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Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009



So my recent binging of Miami Vice and playing of GTA V has me idly musing about a 1980s-Modern hack of BitD. Most of it transposes over just fine, but the playbooks would need a makeover (with whisper basically being replaced entirely) and some skills renamed and replaced (probably need a driver/vehicle skill for one). I might do some actual work on it, but I think I'll wait until the next update to do that (hopefully we'll also get The Leech and the Spider).

I lean more towards 1980s as a setting because A) The 80s were awesome, aesthetically B) Cocaine! Hawkers are a perect playbook for the period C) Avoids most of that annoying modern day computers and all the complicated and crime-hindering bullshit associated with them.

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Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

To be fair, it would be the work of a lazy afternoon to repaint the Whisper as "the Hacker" and just treat computer stuff as essentially magic, which is how a lot of modern heist stuff involving computers does anyway.

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Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009



Yeah maybe. At least BitD probably avoids the problems of Hackers in Shadowrun where everything grinds to a halt while the hacker plays his minigame. In BitD the hacker just takes a normal overcome action (if he's just hacking poo poo via wifi while sitting in a bathroom or something) or a group action (say if he has the rest of the group interacting manually with something so he can mess with it). That was the worst part about Shadowrun (besides the clunker rules).

Man, I'm looking forward to seeing the cyberpunk hack.

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A Fancy 400 lbs
Jul 23, 2008


Have there been any updates on when the updated quick start is coming. I might just give up on waiting and start my group with the current one if it's not soon, they're getting impatient.

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DemonMage
Oct 14, 2004


What happens in the course of duty is up to you...


About 5-7 days from now, roughly.

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QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.


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Yeah maybe. At least BitD probably avoids the problems of Hackers in Shadowrun where everything grinds to a halt while the hacker plays his minigame. In BitD the hacker just takes a normal overcome action (if he's just hacking poo poo via wifi while sitting in a bathroom or something) or a group action (say if he has the rest of the group interacting manually with something so he can mess with it). That was the worst part about Shadowrun (besides the clunker rules).

Man, I'm looking forward to seeing the cyberpunk hack.

Hacking in Shadowrun really doesn't work like that in 5E; it's more like sitting there hacking over wifi. But that's neither here nor there.

I started reading the quickstart rules for this last night and I think I love this system. The effect roll seems neat, but if they can just roll it into the action roll and preserve the clock mechanism I'll still be happy. I think "effect as dodge" should still stick around, though.

Are there any hacks that have been posted yet? I know the Kickstarter mentioned a few, but I really want to see one. I want to write a Shadowrun hack as soon as possible, but I only have a vague idea of what other crews / books need to look like.
EDIT: I totally backed the kickstarter if I can find some of this stuff that way.

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Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

So far as I'm aware the clock system is remaining firmly in place, though I have to admit I don't really see anything TOO exciting in hitpoints by any other name, but there you go. The only thing I'm aware of him provisionally changing is consolidating the two rolls into one along with cutting out some of the more nebulous Effect stats.

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Jimbozig
Sep 30, 2003

I like sharing and ice cream and animals.


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So far as I'm aware the clock system is remaining firmly in place, though I have to admit I don't really see anything TOO exciting in hitpoints by any other name, but there you go.

There you go peeling off the fresh coat of paint. Taking old things and making them feel new again is part of the job of the designer.

Less glib, and assuming that John preserved what was best about the clocks in AW, what the clocks do that HP also does is explicitly indicate how much is left before completion, but the clocks also dictate the current circumstances. Descriptive and prescriptive, and all that. The world will behave differently when a clock is at 5/6 than when it is at 2/6. That isn't generally true of games with HP, although it is found sometimes (4e's bloodied condition is a very basic example).

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QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.


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There you go peeling off the fresh coat of paint. Taking old things and making them feel new again is part of the job of the designer.

Less glib, and assuming that John preserved what was best about the clocks in AW, what the clocks do that HP also does is explicitly indicate how much is left before completion, but the clocks also dictate the current circumstances. Descriptive and prescriptive, and all that. The world will behave differently when a clock is at 5/6 than when it is at 2/6. That isn't generally true of games with HP, although it is found sometimes (4e's bloodied condition is a very basic example).

This is pretty much my sentiment; stating that you've 5/6ths won a fight is a lot better than "these two guys are still up with 6 HP left, and the rest are dead". Moreover, quantifying non-combat tasks in this way is invaluable. I've been running a lot of Shadowrun lately, and a concrete mechanism for "subverted the security system" is a lot better than "well, roll Sneaking. Okay, that beats this guard's perception, but there are two others in the hallway. Deal with that...", rinse and repeat for every player trying to sneak in. Sure, at some point it's just taking HP off of the monster called "Sneaking In", but the veneer over it that controls the narrative as it gets filled in seems the worthier part of the track.

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Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

Oh it's lady gaga porn pictures handy to be sure but I don't feel like it's anything bisexual porn for free amazing, and it certainly doesn't make me wistful that he's thinking about cutting out the specific roll that's all about seeing how many ticks you put on the clock because unlike, say, 4E's "bloodied" condition there's not even anything basic and binary that hinges off of a clock being 5/6ths ticked as opposed to 1/6th, it's all pretty much in that nebulous "up to the GM" realm to determine what that 5/6th clock is porn addiction real means in game terms. And just like with hitpoints something that's 5/6ths full on the clock is more or less just as unresolved/as much of a threat/etc. as it was when it was at "full health" so to speak.

It's funny too because the game college girls pussy pics has a whole resolution system that's all about various levels and degrees of success contextually measured against various positions of difficulty which is really pretty neat and interesting and more than a simple binary pass/fail...but that's just one part of things and after using sylvester stallone porn pics that you then move on to a separate resolution system that's much less interesting and dynamic which seems to serve the sole purpose of going "wow, you totally aced that roll to do a thing...avril lavigne nude video buuuut you rolled like poo poo on the clock so someone needs to try again."

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gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

I think the whole Controlled/Risky/Desperate principle could be useful in other games to quickly convey and contextualize the stakes of an ability check, although it does need to be coupled with watch desperado sex scene "you can never roll the same action twice". Even if you were playing a d20 game, laying out how badly a failed check could go sideways or and allowing a chance to make up for the failure at a higher potential cost could make "fail-forwards"-type outcomes seem less arbitrary.

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Jimbozig
Sep 30, 2003

I like sharing and ice cream and animals.


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It's funny too because the game mature nude free video has a whole resolution system that's all about various levels and degrees of success contextually measured against various positions of difficulty which is really pretty neat and interesting and more than a simple binary pass/fail...but that's just one part of things and after using tattoo of naked woman that you then move on to a separate resolution system that's much less interesting and dynamic which seems to serve the sole purpose of going "wow, you totally aced that roll to do a thing...kate beckinsale underworld nude buuuut you rolled like poo poo on the clock so someone needs to try again."
I completely agree with this. The clocks NEED to have an effect at 5/6 (and 3/6, etc.) and the players need to know what that effect is (preferably in advance), or else what you say here is absolutely true and is a problem.

When you make a clock, you should tell your players what each stage represents and, without giving away any surprises, what they can expect when they get there.


Edit: either that or don't even tell the players about the clock at all. Use the clock to guide your own descriptions and make sure that when the players succeed, you can describe to them what their success got them if it didn't get them the whole shebang. This would be if you're following the 'never talk about mechanics' guideline from AW (I forget what pithy phrase Vincent used for that principle).

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QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.


I did math for this game, looking at expected outcomes:

Here is the expected results for your dice pool size:
pre:
   1 - 3    4 - 5     6    CRIT
1  50.00    33.34   16.67   --
2  25.00    44.44   30.56  02.78 
3  12.50    45.37   42.13  07.41
4   6.26    41.97   51.77  13.19
5   3.12    37.06   59.81  19.62
6   1.57    31.93   66.51  26.32
Here are the expected second-highest die in each case (assuming we're using this mechanism instead of a separate Effect roll):
pre:
    1     2     3     4    5      6
2 30.55 25.00 19.44 13.88  8.33  2.77
3  7.40 18.51 24.07 24.07 18.51  7.40
4  1.62  9.49 20.13 28.00 27.54 13.19
5  0.33  4.19 14.22 27.34 34.28 19.62
6  0.06  1.71  9.15 24.17 38.56 26.32
Perhaps a more useful table, however, is the "at least" computation: you're going to get at least this value given that dice pool:
pre:
   1    2     3     4    5      6
2 100 69.44 44.44 25.00 11.11  2.77
3 100 92.59 74.07 49.99 25.92  7.40
4 100 98.37 88.88 68.74 40.74 13.19
5 100 99.66 95.47 81.25 53.90 19.62
6 100 99.93 98.21 89.06 64.88 26.32
Also, on the topic of clocks:

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Oh it's old girls sex videos handy to be sure but I don't feel like it's anything black teen in thongs amazing, and it certainly doesn't make me wistful that he's thinking about cutting out the specific roll that's all about seeing how many ticks you put on the clock because unlike, say, 4E's "bloodied" condition there's not even anything basic and binary that hinges off of a clock being 5/6ths ticked as opposed to 1/6th, it's all pretty much in that nebulous "up to the GM" realm to determine what that 5/6th clock eva mendes naked gagreport means in game terms. And just like with hitpoints something that's 5/6ths full on the clock is more or less just as unresolved/as much of a threat/etc. as it was when it was at "full health" so to speak.

This is a good point, and it reveals the crux of the problem: basically, you've told the players that they nude women anal sex must completely resolve the guard situation before they can move forward. They may do it by subterfuge or attack or evasion, but they sexy little girl nude must deal with it. And that means the entire problem, not "knock out five of the six guards and let the other wander around because who cares". That's problematic, and the only recourse the system offers is "you can deal with the sixth guard any way you can sell your GM, though!" That could easily lead to situations that feel unsatisfying if the narrative does not correctly handle it.

Moreover, I'll agree that the "resilient danger" is problematic in the abstract; the system almost completely fails to address how brutally wounding someone in a swordfight makes them less of a threat until they're completely subdued. To be fair, however, Dungeon World did basically the same thing with monster health and damage (and with damage dice as "effect dice" for the player side), and it never felt "bad" to me. Based on the gameplay I've seen of Blades and my experience with Dungeon World, I'm not certain this is actually going to be a problem "at runtime".

If you really wanted to patch it, I think an easy way to resolve this is to reduce potential stress for resistance rolls based on the "amount" of the threat left, giving PCs what basically amounts to armor as they fill in the clock. I'm not sure if this would "feel good" as a mechanic, however.

Alternatively, you could use it to reduce the severity of the situation (Desperate -> Risky -> Controlled) first; messing up moves them the other way, so that seems really fair.

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I completely agree with this. The clocks NEED to have an effect at 5/6 (and 3/6, etc.) and the players need to know what that effect is (preferably in advance), or else what you say here is absolutely true and is a problem.

I would legitimately love for you to give me an example of a six-circle guard watch demonstrating what happens at each slice. I have a few ideas, but I'm super-curious to see what you have in mind.

The clock has the potential to free psp porn dowloads majorly impact how your players will approach the situation, tied to the effect result. It determines if they'll need backup, or take the devil's bargain, or anything of the sort. The math dress for more sex works out that way. The more of the clock you need to fill, the more likely you are to do something crazy or daring or absurd or bad to get it done. A Risky Situation on a 0/6 clock will likely induce a Devil's Bargain or some Backup, whereas a Risky Situation on a 5/6 clock necessitates neither if you're halfway-competent at your task. At each point, the status of the clock dictates nude tara reid pics the size of the risk necessary to completely solve the problem. Kai Tave pointed out that it is, unfortunately, not particularly tied mechanically to naked camera phone pics the danger you might endure from a resistance roll, but it does help guide what sort of dice you want to roll to deal with it.

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Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


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This is a good point, and it reveals the crux of the problem: basically, you've told the players that they young black woman porn must completely resolve the guard situation before they can move forward. They may do it by subterfuge or attack or evasion, but they naked fat lady pics must deal with it. And that means the entire problem, not "knock out five of the six guards and let the other wander around because who cares". That's problematic, and the only recourse the system offers is "you can deal with the sixth guard any way you can sell your GM, though!" That could easily lead to situations that feel unsatisfying if the narrative does not correctly handle it.

The issue here isn't with the clock, though, it's with you quantifying "one segment of the clock = one guard" rather than having no correlation between the two. The actual worth of "one clock segment" is deliberately nebulous and should never be defined, because then you eat in to the narrative. Killing ten guards with a bomb can be worth one segment, just like stealthily sneaking past one guard can be worth five; that's entirely left up to the players to decide in play.

I do agree it would be nice to have mechanics for what happens when the clock is half full/75% full, even if it's just in the form of getting a slight bonus to your next roll. The problem isn't narrative at all, it's purely mechanical (having to try again because you aced the Action roll but had a poo poo Effect, whether it's a roll or a second die).

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gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

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"wow, you totally aced that roll to do a thing...big tit xxx porn buuuut you rolled like poo poo on the clock so someone needs to try again."

I've definitely noticed this, and have handwaved it away more than a couple of times by declaring the action a success without asking for/needing an effect roll.

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Flavivirus
Dec 13, 2011

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Maybe it could be something like the consequences for leaving the clock unfinished? Like, if you abandon it and it's <50% full this bad thing happens, 50-75% somewhat mollifies it and past 75% you'll have achieved almost everything you wanted to but leaving it unfinished could bite you in the rear end later? Haven't played the game yet so not sure if this makes complete sense.

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Jimbozig
Sep 30, 2003

I like sharing and ice cream and animals.


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I would legitimately love for you to give me an example of a six-circle guard watch demonstrating what happens at each slice. I have a few ideas, but I'm super-curious to see what you have in mind.
Uh, here's a first shot at it. I'm not sure if this works completely in the context of Blades because I still haven't done a thorough read-through.

1/6 - you can breach the compound perimeter without being detected
2/6 you can get into the main building undetected
3/6 You can get into the secure area undetected
4/6 You have time to attempt your main task undetected
5/6 You can get back out undetected
6/6 The guards won't be able to immediately trace it back to you once they find out what you did

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Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

You pick up the nugget of URANIUM and...

Oh that was so stupid. Why would you do that?


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Sep 30, 2003

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Ugh. 8 for locks? That sounds like classic bad d&d. "Oh, good job, you unlocked the door! Now roll again for the next door! Oh, too bad. Try again! Hey, great lockpicking! Only a couple more doors left! Keep on rolling..."

Am I missing something?

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Fenarisk
Oct 26, 2005



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Ugh. 8 for locks? That sounds like classic bad d&d. "Oh, good job, you unlocked the door! Now roll again for the next door! Oh, too bad. Try again! Hey, great lockpicking! Only a couple more doors left! Keep on rolling..."

Am I missing something?

Yes, cool narrative methods. Off the top of my head when trying to defeat locked areas:

1) pick lock
2) sweet talk the janitor to open them for you
3) blackmail the guard to "accidentally" leave a door ajar or his wife finds out about his habits
4) create a commotion/small fire so people evacuate through the door

Etc etc etc to defeat the clock.

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Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


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Ugh. 8 for locks? That sounds like classic bad d&d. "Oh, good job, you unlocked the door! Now roll again for the next door! Oh, too bad. Try again! Hey, great lockpicking! Only a couple more doors left! Keep on rolling..."

Am I missing something?

Yes. Why are you representing an abstract representation of "in this heists, locks are a serious problem" as "the heroes unlock a bunch of locked doors one after another?"

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QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.


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Ugh. 8 for locks? That sounds like classic bad d&d. "Oh, good job, you unlocked the door! Now roll again for the next door! Oh, too bad. Try again! Hey, great lockpicking! Only a couple more doors left! Keep on rolling..."

Am I missing something?

As Curdistan pointed out (and I agree with, even if it didn't come across in my previous post), quantifying the clock as "8 locks" is not accurate. The important thing is that the clock online cartoon porn games tracks progress for an black homegrown sex videos entire scene; the entire break-in process is going to have a few locks to contend with, and the 8 ticks there represent them all together. The clocks aren't isn't something so fine-grained as to need discrete meaning at each spot, because players will resolve large pieces of the clock with single actions. "3 segments" in the lock case might represent one lock in the above diagram because it was an amazing lock and it fit the narrative well.

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I do agree it would be nice to have mechanics for what happens when the clock is half full/75% full, even if it's just in the form of getting a slight bonus to your next roll. The problem isn't narrative at all, it's purely mechanical (having to try again because you aced the Action roll but had a poo poo Effect, whether it's a roll or a second die).

My point above was that you already get a "slight bonus", implicitly, through the mechanics. The segments of the clock left indicate how much more you short blond hair porn need to risk to accomplish your task. You might accept a Devil's Bargain at 0/6, but it would be foolish to accept it at 5/6. The same applies to the other moves: Assist, Lead a Group Action, and Flashbacks all give you extra bonuses specifically for stress, and these are bonuses you probably wouldn't take if you're trying to deal with 1-2 clock segments instead of 5-6. The bonus is that you have to risk less or spend less to overcome the difficulty you've already made progress on. The other thing that would be easy to hack in is to say you take +1d forward if you have the clock over 50% filled in, but I don't think it's a necessary addition to the system.

Seriously though, I agree that the effect roll should probably go. Watching the gameplay samples, the players do this weird thing where they roll, roll well, and go "Okay, so this is what happ--" only to be interrupted by the GM to say, "No, you have to roll your effect to see how well your amazing roll actually worked." It feels artificial in the worst way, and I think second-highest die approach is a good alternative both mathematically and mechanically.

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gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

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Ugh. 8 for locks? That sounds like classic bad d&d. "Oh, good job, you unlocked the door! Now roll again for the next door! Oh, too bad. Try again! Hey, great lockpicking! Only a couple more doors left! Keep on rolling..."

Am I missing something?

You can use any Action roll you can BS justify as disabling or bypassing the lock, and Effect rolls can fill in more than one block of the clock at a time. You could be done in as few as two Action/Effect combos, and the Action never has to be lockpicking per se.

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Jimbozig
Sep 30, 2003

I like sharing and ice cream and animals.


No, I get that you can take out multiple lock segments at once, but if you don't know as the DM whether a successful roll will be good enough, it makes the narration really difficult.

It's either "okay, this is the final vault door... Oh, you succeeded but had poo poo for effect. Well, I guess there is another door behind this one lol."

Or it's "okay, you come to another locked door into the secure zone. The final vault lies beyond... Woah! 5 effect! Okay, well I guess they left the vault door beyond unlocked.

It is really tough to set things up without knowing the stakes of the roll before you roll. It is a core principle of AW (not to mention many other games) that you know when a player picks up the dice what the stakes are. Having 8hp for locks makes that tough if they are trying to pick a lock because you don't know until they roll whether they are picking the only lock or just one of many.

The awkwardness comes from the fact that even if you know what the player is trying to do and assume he will succeed, you don't know what that success will mean. A success with 1 effect when you needed 2 is essentially a failure although it will be narrated as a success.


Edit: Now I'm thinking more and I'm not so sure about what I just wrote. I'm going to keep thinking about it. But feel free to tell me where I'm wrong, because it feels like I just need to look at this from the right angle and it'll all make sense.

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Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


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It's either "okay, this is the final vault door... Oh, you succeeded but had poo poo for effect. Well, I guess there is another door behind this one lol."

Or it's "okay, you come to another locked door into the secure zone. The final vault lies beyond... Woah! 5 effect! Okay, well I guess they left the vault door beyond unlocked.

If you've got a multi-segment clock for the final vault door, why does one roll equal one go at picking the door's lock or safety mechanism?

If you roll poo poo for effect, you describe how the player disables the first step of the vault door's multi-step lock. If you roll well on effect and ace it, messenger bags for teen you still describe the door as having multiple security measures but you describe how you circumvent more than one of them.

It's the teen jerk off stories opposite of how AW does it; you don't know the stakes of one player's specific roll until janine habeck nude video after the effect has been determined, where you describe whatever narrative details you need to describe to make the narrative fit the scope of the effect roll.

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Apr 21, 2010

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One of the FATE Worlds books has a supplement in it about caper stories, called CrimeWorld.

CrimeWorld divides criminal jobs in cons, convincing someone to give you something, and heists, getting something from someone without they knowing. It further separates jobs in four stages that could synergize very well with BitD's countdown clocks.

For the con, you have to Hook the Mark, Stall to the Sting, Blow, and Get Paid.

For the heist, you have Break in the House, Crack the Box, Dodge the Heat, and Get Paid.

You put a countdown clock in each of these stages and you've got yourself a score. So you have a clock for Breaking in the House that encompasses the locks and wards of the mansion, as well as the perimeter guards. This scheme also brings to light some things BitD itself doesn't focus too much on, like the "get the hell away from there" step of many scores and all the stuff a group of criminals have to do before turning the immediate fruits of their work into actual Coin they can use.

I highly recommend CrimeWorld, by the way. It has very to-the-point, genre-aware discussions of what makes a good caper story and how to turn that into a gaming session.

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Jimbozig
Sep 30, 2003

I like sharing and ice cream and animals.


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If you've got a multi-segment clock for the final vault door, why does one roll equal one go at picking the door's lock or safety mechanism?

Is that what the image means? Sorry, I thought that the "fine locks" were distributed around the heist, not just on one door.

Having them distributed feels funny because you might pick a lock with a roll or if you do well for effect you might pick all the locks with that same roll. Which is unintuitive, to say the least.

Having it be HP for one very complex locked vault actually makes perfect sense to me. Is that the thing I was missing?

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Doodmons
Jan 17, 2009


Those diagrams are really helping me grok Blades. Am I right in thinking that the players don't have to complete a clock all at once and can move between them?

Example:

Players breaking into a mansion. It has a 4-segment "locks", a 4 segment "guards" and a 4-segment "traps"

The players roll sneaking to get past the outer guards and get 2 segments. They get to the house itself but they'll still have to contend with guards inside. The door's locked and trapped. They roll 2 segments on the lock but boss the roll for traps and get all 4 segments. There'll be more locks in between them and the score, but they've dealt with the traps completely. Inside the house, they Murder some guards, pass the roll but only get 1 segment. There's still gonna be more guards. They get to the vault itself, where there's a guard and the entrance to the vault itself is locked. They Distract the guard, getting one segment and dealing with that threat, and lockpick the vault - but only getting 1 segment, meaning there's still one left. They nab the treasure, ghost past the guards and traps that aren't a threat anymore, but have to bust a locked window open with mayhem to fill in the last segment on the locks before they leave.

This seems more natural to me than "gotta fill in all the lock segments before you can deal with the traps." It's more of a "there's gonna be more trouble from this threat during the heist" clock than the progress timer on the particular door you're lockpicking or the HP of the guard you're trying to murder. Like, straight up, a particularly badass guard, a custom lock or a nasty magical trap could warrant a clock all by themselves and then the players know poo poo's getting edward from twilight naked real. Particularly if they get a partial success on Murdering the guard and the Effect is "he stabs you the gently caress to death and you die for reals" rather than a more lukewarm "he bonks you on the head with his truncheon and you're woozy"

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Is that what the image means? Sorry, I thought that the "fine locks" were distributed around the heist, not just on one door.

Having them distributed feels funny because you might pick a lock with a roll or if you do well for effect you might pick all the locks with that same roll. Which is unintuitive, to say the least.

Having it be HP for one very complex locked vault actually makes perfect sense to me. Is that the thing I was missing?

What you're missing is a lot more basic than that.

The clock doesn't represent some finite defined set of locks, but porn girls with glasses how much the presence of superior locks increases the difficulty of the heist. If one amazing roll clears all the segments of the that clock, it means they've managed to remove them as a meaningful obstacle, not that all the locks are magically opened or disappear. How this works is a narrative question that I can think of many different answers to, depending on what approach the team took.

Even if it's limited to mechanical picking of the locks, I can think of several. Maybe while picking the first lock the lurk has an epiphany and uncovers an inherent weakness in the design used throughout the building, making it a trivial exercise to bypass the others. Perhaps only the locks on the outer doors are genuine, and the interior ones turn out to be inferior copies. Maybe once they're inside, the locks they need to bypass are ones they can work on without fear of discovery - the risk is in moving between them, which is part of the guards clock.

I'm a little shocked to be honest, because this is such a baseline concept of the entire system. You don't figure the details of how many locks or whatever beforehand. You sort it out during the heist. That's why there are Flashbacks and all the other options to backfill detail. Of course there are some salient features figured out ahead of time, but a big conceit of the system is to do it heist film style, like say Ocean's Eleven, with twists and turns and reveals of the real plan along the way.

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gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

The clocks don't have to represent anything more specific than "there are locks in this place", until you actually define what it means in the context of the result of an Action+Effect roll.

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Those diagrams are really helping me grok Blades. Am I right in thinking that the players don't have to complete a clock all at once and can move between them?
Yes, you don't have to tackle the obstacles in order.

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Sep 30, 2003

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Those diagrams are really helping me grok Blades. Am I right in thinking that the players don't have to complete a clock all at once and can move between them?

Example:

Players breaking into a mansion. It has a 4-segment "locks", a 4 segment "guards" and a 4-segment "traps"

The players roll sneaking to get past the outer guards and get 2 segments. They get to the house itself but they'll still have to contend with guards inside. The door's locked and trapped. They roll 2 segments on the lock but boss the roll for traps and get all 4 segments. There'll be more locks in between them and the score, but they've dealt with the traps completely. Inside the house, they Murder some guards, pass the roll but only get 1 segment. There's still gonna be more guards. They get to the vault itself, where there's a guard and the entrance to the vault itself is locked. They Distract the guard, getting one segment and dealing with that threat, and lockpick the vault - but only getting 1 segment, meaning there's still one left. They nab the treasure, ghost past the guards and traps that aren't a threat anymore, but have to bust a locked window open with mayhem to fill in the last segment on the locks before they leave.

This seems more natural to me than "gotta fill in all the lock segments before you can deal with the traps." It's more of a "there's gonna be more trouble from this threat during the heist" clock than the progress timer on the particular door you're lockpicking or the HP of the guard you're trying to murder. Like, straight up, a particularly badass guard, a custom lock or a nasty magical trap could warrant a clock all by themselves and then the players know poo poo's getting anal porn free movie real. Particularly if they get a partial success on Murdering the guard and the Effect is "he stabs you the gently caress to death and you die for reals" rather than a more lukewarm "he bonks you on the head with his truncheon and you're woozy"
Thank you! This is totally clear. naked girl with girl "there's gonna be more trouble from this threat during the heist" I initially skipped your post and read Gorbash's explanation and hated it (no offense, Gorbash. I just still didn't get it) and typed out a post basically trashing this clock and how it violates MC's principles from Apocalypse World and so on. Then I went back and read your post and deleted everything.

The clock represents the fact that DM is permitted to put that SORT of obstacle in your way in the process of the heist. "How much the presence of superior locks increases the difficulty of the heist" isn't wrong, but it doesn't make clear how it is used in practice. The clock is not how many locks are left, and it's not whether you just proved you are skilled enough to handle all future locks by your prowess with this one. It's not any of the contradictory crap that was in my muddled brain. It's simply a thing telling the DM that they can throw another lock or guard in later.

So, I get it now. I'm 100% a subscriber to the Doodmons interpretation. free fisting porn tube "there's gonna be more trouble from this threat during the heist"

But now I look back at the diagram and this interpretation doesn't really work the same for "sewers entrance". That is something that needs to be overcome as a unit before the rest of the heist can occur. But that's not problematic in my mind. That sort of self-contained area clock was always fairly clear and it was the ones that were dispersed throughout the heist that were giving me trouble.

So am I right in saying that there are really two different sorts of clocks? One type of clock basically represents a scene and you need to overcome it to complete the scene. This would be something like "sewers entrance" or "hidden laboratory". And then there are clocks that represent recurring dangers that the DM can throw in front of you at any point until you clear the clock. This would be "guards" and "fine locks" and "electroplasma traps".

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GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

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So am I right in saying that there are really two different sorts of clocks? One type of clock basically represents a scene and you need to overcome it to complete the scene. This would be something like "sewers entrance" or "hidden laboratory". And then there are clocks that represent recurring dangers that the DM can throw in front of you at any point until you clear the clock. This would be "guards" and "fine locks" and "electroplasma traps".

Yep! Also, clocks can be used to measure a countdown like in Apocalypse World (e.g. "The Bluecoats arrive when this clock fills in; every time one of you takes an action, I'll mark off a tick.") or long-term progress toward a goal ("The Red Sashes are trying to wipe out the Lampblacks; barring PC interference, when this clock fills in they'll accomplish that goal.") You also don't have to measure every obstacle with a clock (or, technically I guess, to have one-segment clocks) if the obstacle isn't interesting as a long-term problem.

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Saman
Oct 23, 2008

Next, you'll say...
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Have we gotten a post-kickstarter option to put in money for access to the quickstart and a pdf when it comes out yet? I just barely missed the end of funding.

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Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


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Have we gotten a post-kickstarter option to put in money for access to the quickstart and a pdf when it comes out yet? I just barely missed the end of funding.

I don't think so but you could always email John Harper and see if you can PayPal him some money and swing a deal that way.

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Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


Looks like that QS update will be a while longer:

quote:

Speaking of updates to the Quick Start, I'm planning to release them less frequently than I originally planned. I don't want to bombard you with a series of tiny updates with small changes. It can be annoying to keep track of things when they're dribbled out like that. Instead, I plan to wait to release an update when I have a significant new version of the PDF ready (with a changelog showing what's new), with enough time between updates so you can take the changes on board and understand them as I go. So expect maybe 2 or 3 updates between now and November.

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Fenarisk
Oct 26, 2005



After seeing Last Knights, I'm actually somewhat interested in the "good guys" hack that was one of the kickstarter goals. It's actually a pretty good movie and rife with some ideas for a long term/larger scale plan with a couple different clocks leading up to a main goal.

I've also realized RPG's have ruined me when I see a movie and think this.

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Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009



Wait, who are the "Good guys" in the Duskwall setting? Not the bluecoats, that is for sure.

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Mar 8, 2013

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After seeing Last Knights, I'm actually somewhat interested in the "good guys" hack that was one of the kickstarter goals. It's actually a pretty good movie and rife with some ideas for a long term/larger scale plan with a couple different clocks leading up to a main goal.

I've also realized RPG's have ruined me when I see a movie and think this.

You saw Last Knights instead of Mad Max?

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Feb 25, 2011

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Wait, who are the "Good guys" in the Duskwall setting? Not the bluecoats, that is for sure.

The empress, potentially Corvo and a few of the revolutionaries.

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gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

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Wait, who are the "Good guys" in the Duskwall setting? Not the bluecoats, that is for sure.

The protagonists as grimdark, industrial fantasy Robin Hood types.

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