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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


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Mel in bad ideas about literary merit shocker

"Soap Operas have literary merit" - Ras Het apparently

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Ras Het
May 23, 2007

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You're always talking about that book where the Alaskan dude fucks his mum or something, that's a classic soap setup

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Tree Goat
May 24, 2009

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Like think about The Walking Dead tv show. What is the narrative of that show? There isn't one. It is simply events happening in the hope enough people watch the events happen so that they can make more episodes where more events happen.

there's definitely a distinction in prestige between plots that are intended to conclude and plots that can be arbitrarily extended. tv has realized this and that is why shows like lost and bsg will throw out the signifiers of a coherent overarching narrative (prophecies, plans, foreshadowing) while having none. i'm not certain that's specifically a genre distinction or a genre trapping, though.

but perhaps the true "soap opera narrative that must be kept going past all point of reason and into absurdity" is... capitalism

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Jan 21, 2010

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i read those wheel of time books as a teen, cause teens just read everything and have no idea what's good, so i thought it was normal to go on forever about meaningless poo poo. so when i first read asimov (yeah i know he's not great either, but imagine the contrast) my mind was blown over simple things like 'every character has a purpose and or function to the plot', and 'unimportant scenery is not described, or is described in two sentences in stead of two pages'

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vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

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Also TV is an imperfect comparison because some prestige shows are designed to be like one novel telling a defined story from start to finish, in something like Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul, where there's an end the creators know they're building up to. A show like the Walking Dead is more like a series of bad fantasy novels where it goes on forever and there are storylines that continue from season to season but each season is designed to be like its own standalone bad novel in a series that just keeps going forever as long as the fantasy fans keep buying them.

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J_RBG
May 20, 2014



We need genre books to exist so directors can make good films that actively spite the source material

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Sep 22, 2013


To be fair, WoT got so much loving better once Jordan knew he was going to die. He was not nearly as concerned with fields and what not.

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pleasecallmechrist
Sep 22, 2013


I'm not defending Walking Dead, though they did have an homage to Mice and Men that was godamn brutal, but I thought the highbrow approach preferred lack of narrative.

For example, if one wanted to try to make Walking Dead sound like it has a purpose they would say it is a study of mankind without the guise of civilization or whatever the gently caress which would seem more interesting than point A to point B

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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

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a big part of the issue is that people have no idea what literary criticism is or does, besides the fact that "criticism" means saying mean things about something and people who like "literary" books thing genre books are trash

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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011


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I mean I am not even trying to troll that thread or anything. I am just trying to grasp how a book can be that big.

Like, one book is as long as War and Peace and it's part of a series of novels. What the gently caress is being written about?

Apparently Wheel of Time is about a chosen one fighting the dark lord and it goes for 10,000 pages. How can you possibly tell that story for 10,000 pages.

There are poo poo tons of little subplots and character moments that aren’t directly related to the plot. It’s why I never bothered picking up the third book in that series because I had forgotten so much of the other two. It’s akso why he has so many beta readers to help him keep the details consistent.

It’s no surprise that Sandersons best book is a novella. People want to get lost in worlds though. The Way of Kings is the literary equivalent of playing Elder Scrolls.

If you want to see true horror try out the 100 hour visual novel genre, like Fate Stay/Night. That’s true trash but its fans will defend it more vociferously than any of us defend genre work.

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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

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that and the fact they have conflated "art" with "escapism". like that dude's bit about how lit crit is failing to recognize the value of books that keeps their readers hooked for 10k pages or whatever shows that he has absolutely no concept of a difference between art and entertainment

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Mar 18, 2007

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For example, if one wanted to try to make Walking Dead sound like it has a purpose they would say it is a study of mankind without the guise of civilization or whatever the gently caress which would seem more interesting than point A to point B

its not that tho. its a soap opera with zombies

much like comic books, which are also soap operas

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


I've always found the idea that art should be escapist to be horrifying

Art should rub your nose in the truth of existence like you are a dog who pissed the rug

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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011


I find whenever a book does that, with characters facing some awful existential terror or physical horror, I feel comforted. Like “wow, I should feel lucky for my standard of living” or “ah good these thoughts are shared by others too”
Not sure what that says about me as a person.

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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

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all art should be didactic, compelling you towards virtue and unification with the Logos

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like, oh boy the new 800 page book full of tedious overlong descriptions and hundreds of pages of irrelevant fluff

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Sep 2, 2018


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I find whenever a book does that, with characters facing some awful existential terror or physical horror, I feel comforted. Like “wow, I should feel lucky for my standard of living” or “ah good these thoughts are shared by others too”
Not sure what that says about me as a person.

This is why I like horror movies.

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Tree Goat
May 24, 2009

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all art should be didactic, compelling you towards virtue and unification with the Logos

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all art should be didactic, compelling you towards virtue and unification with the Logos

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Apr 2, 2003



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I ventured in and found this


Is this what all the genre fiction threads are like? This is fun

Fiction: almost as good as a video game

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A human heart
Oct 10, 2012



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late response but that's a cool book, i was surprised by how much i enjoyed the style. just beautifully written stuff.

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K. Flaps
Dec 7, 2012



I've been reading Kant. That's right folks, The Aula by famous east-german novelist and party official Hermann Kant. Kind of a mixed bag, since I expected just full-on dreary socialist realism but the book actually has some humor in it, like the part where the main character gets the party to send his friend off to study sinology in china for seven years because he thinks that guy stole his gf.

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mdemone
Mar 14, 2001

There is no route out of the maze. The maze shifts as you move through it, because it is alive.


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I've always found the idea that art should be escapist to be horrifying

Art should rub your nose in the truth of existence like you are a dog who pissed the rug

To me, it's entertainment that is escapist. Art may be idealist at times but generally has power that comes from the truths of life.

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vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.


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I've always found the idea that art should be escapist to be horrifying

Art should rub your nose in the truth of existence like you are a dog who pissed the rug

Okay Vissarion

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Solitair
Feb 18, 2014


Wanting to know what justification a series of books has for being so long has always been the main reason why I'd like to give free evan stone porn In Search of Lost Time a shot.

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mdemone
Mar 14, 2001

There is no route out of the maze. The maze shifts as you move through it, because it is alive.


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Wanting to know what justification a series of books has for being so long has always been the main reason why I'd like to give homer and lisa sex In Search of Lost Time a shot.

It's the same justification as I read some critic give for Knausgaard. There's no way the project should work, any multi-thousand page autobiographical novel about writing a multi-thousand page autobiographical novel should be a resoundingly unreadable mess, but he's just that drat good at prose.

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


Yeah I feel like Knausgard and Proust get a pass because the whole point is the search for identity and permanence in the collection of memory

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J_RBG
May 20, 2014



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late response but that's a cool book, i was surprised by how much i enjoyed the style. just beautifully written stuff.

Yah it's drat cool, unashamedly sentimental at times, really unconventional. It shouldn't work, it really does. Also it did the rare thing of hooking me from page one

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