mobile Haswell i7 will get really drat close to your desktop's CPU power when it's plugged in, so that's not a concern for you. You also won't see any significant boost in performance by getting a Xeon for your desktop, either, so don't do that. I'm sticking with what I said before, if you're ruling out a Mac than I can't see any other option for you besides a W530 (540) with a Quadro. The drivers are rock-solid and it'll handle rendering loads like cake, but its gaming performance is something like 10% slower than an equivalent consumer graphics card.

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Not going the Mac route because most everything I run is PC based and I don't want to spend the extra ram running virtualized PC apps. Also don't want to spend more on a Mac. I would rather put that extra money into better PC specs.

You're not going to be virtualizing Windows, you're going to be booting directly into it. Things will run natively. Also, the Mac price premium is near zero for identically spec'ed and built machines. If you actually need all of the stuff that the Macbook Pro has it would cost you just as much to get an identical Windows box.

The W530 is the only non-Mac option for what you are wanting to do, and its compromise is that it's significantly bigger and heavier than any flavor of Macbook Pro. Also, it wouldn't surprise me a ton if modern mobile CPUs are as fast as that i7-970 at single-threaded work. You'll have enough CPU to get by, I'd worry a lot more about GPU.

I keep seeing you mention price sensitivity and student discounts. What you're asking for a laptop to do is extremely expensive, if you want something that can just barely get buy your cheapest option would be a more mainstream Thinkpad, but the screen would suck horribly. Generally digital illustration needs a decent screen, and all the laptops with powerful CPUs and good screens cost a fortune and are pretty big except the Retina MBP.

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Switched.on
Apr 25, 2008


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You have a large, glowing, Alien-shaped contraceptive on your laptop.

edit: also don't buy a gaming laptop at all. Build a desktop.
Well I already have a gaming desktop, but I need a machine I can move between rooms in my house for the next year. My girlfriend doesn't give a poo poo about glowing aliens, but maybe the fat black squares that Sager and MSI are worth another look. I do wish they had a chassis with aluminum on it, as I really like that facet of my MBP but I guess that all boils down to vanity (not a reason I'm all that interested in). I guess I do wish I could pry off that alien and replace it with a An Arc Reactor or something, but whatever.

What's the build quality on those bigger gaming laptops like anyways? Never seen one in person.

For the record, this gaming laptop won't even be leaving my home except for the very rare LAN party. I just need to be barely in my own home.

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InstantInfidel
Jan 8, 2010

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Alienware builds sturdy machines and Asus is right below them, but the rest are by and large chintzy crap.

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Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

This post is good to go


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You have a large, glowing, Alien-shaped contraceptive on your laptop.

I interviewed at a place where the IT director had an Alienware laptop on his loving desk.

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I interviewed at a place where the IT director had an Alienware laptop on his loving desk.

Bet you would've gotten the job if you'd put your WoW characters on your resume.

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sigma 6
Nov 27, 2004

the mirror would do well to reflect further

Just read this online:

Screen: the 1920x1080 screen on the W series has been described as one of the best notebook screens available. The new Retina screen has been described as revolutionary. Advantage: Apple

Power: both can be configured with very similar components. Advantage: even

Design: the Macbook Pro is roughly half the thichness and weighs a pound less. The Thinkpad has looked the same for years. Advantage: Apple

Connectivity: the Macbook Pro has 2 USB 3.0 ports, HDMI, audio, & 2 Thunderbolt ports. The Thinkpad has 2 USB 3.0 ports, 2 USB 2.0 ports (one of which is always available for charging), VGA, Mini DisplayPort, Ethernet, audio, and ExpressCard ports. Advantage: Lenovo

Battery Life: rated battery life for Retina Macbook Pro - 7 hours; rated battery life for W530 using same Watt-hour battery - 12.8 hours. Advantage: Lenovo

Durability: the Macbook has not passed any military spec tests, the W530 has. Advantage: Lenovo

Versatility: the Macbook is non-upgradeable, has no optical drive (although they offer an external USB-based optical drive), and all parts are soldered or glued into place or use proprietary connectors. The W530 has a detailed maintenance guide that tells how to replace every single part, memory and storage can be easily upgraded by user, ultrabay contains optical drive or additional hard drive according to user's needs. Advantage: Lenovo

Warranty: Apple is widely considered to have the best tech support in the business, but their warranty does not cover accidental damages. Lenovo is considered to have very good tech support as well, and their warranty can be configured to cover accidental damages. Advantage: even

Price: total estimated price to buy Retina Macbook Pro with my desired specifications - around $2800; total price to buy W530 including aftermarket memory & SSD upgrades - around $2400. Advantage: Lenovo


What is up with the thinkpad sales? Do they happen often? There is one ending tomorrow!! (12% off!)
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Sounds like a Haswell Asus or Sager might be a cheaper solution if I am willing to go without the Quadro GPU.

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As soon as one ThinkPad sale ends, another one begins, so don't worry about that. You also need to be using the link in the OP, which gives a pretty big discount. And you should wait for Haswell.

e: wow, they've updated the site and it doesn't run like total dogshit anymore.

e2: I take it back, it's still hosed up, just differently hosed up.

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Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

This post is good to go


Lenovo's go into space. Advantage: LENOVO

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sigma 6
Nov 27, 2004

the mirror would do well to reflect further

You mean wait for a Lenovo Haswell? Not sure I will have that option.

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netcat
Apr 28, 2008


Oh, the new Air looks so tempting. I don't really want to run OSX though so buying a Mac to put Windows on feels kinda dumb, but the price, build quality and support of Apples stuff is just so far ahead of the competition in my experience.

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Nov 9, 2004



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What is up with the thinkpad sales? Do they happen often? There is one ending tomorrow!! (12% off!)
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Sounds like a Haswell Asus or Sager might be a cheaper solution if I am willing to go without the Quadro GPU.

W530 is a great buy as a workstation, if you don't mind a full size, rather large laptop.

Check the OP, look for the there is a link to the B&N gold thing that gives you about a 25% discount over the main retail site. Myself and many (most?) others have used this link.

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Oct 11, 2008

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Battery Life: rated battery life for Retina Macbook Pro - 7 hours; rated battery life for W530 using same Watt-hour battery - 12.8 hours. Advantage: Lenovo

Lies lies lies. The Lenovo will last that long if you dim the screen to 10 nits, disable bluetooth, turn off the GPU, have a dual core CPU installed, and turn down the wifi card to all the way to "wireless charging" mode in which it gives energy back to the machine from ambient wifi signals.


sigma 6: you don't have to get a thinkpad. Those "cheap pieces of plastic" will work just fine if you're not a goonlord with how you handle the machine. And ASUS, Sony, and Toshiba generally have better failure rates than Lenovo. If you got some ASUS or Toshiba machine you wouldn't be making a mistake. (If you got a Sony you would be.)

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For a Thinkpad, they all say "starting at x.xx lbs". What exactly could you configure to add weight to it, other than a larger battery?

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Oct 11, 2008

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For a Thinkpad, they all say "starting at x.xx lbs". What exactly could you configure to add weight to it, other than a larger battery?

It's mostly the larger battery. You could also configure an ultrabay battery on some models. That affects the weight. You could configure a hard drive in the ultrabay instead of optical. With other stuff (mSATA, RAM, etc) you're just adding the weight of the chips, which is negligible. Some old W-series had a configurable touchscreen, which would affect things.

A backlit keyboard might increase weight too...

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T-Shaped
Jan 16, 2006

The weapons you pick up along the way help. At least they help you do less talking.

Honestly, I'd be thrilled if they just threw the innards of one of the Y410p laptops into a Thinkpad body. I'd buy it in a second.

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Vinlaen
Feb 19, 2008



Are there any convertible ultrabooks that are similiar to a Macbook Air but with a touchscreen?

I basically want an 11" or 13" Macbook Air, with a touchscreen, Haswell CPU (HD5000 GPU) and running Windows.

The only other problem I've experienced is that DPI scaling on Windows is a horrible, horrible mess. I had a Microsoft Surface Pro for a short while and I had lots of problems with games not scaling properly, the touchscreen not registering, etc.

I really like the look (and trackpad!) of the Macbook Air, but I'm still not sure if I want to stay on OSX/iOS...

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Are there any convertible ultrabooks that are similiar to a Macbook Air but with a touchscreen?

I basically want an 11" or 13" Macbook Air, with a touchscreen, Haswell CPU (HD5000 GPU) and running Windows.
Convertible like the Helix/Yoga/Surface or do you just mean a laptop with a touchscreen? streaming incest porn videos is coming out some time this year. The others will most certainly get Haswell updates as well.

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Vinlaen
Feb 19, 2008



I'm talking about full convertibles so I can use the ultrabook as a tablet OR a laptop.

"Tablet-mode" is really neat (espicially the Civilization 5 touch-optimized version!) but I know that 95% of games don't work properly with it so that why I want the full laptop experience as well. (and for the better viewing angle of the screen)

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I'm talking about full convertibles so I can use the ultrabook as a tablet OR a laptop.

"Tablet-mode" is really neat (espicially the Civilization 5 touch-optimized version!) but I know that 95% of games don't work properly with it so that why I want the full laptop experience as well. (and for the better viewing angle of the screen)

While touch-based interfaces are cool, the gimmick wears off quickly and you'll probably end up just using the laptop as you normally would.
Such is the fate of literally every touch screen/convertible laptop I know.

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