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The Slaughter
Jan 28, 2002

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I remember somebody here, maybe it was awseft, doing some RJ flight at 8000 or 10,000 but I think it was due to a broken pack or something that restricted their alt.

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Oct 6, 2005

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I've heard that Salt Lake City TRACON is deceptively difficult to work because of the lack of options. Those planes get down into the valley and they pretty much need to be set at their proper interval way ahead of time, because you can't turn them hardly anywhere due to the mountains. If you botch the sequence, there's no way out. I've heard stories of folks coming from other large TRACONs and having difficulty certifying at SLC.

One of the controllers jokingly told someone that every arrival into SLC has the potential to turn into a departure. It looks tough, seeing the controllers working one of the STARs and final approach segments on a day that wasn't even busy sounding a bit harried.

I'm liking ATC humor though, there was a sign in the break room stating that a "seagull traffic flow" management program was in place, and the door marked in the tower cab as "NOT AN EXIT...unless equipped with a parachute"

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Jun 27, 2004


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EDIT: This may not be obvious to everyone so I should clarify. Jet engines are very inefficient at low altitudes. 10,000ft is an unreasonably low altitude for a jet making a long flight. They tend to cruise between 30,000 and 45,000ft. It's unlikely you could even make it from coast to coast at 10,000ft without running out of gas midway.

I was curious about this, and it turns out an A320 can go from sfo to jfk at 15000ft but takes an additional 10k lbs of fuel and an extra hour. It can make it non stop as long as the flight isn't full.

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Mar 24, 2005

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I remember somebody here, maybe it was awseft, doing some RJ flight at 8000 or 10,000 but I think it was due to a broken pack or something that restricted their alt.
We get those ever now and then through our airspace at Potomac, I think they're usually just a one way trip so they can get the repairs done. It's very strange though, the routes are that altitude are typically occupied by cessnas and cherokees, and then a CRJ or an E145 comes bombing down at 10,000.

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PkerUNO
Dec 21, 2007

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This is a subject that interests me quite a lot. I've always thought that ATC was a bit like playing a high-stakes puzzle game, where you have to fit planes together in the most efficient way, juggling your attention between them to keep them from touching. This rather simplistic view may be entirely caused by my adoration for the Japanese "I Am An Air Traffic Controller" series of videogames - 8 mile sex scen (PC) & rihanna nude photos uncensored (PSP). I gather the job in real life isn't quite as... arcadey?

I half-seriously thought of looking into the actual job, but trying out the sample games on the NATS site kinda made me realise not all video game skills translate well to real life. That and I'm guessing suffering from IBS automatically rules you out.

I'm guessing a lot of the job is simply routine and not all of your working day will be stressful, but do you get really difficult pilots to deal with? Like, the same level of difficult customers that ground staff have to deal with? Or is everyone unequivocally professional, calm and collected at all times?

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The Slaughter
Jan 28, 2002

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To answer your question:
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So yes, even the professionals can be dicks. But mostly people are pretty professional.

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Jan 25, 2005

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I think so. And honestly that sounds like the sweetest gig. You're retiring around the same time that the FAA would be hiring a bunch of new people (to replace the retirees) and at that point you're a subject matter expert hopefully. All of my instructors at OKC were retired FAA controllers. I went to OKC twice. Once for tower school and again for radar school since my facility had both.

I think they make $60-80k/yr or something and that's on top of their retirement benefits from the FAA. It's gravy.

I can tell you that while the guys at OKC make a bit more, the other guys doing this job don't make that kind of money.

I wanted to chime in and say that applying for these jobs, aka RPO or remote pilot operator, doesn't take any aviation experience as most of them are just college kids or cti grads who are waiting to get picked up. If you are interested in being a controller this is actually a decent way to get indoctrinated in some of the in-n-outs of controlling and its like basically paid training as you will become familiar with aircraft, phraseology, and apparently from what I've been hearing the FAA might start giving preference to rpo folks if you listen to gossip. I think someone at the agency anecdotally discovered that RPOs had an easier time getting qualified since they were used to the heavy workload. A controller trainee only has to be one person/sector, a rpo has to be 100 different people and fly 100 planes (keyboard entry) an hour and every other sector not being run by a trainee or instructor.

Job openings for this ki d of work is slim though as basically you are filling the slot some other guy who got picked up was in, or the odd retiree whos double dipping until they really retire.

I was a Navy controller and I tried to get in by the skin of my teeth before turning 31 and it didn't pan out (my interview ended up being a month after my 31st bday) and now I'm doing this job.

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The Bramble
Mar 16, 2004



All right, the application period for the trainee ATCs is over in about 3 hours. Just tinkered with my resume and re-submitted it. I'll be watching this thread for people to announce if they end up hearing something back. And if I end up getting a sweet job because I played superheroes with Tommy years and years ago, then I will flip my poo poo in this thread.

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Tommy 2.0
Apr 26, 2008

My fabulous CoX shall live forever!

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All right, the application period for the trainee ATCs is over in about 3 hours. Just tinkered with my resume and re-submitted it. I'll be watching this thread for people to announce if they end up hearing something back. And if I end up getting a sweet job because I played superheroes with Tommy years and years ago, then I will flip my poo poo in this thread.

<3

Maybe some day a miracle will happen and we can play superheroes again.

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Feb 2, 2004
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We get those ever now and then through our airspace at Potomac, I think they're usually just a one way trip so they can get the repairs done. It's very strange though, the routes are that altitude are typically occupied by cessnas and cherokees, and then a CRJ or an E145 comes bombing down at 10,000.

We get that a lot at ZDC especially during summer months. The high sectors will get swamped so tmu puts out a cap of something like fl200. Your options are fly dca to fll at 20k or delay until the cap is lifted. Of course the pilots always check in requesting higher.

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MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


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We get that a lot at ZDC especially during summer months. The high sectors will get swamped so tmu puts out a cap of something like fl200. Your options are fly dca to fll at 20k or delay until the cap is lifted. Of course the pilots always check in requesting higher.

FLL is hilariously hosed right now; They only have a single strip of concrete at the moment. Lots of guys trying to sneak south VFR, and then pick up IFR around Orlando getting told to gently caress-right-off.

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Tommy 2.0
Apr 26, 2008

My fabulous CoX shall live forever!

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FLL is hilariously hosed right now; They only have a single strip of concrete at the moment. Lots of guys trying to sneak south VFR, and then pick up IFR around Orlando getting told to gently caress-right-off.

A lot of pilots think that departing/flying VFR is pretty much the cure-all for any ailment air traffic related. 99% of the time that works, but when it doesn't...yeesh.

Pilots departing VFR in IFR conditions probably piss me off more than anything. I know that isn't the case there, but it made me think of one of our busier uncontrolled airports we have where this happens a lot. They depart VFR, start climbing through other plane's altitudes, call us up for an IFR clearance.

pilot: center we are position alitude looking for our ifr clearance to bumfuck
center: lol no we can't, maintain VFR
pilot: uhh we can't maintain VFR
center: *sigh*

Well, sir, good job on not only endangering yourself but everyone else trying to fly. A lot of times these guys doing this will depart in the opposite direction of guys we just cleared in. Yeah, the WX is jusssssssssst at the minimum to depart VFR. That doesn't mean it is a good idea.

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Athazagoraphobia
Jan 30, 2005

We built this kitty. We built this kitty on rock and roll!

Do controllers talk poo poo about Reagan? I live in DC and I'm always amazed that the man who hosed over air traffic controllers has an airport named after him.

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The Slaughter
Jan 28, 2002

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A lot of pilots think that departing/flying VFR is pretty much the cure-all for any ailment air traffic related. 99% of the time that works, but when it doesn't...yeesh.

Pilots departing VFR in IFR conditions probably piss me off more than anything. I know that isn't the case there, but it made me think of one of our busier uncontrolled airports we have where this happens a lot. They depart VFR, start climbing through other plane's altitudes, call us up for an IFR clearance.

pilot: center we are position alitude looking for our ifr clearance to bumfuck
center: lol no we can't, maintain VFR
pilot: uhh we can't maintain VFR
center: *sigh*

Well, sir, good job on not only endangering yourself but everyone else trying to fly. A lot of times these guys doing this will depart in the opposite direction of guys we just cleared in. Yeah, the WX is jusssssssssst at the minimum to depart VFR. That doesn't mean it is a good idea.

what's the backend process when I call the clearance delivery hotline?

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Tommy 2.0
Apr 26, 2008

My fabulous CoX shall live forever!

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Do controllers talk poo poo about Reagan? I live in DC and I'm always amazed that the man who hosed over air traffic controllers has an airport named after him.

When I worked in PWM a lot of the old controllers refused to call DCA by the name Regan. I feel the same way. What he did doesn't just affect controllers, basically any worker in the USA. I'm going to stop talking. I'm just going to get more angry.

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what's the backend process when I call the clearance delivery hotline?

Back end process? You mean when you are still on the ground? If so, the safest place for you to be is on the ground so it works out better in terms of safety pretty much 100% of the time if done correctly.

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The Slaughter
Jan 28, 2002

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No, I mean I'm on the ground, at an uncontrolled airport with no FSS reachable, so I call the clearance delivery hotline to get my IFR clearance. Now what's happening behind the scenes to get me off the ground and in the system IFR?

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The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

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No, I mean I'm on the ground, at an uncontrolled airport with no FSS reachable, so I call the clearance delivery hotline to get my IFR clearance. Now what's happening behind the scenes to get me off the ground and in the system IFR?

Flight service will call the ATC facility's flight data position. Sometimes at smaller facilities that position is combined with an actual control position, so you're talking to the radar controller themselves.

Flight data will issue the clearance to the FSS specialist, and an instruction to hold for release while they coordinate with the radar controller responsible for that airport. When flight service is relaying the clearance, we try to get this done while they're still on the line because we can't call the specific FSS specialist back directly. Usually the radar controller is able to issue release instructions to the Flight Data controller and we can relay that to FSS who then relays it to you (you've probably been on hold this whole time, it takes a couple minutes).

If there is traffic management flow affecting your arrival airport, then we don't have any choice but to ask FSS to call us back in a couple minute so we can call Traffic Management and ask for your release time. If the airport is controlled by the Center where the Traffic Management Unit resides, this may be simpler. But at my TRACON, we have to make a separate call to TMU.

Hopefully we can get back to FSS quickly and issue a release time that's reasonable to allow FSS to relay the information to the pilot, and the pilot to get to the runway and takeoff. It's a fairly cumbersome process but it's necessary as you know, when the airport is locked down by bad weather. If the radar controller is busy they aren't going to give Flight Data priority to issue departure instructions, so we may have to keep FSS waiting for several minutes until we can get a word in. If other lines start ringing during this time, Flight Data can actually become a fairly busy position for once.

Calling the ATC facility's clearance line directly streamlines this process quite a bit, if it's available. I wasn't sure if you were talking about FSS clearance delivery or the ATC facility clearance delivery phone number. If the latter, just ignore what I said about the instructions getting relayed, you need only wait for the facility's flight data controller to get things coordinated with the radar controller (or if you're lucky you're talking directly to the radar controller and they can issue your release immediately).

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Do controllers talk poo poo about Reagan? I live in DC and I'm always amazed that the man who hosed over air traffic controllers has an airport named after him.

I've heard that controllers in the Northeast call that airport "National" for that very reason. ATC didn't get to pick that name, I'm afraid.

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pilot: center we are position alitude looking for our ifr clearance to bumfuck
center: lol no we can't, maintain VFR
pilot: uhh we can't maintain VFR

I love the feedback loop that results from a pilot just not getting the message when requesting IFR below the minimum IFR altitude (slightly different from your scenario, since yours is a traffic/volume conflict).

If the weather is bad and a pilot has departed wanting to pick up an instrument clearance, but they're still below the minimum instrument altitude for that area, we have to ask them if they are able to maintain their own terrain and obstruction clearance in their climb to the minimum altitude. If the answer is in the affirmative, we may issue them the clearance. If the answer is negative, our book says to tell them to "maintain vfr and say intentions." This results in a hilarious exchange when the pilot isn't getting the message.

"N12345, approach, are you able to maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and 2,000?"
"Negative, N12345."
"N12345, maintain VFR say intentions."
"We'd like to pick up our IFR clearance to Bumfuck, TN"
"N12345, are you able to maintain your......."

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MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

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No, I mean I'm on the ground, at an uncontrolled airport with no FSS reachable, so I call the clearance delivery hotline to get my IFR clearance. Now what's happening behind the scenes to get me off the ground and in the system IFR?

FSS calls the approach or center sector responsible for that sector, and they issue the appropriate clearance, or issue a hold for release, or whatever.

Some pilot a few months ago managed to bug someone into giving him the area desk phone number. He called up, freaked the supervisor out pretty good and I issued the clearance off Sebring directly, over the (recorded) phone.

Even a clearance from a big controlled field in an approach control gets "approved" by the host center before it gets issued, though. We get strips about an hour before the proposed departure time, and in my facilities case, we can make amendments up till 30min prior, or up until 10min prior, if we call the tower and let them know. We're the reason your filed route gets changed by the clearance delivery controller.

Also, some dispatches are really good about learning our preferred routings, while it seems like others learn them just as well, and then purposely file batshit-stupid routes just to watch us twitch.

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Tommy 2.0
Apr 26, 2008

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I love the feedback loop that results from a pilot just not getting the message when requesting IFR below the minimum IFR altitude


Right? It would be adorable if it wasn't so drat infuriating.

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The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

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This is a subject that interests me quite a lot. I've always thought that ATC was a bit like playing a high-stakes puzzle game, where you have to fit planes together in the most efficient way, juggling your attention between them to keep them from touching. This rather simplistic view may be entirely caused by my adoration for the Japanese "I Am An Air Traffic Controller" series of videogames - taya parker naked videos (PC) & anal sex with granny (PSP). I gather the job in real life isn't quite as... arcadey?

I think the radar screens look pretty arcadey, yes. The biggest difference is that a lot of ATC isn't as twitchy as the above video games, or other flash games approximating ATC. There are tons of rules, tons of procedures. Separation goes beyond making sure they don't hit. You need prescribed distances and altitudes between certain airplanes. Good controllers safely run airplanes as closely to those minimum distances as possible, but it's done smartly. Any risk is calculated and you leave yourself with options to get out if something goes wrong.

Some ATC facilities are rather sleepy. Very low, or very inconsistent traffic. You might go your whole day without having to resolve any separation conflicts at all. Even on days when I've been rather busy, sometimes the planes just show up in the right order/spacing already, and I'd have to try drat hard to get them too close together. Other days you get 2 airplanes in the airspace, 100nm apart, and they are going to meet up at exactly the same point in space if you don't fix it.

What you're paid for, and what you're trained for, is the knowledge and ability to work these conflicts out when they happen. If you're good at it, you can run pretty busy traffic without breaking much of a sweat at all, because you make a good plan the first time and execute it well. All that's left to do is keep up with new additions and scan your traffic for anomalies. If you're always reacting at the last second, unsure of your control decisions, constantly amending clearances/instructions, the job gets tense in a hurry. At the very very busy places, the margin between the two styles is pretty thin

quote:

I half-seriously thought of looking into the actual job, but trying out the sample games on the NATS site kinda made me realise not all video game skills translate well to real life. That and I'm guessing suffering from IBS automatically rules you out.

I'm not certain this would rule you out completely. I work with a guy who has Crohn's Disease, even, and is on medication. It depends on many variables. They wouldn't let you take anti depressants to medicate for it (I understand this is sometimes a medication used for IBS since it blocks the offending nerves) but there might be combinations of diagnoses/medications that comply with the requirements of an Airman's 2nd class medical.

[quote]
I'm guessing a lot of the job is simply routine and not all of your working day will be stressful, but do you get really difficult pilots to deal with? Like, the same level of difficult customers that ground staff have to deal with? Or is everyone unequivocally professional, calm and collected at all times?

It's mostly calm and professional but there are exceptions. What makes this job so drastically different from my time in sales and customer service, is that I'm always in a position of authority. If a pilot starts mouthing off, they're the ones behaving badly and I don't have to take it. I'll continue to handle their flight like I would normally, and then they'll get a call from the flight standards office at a later time about their unacceptable conduct. Sometimes pilots get snippy, sometimes controllers get snippy, you just let it roll off unless it's really bad. Honestly the kind of hostility I'm referring to has to be bad enough that the pilot probably isn't mentally sound anyway, and they should have their certificates examined.

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Do controllers talk poo poo about Reagan? I live in DC and I'm always amazed that the man who hosed over air traffic controllers has an airport named after him.

I had to look this up and holy poo poo, he fired 90% of the ATCs because they striked? And he dared to do that under the guise of national security?

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The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

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Welcome to near 100% attrition every 25-30 years due to retirements.

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MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

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I had to look this up and holy poo poo, he fired 90% of the ATCs because they striked? And he dared to do that under the guise of national security?

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REAGAN IS THE DEVIL isn't exactly the whole story, as is normal.

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Welcome to near 100% attrition every 25-30 years due to retirements.

If ZMA gets the lvl12 we're thinking we're about to get, all the eligible controllers walking out the front door is going to be HILARIOUS.

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Cocoa Crispies
Jul 20, 2001

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If ZMA gets the lvl12 we're thinking we're about to get, all the eligible controllers walking out the front door is going to be HILARIOUS.

Won't that mean raises for everyone?

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MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

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Won't that mean raises for everyone?

Raises, plus retroactive back pay, which also (generally) bumps the highest three years worth of income, which nudges the pensions up. Word is, some people at Albuquerque center walked away essentially with a bigger pension than they had the day before, and checks for ~$100k, from all the back pay. That's a damned fine reason to say screw-it, and retire, if you're already eligible.

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Tommy 2.0
Apr 26, 2008

My fabulous CoX shall live forever!

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Raises, plus retroactive back pay, which also (generally) bumps the highest three years worth of income, which nudges the pensions up. Word is, some people at Albuquerque center walked away essentially with a bigger pension than they had the day before, and checks for ~$100k, from all the back pay. That's a damned fine reason to say screw-it, and retire, if you're already eligible.

Stuff like this cracks me up. Here we are doing more volume than three other lvl 12s yet we can't get any footing in an argument for going from lvl 11 to lvl 12 at my facility. I hope you guys get it.

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Jun 17, 2012

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Stuff like this cracks me up. Here we are doing more volume than three other lvl 12s yet we can't get any footing in an argument for going from lvl 11 to lvl 12 at my facility. I hope you guys get it.

Apparently a re-working of how oceanic traffic is counted is a big factor for us. It looks promising.

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Tommy 2.0
Apr 26, 2008

My fabulous CoX shall live forever!

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Apparently a re-working of how oceanic traffic is counted is a big factor for us. It looks promising.

I think what hurts us is the sheer ridiculous amount of military airspace we have that is technically our's, but we don't get to use. Pretty much the entire east coast from middle of Florida, up to somewhere in ZDC's airspace is military and is SFC-510. It goes to the east about 150 miles or something too. What that leaves is a small corridor for our AR traffic. But all that airspace we can't use is technically our's. And that isn't even talking about all the stuff we have over land.

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MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


Related: Blue alerts for AR traffic clipping the corner of Tailhook drives me loving insane.

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Related: Blue alerts for AR traffic clipping the corner of Tailhook drives me loving insane.

Haha, you aren't on ERAM.

It's pretty nice almost never having to deal with stupid military stuff. We have one AR route and a couple of MOA's near our airspace and that's it.

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The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

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So I've recently achieved 5 year veteran status in the FAA and I still have no idea what the gently caress you guys are talking about.

Any clarification to make this thread more accessible to the layman would be greatly appreciated.

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SaltPig
Jun 21, 2004



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So I've recently achieved 5 year veteran status in the FAA and I still have no idea what the gently caress you guys are talking about.

Any clarification to make this thread more accessible to the layman would be greatly appreciated.

ERAM is the new radar display software we have at the centers. It looks pretty much the same but is much more reliable and is going to be able to handle future developments, like ADSB and such.

It also has backlit keyboards.

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The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

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I'm guessing AR is Aerial Refueling. And what is Tailhook? And Blue alerts? I'm not asking just for me, mind you.

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Iucounu
May 12, 2007




Best of luck to all you goons who have applied, this is truly the best job in the world.

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Jun 27, 2004


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I'm guessing AR is Aerial Refueling. And what is Tailhook? And Blue alerts? I'm not asking just for me, mind you.

AR traffic I'm assuming are the routes off the east coast

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The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

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What routes? North Atlantic Tracks (NATs)?

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JohnClark
Mar 24, 2005

Well that's less than ideal


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What routes? North Atlantic Tracks (NATs)?
ARs are Atlantic routes, we use them most commonly at our place for guys headed down to Florida. They're restricted to aircraft with the proper equipment though (life rafts and so forth) and they often get shutdown when there are rocket launches from the Cape, especially when the space shuttle was still flying.

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MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


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ARs are Atlantic routes, we use them most commonly at our place for guys headed down to Florida. They're restricted to aircraft with the proper equipment though (life rafts and so forth) and they often get shutdown when there are rocket launches from the Cape, especially when the space shuttle was still flying.

This.

Tailhook is one of the great big warning areas over the Atlantic. Northbound traffic over AR18 clips the southeast corner of it. (It doesn't ACTUALLY clip it, but the computer is over-cautious, so every single loving airplane shows up in conflict whenever it's hot.)

Blue alerts are potential airspace violations in URET. There are also yellow and red alerts for conflicts between aircraft. ERAM changes blue alerts to amber, because what the gently caress, how could we free cartoons having sex NOT give LockMart another couple million dollars.

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squeakygeek
Oct 27, 2005


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So I've recently achieved 5 year veteran status in the FAA and I still have no idea what the gently caress you guys are talking about.

Any clarification to make this thread more accessible to the layman would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

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