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Moey
Oct 22, 2010

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Central VA, and although I work with a medium-sized agency with a national footprint, 90% of my business is local. Shoot me a PM if you like.

Not currently looking, but will keep you in mind when the time comes. Thanks.

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I don't want to bore you all with recruiter talk, but I do think it's important for you all to tell the difference between good recruiters and the mercenaries out there.

Would love a technical recruiter thread. There's a lot of anecdotes flying around -- I know I'm guilty of it -- and it would be great to get your perspective.

I always just link to the Kalzumeus blog post, as it's worked so well for me, but I recognize that might not be the case for everyone.

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I might be in the minority, but seeing as how most of my jobs for the last 5 years or so have been contract positions, I honestly think I would prefer some recruiter talk. We all know IT, but for some of us our experience with recruiters is either non-existent or drat little, and we view them with about as much enthusiasm as encountering pond scum in the pool.

I want to know how to find a good recruiter, what questions to ask, which questions are okay to answer, and pretty much anything else I would need to know in order to get the most out of dealing with a recruiter. Primarily, I want to know when I'm dealing with some bullshit artist who's feeding me a line and when I'm dealing with a real professional who knows their poo poo.

I agree with this entirely.

I like my current recruiter, and feel comfortable with him and the agency. However, from what I've gathered, the agency is sort of on the lower end of the spectrum and also takes one of the largest cuts. It's generally referred to as the entrance level agency for the area. With this in mind, I feel like I have a good relationship with them and feel like they are working for my best interests, but I'm probably just a huge sucker.

One part of this discussion that I would personally like to focus on its renegotiating contracts. As I've mentioned before, I love my current job and want to stay, but unfortunately it's in the air as to whether my boss is going to be able to hire us on perm. There may be an offer for extension, with which my boss already said would come with an increase in pay (no specific amount yet.)

Now, my position had also inherited a major role. The guy whose role I inherited was easily making double what I'm making (his 10+ years experience vs my 4).

Using general numbers here:
If: I'm currently 20/hr, contracted with no bennies
And: I was originally told that after the 6 months is up they want to hire me at 50k with complete bennies
And: I inherited the role of a guy who I can safely assume was making close to 6 figures
Then: how much should I reasonably expect for a contract extension?

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Oct 19, 2004

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And: I inherited the role of a guy who I can safely assume was making close to 6 figures

How do you know this? I've seen people get in trouble negotiating before because they assume that the people around them are making more than they are based on hearsay or water-cooler talk.

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How do you know this? I've seen people get in trouble negotiating before because they assume that the people around them are making more than they are based on hearsay or water-cooler talk.

You're right, it's an assumption I'm making based on his 12+ years experience and qualifications / position at this company. I guess that's what I'm asking for input on - how to go about this because I'm definitely not trying to get into any trouble when it comes down to it.

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Jul 24, 2004

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You're right, it's an assumption I'm making based on his 12+ years experience and qualifications / position at this company. I guess that's what I'm asking for input on - how to go about this because I'm definitely not trying to get into any trouble when it comes down to it.

Everyone cuts their own deal in life, in work, and other stuff that's E/N thread-worthy. In this situation, you don't have 12 years of experience, even though you have this guy's job/title. So it stands to reason that even if you do the job as well as he did, in most companies you aren't just automatically going to step into his pay grade.

You justify your salary not only with skill and experience, but with loyalty/longevity of service to the company as well. So, with that said, I would take the same approach I recommended earlier. Find out what desktop architects make in your area, as opposed to focusing on what this guy was making. Have all your bullet points ready to go - what you do well, how you have stepped in and owned the role, and anything else that is in your favor, and set up a conversation. If you are at $50K and the average desktop arch is getting paid $80K, then I'd be happy somewhere in the middle there.

Annnnd I just realized you are on contract, which throws another wrinkle into the mix. If your recruiter is any good and has the latitude to do so, they have already started another conversation with the client since you are holding a much more senior role now. It's unlikely they are going to be able to pay you more unless the client pays them more. I had a project manager take on a more senior program manager role here and even though he deserved it, I was unable to pay him any more. But given the drastic title change for you (architect I believe?), I can't imagine the client would/could refuse a conversation about that.

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Everyone cuts their own deal in life, in work, and other stuff that's E/N thread-worthy. In this situation, you don't have 12 years of experience, even though you have this guy's job/title. So it stands to reason that even if you do the job as well as he did, in most companies you aren't just automatically going to step into his pay grade.

You justify your salary not only with skill and experience, but with loyalty/longevity of service to the company as well. So, with that said, I would take the same approach I recommended earlier. Find out what desktop architects make in your area, as opposed to focusing on what this guy was making. Have all your bullet points ready to go - what you do well, how you have stepped in and owned the role, and anything else that is in your favor, and set up a conversation. If you are at $50K and the average desktop arch is getting paid $80K, then I'd be happy somewhere in the middle there.

Annnnd I just realized you are on contract, which throws another wrinkle into the mix. If your recruiter is any good and has the latitude to do so, they have already started another conversation with the client since you are holding a much more senior role now. It's unlikely they are going to be able to pay you more unless the client pays them more. I had a project manager take on a more senior program manager role here and even though he deserved it, I was unable to pay him any more. But given the drastic title change for you (architect I believe?), I can't imagine the client would/could refuse a conversation about that.

Thanks for this. Yes, architect is correct. I had a meeting last week with my agency, during which time I explained the new role (with no mention of the other guys salary), and I know they have yet to talk with my boss.

I'm really not too worried as it sounds like I'm in a good position (however I'm still updating my resume just in case).

I've also heard it said that benefits can amount to around 30% of your salary. Is that a fair estimate?

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Dark Helmut
Jul 24, 2004

All growns up


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Thanks for this. Yes, architect is correct. I had a meeting last week with my agency, during which time I explained the new role (with no mention of the other guys salary), and I know they have yet to talk with my boss.

I'm really not too worried as it sounds like I'm in a good position (however I'm still updating my resume just in case).

I've also heard it said that benefits can amount to around 30% of your salary. Is that a fair estimate?

I think you would make yourself nuts trying to quantify/generalize it like that. Instead, I would just look at the big ones - vacation, health care cost, stock options, and maybe the 401K match if they have it. My company chips in like $2400/yr for my HSA, so I would include that for example.

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I think you would make yourself nuts trying to quantify/generalize it like that. Instead, I would just look at the big ones - vacation, health care cost, stock options, and maybe the 401K match if they have it. My company chips in like $2400/yr for my HSA, so I would include that for example.

Yeah that makes sense. I guess I have the same feeling as skipdogg where he said

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I much rather work a 70K a year job where I get 3 or 4 weeks of vacation and have a really nice low deductible PPO than make 80K a year with 1 week vacation and lovely insurance.

Anyways, I'm just trying to get a general idea and make sure I'm going about it the right way. Thanks for the input.

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Jul 20, 2009


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I'm in the Chicagoland area. I'm working with a recruiter right now and he has given me a couple OK leads, but nothing that is making me leave where I'm at right now. However, he is constantly asking what I'm making at my current job because "When I'm is asked, I need to be able to provide a number and justify why you're (me) worth" [current salary] + X amount more. It sounds like a bunch of crap to me, and I dodged that question and said "Well, I'm looking in the Y to Z range" which was fine for the first part of our conversation, but at the end he asked again and said "Well, the HR department at your next job is going to ask and find out, so it's in your best interest to be honest with me." I don't mind letting close friends know what I make, but I don't tell it to complete strangers that call me out of the blue for a job I applied for 3 months ago. I don't know, it just seemed really annoying that he wouldn't get off of what I make now, even after telling him that the same job in two different industries will pay completely different, it's not just about salary but the total compensation package, and my current salary has no impact on what I'm looking to make in my next role, all that good stuff.

Is this pretty common with recruiters, asking to know your current salary? Do I just have a lovely recruiter contacting me (my gut says yes)? Do any of you have good recruiters/companies that you know/have worked with in the Chicagoland area that you would recommend?

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I don't want to bore you all with recruiter talk, but I do think it's important for you all to tell the difference between good recruiters and the mercenaries out there.

I'd love for you to bore us with recruiter talk. Do you have any advice on how to seek out a good recruiter? The last time I was in the job market I only ever came into contact with recruiters when they called me first. I received frequent contact from people who were quite obviously only looking to load my resume into their shotgun (a lot seemed to work for the same handful of companies as well..). The only one that I ever thought was actually interested in working with me to find a good fit didn't contact me until after I had already accepted the offer on my current job. I never bothered to save their contact info, but the next time I'm looking for work I'd like to be more proactive in finding a recruiter or two right off the bat as opposed to waiting until they find me. What are the best ways to get in touch with recruiters and what are the good and bad signs to look for? I've only ever worked full time and don't see myself interested in a contract position if that changes your answer.

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free porn mom fucking Dark Helmut, how much weight do you put into references?

Not directed at me, but I once had a woman leave me three references. The first had a missing digit on the phone number, submitted online that way and in print form. The second was her sister-in-law. I didn't call the third. Don't do that?

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myron cope
Apr 21, 2009



I'd be down for more recruiter talk here or another thread. I'd also like to know how to find a good recruiter, although not immediately for me. I get a few calls/emails from recruiters (both with and without local phone numbers) but I never answer them in calls or emails. Most of them that mention the actual position are for help desk...which I already have. So of course I'm not interested in that. Is it bad to ignore them? It would seem pretty logical that the answer would be "no" to that one, but I don't know if I should be at least responding. I haven't contacted any of them first, they're "seeing my resume on Monster".

Also (for the thread in general), is it actually bad to leave a job in under a year? Or is this "conventional wisdom"? Because I haven't been at my current (first IT) job for a year yet, but it seems like I need to look for another one.


They're finally firing the dead weight on the help desk. I don't think she actually worked a full week since she started in...April, I guess it was. She either took vacation days off (and/)or just called off/left early. And when she did show up, she was terrible. Giving out wrong information, shipping things wrong (screwing up something as simple as FedEx? Repeatedly?) and generally just being terrible. I don't usually revel in people losing their job, but it's pretty exciting. I mean, she was making the same amount of money as me, which was pretty insulting. japanese game show naked Supposedly they're definitely doing it now. Hopefully they don't pull some last minute poo poo and not fire her yet again. The last straw was her not showing up yesterday, causing the alarm to go off (when people arrived later who don't have codes to disarm, which we do) which the police responded to, which is a fair bit of money I guess.

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Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009



It's bad to be a serial job hopper. Leaving one or two in under a year over the course of, say, a decade shouldn't be a red flag though. If it's super entry level and you've grown out of it, or it was just an awful fit, I don't think any reasonable company would hold that against you. It's when you've had 4 jobs in 3 years and there's no clear upward trajectory that managers get nervous.

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I'm in the Chicagoland area. I'm working with a recruiter right now and he has given me a couple OK leads, but nothing that is making me leave where I'm at right now. However, he is constantly asking what I'm making at my current job because "When I'm is asked, I need to be able to provide a number and justify why you're (me) worth" [current salary] + X amount more. It sounds like a bunch of crap to me, and I dodged that question and said "Well, I'm looking in the Y to Z range" which was fine for the first part of our conversation, but at the end he asked again and said "Well, the HR department at your next job is going to ask and find out, so it's in your best interest to be honest with me." I don't mind letting close friends know what I make, but I don't tell it to complete strangers that call me out of the blue for a job I applied for 3 months ago. I don't know, it just seemed really annoying that he wouldn't get off of what I make now, even after telling him that the same job in two different industries will pay completely different, it's not just about salary but the total compensation package, and my current salary has no impact on what I'm looking to make in my next role, all that good stuff.

Is this pretty common with recruiters, asking to know your current salary? Do I just have a lovely recruiter contacting me (my gut says yes)? Do any of you have good recruiters/companies that you know/have worked with in the Chicagoland area that you would recommend?

I actually know a recruiter that's based in the chicagoland area, she does generalized recruiting for the whole area, it does not answer your questions but she is a good friend of mine and will be very helpful provided she's got jobs you're looking for. PM me if you're interested.

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Mar 31, 2008

Perry'd.


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It's bad to be a serial job hopper. Leaving one or two in under a year over the course of, say, a decade shouldn't be a red flag though. If it's super entry level and you've grown out of it, or it was just an awful fit, I don't think any reasonable company would hold that against you. It's when you've had 4 jobs in 3 years and there's no clear upward trajectory that managers get nervous.

I've changed jobs twice in 3 years. In most cases the recruiter will just ask why I'm looking for a new position, so I explain that my current job filled the two positions I was holding while I was gone and wants me to do exchange upgrades at client sites, which isn't in line with where I'd like my career to go.

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Tab8715
May 20, 2006


I haven't had a job that's lasted for more than a year in three years and the one before that was only two.

All of my jumps, not sure if I'm picking the right words - were career advancing.

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Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006



Bleak Gremlin

I got a phone call from a recruiter wanting to set up an interview for a Sr. Virtualization Admin.

I don't think I'm quite qualified for that position but I guess that's the recruiter's job to make that decision.

I'm not holding my breath but it'd be hell of a neat way to get off of helpdesk.

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MC Fruit Stripe
Nov 26, 2002

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Not to break your stride, but just because the recruiter may like you doesn't mean you get the job - there's still the rounds of interviews. If you're on helpdesk now, just being realistic, you're not going to catapult to a senior admin role.

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Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009



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I've changed jobs twice in 3 years. In most cases the recruiter will just ask why I'm looking for a new position, so I explain that my current job filled the two positions I was holding while I was gone and wants me to do exchange upgrades at client sites, which isn't in line with where I'd like my career to go.

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I haven't had a job that's lasted for more than a year in three years and the one before that was only two.

All of my jumps, not sure if I'm picking the right words - were career advancing.

I don't think these are really at odds with what I was saying. If the nature of your job changes and it's no longer even remotely the right fit for you (CCNP level neteng -> doing Exchange upgrades, lol) then sure, no one will question why you bailed. Or if you've plateaued in your current org with no chance of advancing which it sounds like might have been the case for Tab. The challenge is conveying that in your resume and cover letter so you don't just look like a flake or a washout. Obviously it's not a hard and fast rule; if you're a truly outstanding candidate in other ways, the company will call you back no matter what. It's just one more way you can stack the deck in your favor during the job hunt.

Also I'm only talking about FTE's. I've never contracted but I assume it's way, way more common to have a laundry list of 6-12 months stints in that world.

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Forbes did an article that if you stay at a company longer than 2 years, you are losing money: stepfather and stepdaughter sex

The whole "serial job hopper" fallacy is terrible advice. There is literally no better way to spring up the salary ranks than changing jobs.

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Well there's a lot more to jobs other than salary, I sure as poo poo do not company hop every 2 years.

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Feel free to replace "no better way to increase salary" with "no better way to increase responsibility/title".

Staying in the same company for long periods of time is treading water for most people.

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Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006



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Not to break your stride, but just because the recruiter may like you doesn't mean you get the job - there's still the rounds of interviews. If you're on helpdesk now, just being realistic, you're not going to catapult to a senior admin role.

Yeah, I totally agree. I'm enjoying the ego boost but I don't realistically expect to get this job.

It's like a slightly more realistic lottery fantasy. "Sorry boss, I gotta put in my two weeks because I got offered a job that pays more than taylor cole sex scene YOUR boss makes. I'll try to close out all my tickets ASAP."

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psydude
Mar 31, 2008

Perry'd.


It probably depends largely on your market and where you are in your career. High-tempo spots like SF, Seattle, DFW, NOVA, NY, and RTP afford a lot of opportunities to move every 2-3 years, with a relative shortage of labor that means salaries will almost always increase. The same can't be said for the middle of Missouri. People who are more junior in their careers will also hop more, as they'll tend to quickly outgrow their current position. Managers tend to stick around longer due to the smaller number of management jobs and the fact that the scope of their responsibilities (especially at the operational and strategic level) usually lends itself to longer-term goals, so outgrowing the position takes longer.

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Jul 24, 2004

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From my perspective, references are pretty key. A good reference or two legitimizes a candidate and I will always include a quote from one if I can when I submit to a client. The most recent supervisor is typically the best reference, and it's always concerning when that is not one that's provided. In my eyes, references (so you can keep track of where they land) are one of the biggest reasons you should have a LinkedIn account.

So on your end, do your best not to burn bridges and even keep up with your old bosses. Have lunch with them or at least exchange emails from time to time if they are cool with that. If they were dicks, just keep it cordial.

With that being said, after 12 years of IT support I didn't have any references and I landed my recruiter job with the help of 2 of my best friends who I had worked alongside in the past and a guy that I worked for in a startup for a bit. Total BS references, but they all got called and it ended up working. So just have someone, anyone who will speak to your aptitude.

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Dark Helmut
Jul 24, 2004

All growns up


Re: the job hopping thing, both sides have good points and I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.

Every company is different and views this in a different way. Small/medium typically places way more weight on loyalty, whereas bigger corps typically don't give two shits, but that's a generalization. If your work history is all over the place, all short contracts, employment gaps, etc, the first question in a hiring manager's mind is always going to be "why didn't anyone hire this guy?"

I tell my candidates that in the IT world I would try and make sure I'm looking at least every 3-5 years. Unless you absolutely love your job and have great security, there is no substitute for working in diverse technical environments. It gives you perspective and obviously exposure to a wider variety of tools/tech. I would just avoid becoming that serial job hopper, because you will likely end up losing a great opportunity at some point because it's apparent to anyone reading your resume that you will leave for the next person to offer you $5K more.

We have a big financial institution in town here and whenever they do layoffs, I inevitably end up with people who have been there 12-15 years and are used to their cushy salary and benefits, but they have been totally silo'd so they aren't marketable and have unreasonable salary expectations. I usually have to wait those people out. They had a good run, sure, but I'd always rather be able to hit the ground running and have a marketable skill set.

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Re: the job hopping thing, both sides have good points and I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.

Every company is different and views this in a different way. Small/medium typically places way more weight on loyalty, whereas bigger corps typically don't give two shits, but that's a generalization. If your work history is all over the place, all short contracts, employment gaps, etc, the first question in a hiring manager's mind is always going to be "why didn't anyone hire this guy?"

I tell my candidates that in the IT world I would try and make sure I'm looking at least every 3-5 years. Unless you absolutely love your job and have great security, there is no substitute for working in diverse technical environments. It gives you perspective and obviously exposure to a wider variety of tools/tech. I would just avoid becoming that serial job hopper, because you will likely end up losing a great opportunity at some point because it's apparent to anyone reading your resume that you will leave for the next person to offer you $5K more.

We have a big financial institution in town here and whenever they do layoffs, I inevitably end up with people who have been there 12-15 years and are used to their cushy salary and benefits, but they have been totally silo'd so they aren't marketable and have unreasonable salary expectations. I usually have to wait those people out. They had a good run, sure, but I'd always rather be able to hit the ground running and have a marketable skill set.

This guy gets it.

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Mar 31, 2008

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We have a big financial institution in town here and whenever they do layoffs, I inevitably end up with people who have been there 12-15 years and are used to their cushy salary and benefits, but they have been totally silo'd so they aren't marketable and have unreasonable salary expectations. I usually have to wait those people out. They had a good run, sure, but I'd always rather be able to hit the ground running and have a marketable skill set.

Genworth, or Capital One?

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If you know the owner and he knows your name you might show a bit of loyalty and at least give them a chance to make a counter-offer. If you're working for OCP then who cares, gently caress them before they gently caress you.

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Jul 24, 2004

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skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


I swear these threads make me wonder if I work for some mythical perfect company or some poo poo. I'm celebrating my 10 year anniversary here soon. Started working in one of our call centers while finishing community college and have been promoted multiple times since then. In my current position of Sr. Systems Administrator I'm making a very nice base wage in line with the local market while enjoying such things 22 paid days off, 8 sick days, 90/10 PPO with 500 dollar deductible, paid training, cell phone, hot spot and annual performance bonus (that actually pays out). We're even well funded as a department and get nice equipment. I really don't have anything bad to say about the company at all and have no desire to leave.


Now if my environment wasn't so great, or I did not have the potential to move up I would leave, but you can enjoy a nice career with a company. It is possible. I wouldn't mind working here another 10 years to be honest. I can probably get a 'Lead Sys Admin' title in the next 2 to 3 years which would cap out my earning potential without going into management or consulting. I will say I make an effort to stay on top of technology. Don't be that guy who specializes in something and doesn't keep up with current technology trends. You want to keep a relevant skill set in case something happens to your job.

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Wrath of the Bitch King
May 11, 2005

Research confirms that black is a color like silver is a color, and that beyond black is clarity.


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I'm being put in charge of three things soon-- Verismic (power management software), Symantec Endpoint AV Server, and the university Firewall. I don't know a single thing about our firewall setup, but has anyone here used Verismic or SAV? Any thoughts/comments?

SAV is easy if its truly just the AV component and not NTP or Intrusion Prevention. Its also easy if you don't have any concerns about WAN traversal of updates/bandwidth constraints.

NTP/Intrusion Prevention can gently caress up a lot of things, especially if someone has the "wisdom" to install those components on a DC or DNS server. Controlling updates is painful since you can't actually schedule anything out without using a dedicated LUA server/workstation. For some reason you don't get those options if you run updates directly out of the SEPM server.

TLDR: AV is easy, other components aren't, updates can be a bitch if bandwidth is a concern. Logging is horrendous.

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Daylen Drazzi
Mar 10, 2007

Why do I root for Notre Dame? Because I like pain, and disappointment, and anguish. Notre Dame Football has destroyed more dreams than the Irish Potato Famine, and that is the kind of suffering I can get behind.

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I swear these threads make me wonder if I work for some mythical perfect company or some poo poo. I'm celebrating my 10 year anniversary here soon. Started working in one of our call centers while finishing community college and have been promoted multiple times since then. In my current position of Sr. Systems Administrator I'm making a very nice base wage in line with the local market while enjoying such things 22 paid days off, 8 sick days, 90/10 PPO with 500 dollar deductible, paid training, cell phone, hot spot and annual performance bonus (that actually pays out). We're even well funded as a department and get nice equipment. I really don't have anything bad to say about the company at all and have no desire to leave.

You are living the loving dream of employment then and should be offering up prayers of thanks to the IT gods.

I thought I had a pretty good gig as well, even though it was a contract position. I mean, once you get that mythical DoD security clearance then you are golden, but for whatever reason it was business as usual and gently caress the peons for a few measly bucks. It was a good thing that I managed to transfer to the primary contractor and get picked up for the Messaging team, otherwise I'd be out on the street right now.

And as proof that I had good timing I was sadly shaking my head last week and today because of what my former team is being forced into. It used to be that we did a lot of things in vCenter to justify our existence, and we were fine with that since it was good OTJ experience. When the cuts came they basically took all of that away and used it as justification for why they were going to pay us less than the going rate for call center reps in the private sector. Last week the server farm guys were patching servers, despite this being bullet one of the "why we are going to pay you less" excuse train, and today they were building new VMs in vCenter, which was actually bullet point two of the excuses.

So basically less than three months after they completely upset the apple cart things are back exactly the way they were, only they are paying about $150k less in wages for the same work. Thank god I got out of there when I did - it no longer affects me, but it pisses me off on behalf of the guys now on the team.

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YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."


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I swear these threads make me wonder if I work for some mythical perfect company or some poo poo. I'm celebrating my 10 year anniversary here soon. Started working in one of our call centers while finishing community college and have been promoted multiple times since then. In my current position of Sr. Systems Administrator I'm making a very nice base wage in line with the local market while enjoying such things 22 paid days off, 8 sick days, 90/10 PPO with 500 dollar deductible, paid training, cell phone, hot spot and annual performance bonus (that actually pays out). We're even well funded as a department and get nice equipment. I really don't have anything bad to say about the company at all and have no desire to leave.


Now if my environment wasn't so great, or I did not have the potential to move up I would leave, but you can enjoy a nice career with a company. It is possible. I wouldn't mind working here another 10 years to be honest. I can probably get a 'Lead Sys Admin' title in the next 2 to 3 years which would cap out my earning potential without going into management or consulting. I will say I make an effort to stay on top of technology. Don't be that guy who specializes in something and doesn't keep up with current technology trends. You want to keep a relevant skill set in case something happens to your job.

Part of it is that this thread seems weighted heavily in favor of people who are still relatively early in their career. It gets easier to find the good jobs as you build a resume and your skills are more in demand, forcing companies to compete for you. Though over the past ten years I've had four different IT jobs and none of them were anywhere near as bad as many described here.

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