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I feel like there is a difference between the story addressing just how much of Daredevil's crusade is altruistic and someone pointing out that Batman would make his fictional world better if he wasn't Batman. Character criticism and an examination of their flaws is great in-universe. I just don't like when real world logic is applied to them from outside the confines of the story. I dunno if I'm articulating it how I want to. It's like I don't mind if Alfred is like "Why don't you just stop being Batman and use the money to fund GCPD" but I absolutely did not enjoy Rises being a story about how lovely Batman is and why it doesn't work.

I live in Oakland, there's currently a massive police scandal where up to 12 police officers might have traded information about upcoming vice stings for sex with a single prostitute, who was underage. I can see why Bruce might not think the GCPD would be the best investment for improving Gotham.

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There's a difference to me in using in-universe logic to criticize characters and plot beats and using real world logic to criticize characters and plot beats. The former tells a story, the latter is normally a waste of time. "Batman wouldn't work in real life" isn't really a hot take to me.

If it isn't a hot take to you that's fine but it is, in fact, a meaningful take. It can be a metatextual criticism of fiction (as Grant Morrison likes to do) or a more realistic criticism of vigilante violence and torture or an author's critique of escapist fantasy and what the escapist fantasy is teaching people. None of those things don't have value.

A story about Superman which is optimistic, hopeful and forthright is just as valid as a story whose central thesis is "Superman is a fun power fantasy but we can't rely on power fantasy to solve problems." Both are taking advantage of the character's innate idea to say something, it just depends on what they're saying.

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Has there ever been a Batman comic where Bruce is confronted by his parents who see his life as Batman and ask him why he used his life spending their money and using their legacy as a vigilante?

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Thomas Wayne has been Batman at least three times I can think of, so he'd probably be fine with Bruce's life choices.

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If it isn't a hot take to you that's fine but it is, in fact, a meaningful take.

No, no it isn't. The central idea behind comic books is that these things would not work in our world. Analyzing exactly why may be meaningful to you, but it's just not to me. There's nothing I get from examining why you can't use laser beams to solve your problems. There's nothing insightful to me about a Batman story that takes a more realistic view of vigilante violence. It's a Batman story. And honestly, none of those stories can ever really do much with that question, because there still has to be Batman comics. To me personally, there is nothing to be gained from analyzing the realism (or lack thereof) in a superhero story and then using that to critique the character. Batman lives in a world where wearing a gaudy suit and punching the right guys makes the universe better. If you start poking holes in that because it would never work in our world, the entire universe collapses around it. It's what superhero comics is built on. And sure you can then say "Wow, dressing up like a bat would totally be dumb!" but I can't follow you to "That is a meaningful take on Batman".

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A story about Superman which is optimistic, hopeful and forthright is just as valid as a story whose central thesis is "Superman is a fun power fantasy but we can't rely on power fantasy to solve problems." Both are taking advantage of the character's innate idea to say something, it just depends on what they're saying.

Like I look at this and I don't see the interesting story in the latter. Maybe I need an example of one of those stories that is good. I can see a story that is like "Sometimes you don't need the laser beam eyes" but that reads "Sometimes we don't need Superman". That doesn't make for a good Superman comic to me, I kinda go into it expecting situations that need him.

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CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011



Even at its most optimistic Batman doesn't make the world better he just preserves the status quo and even that is usually shaky.

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Has there ever been a Batman comic where Bruce is confronted by his parents who see his life as Batman and ask him why he used his life spending their money and using their legacy as a vigilante?

I could've sworn there was an episode about this in TAS. Also think Batman: Ego has his inner demons bring up something very similar.

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I could've sworn there was an episode about this in TAS.

I think there's a scene of something like that in mask of the phantasm

I guess it could've happened in the show proper too

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Feb 25, 2006



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The scene in Mask of the Phantasm is him begging his parents' grave to let him be happy.

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I think there's a scene of something like that in mask of the phantasm

I guess it could've happened in the show proper too

in Mask of the Phantasm he asks his parent's tombstone if he can stop being Batman because he's in love, they say no.

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I could've sworn there was an episode about this in TAS. Also think Batman: Ego has his inner demons bring up something very similar.

I think you're thinking of the episode where The Mad Hatter puts him in his Dream Machine thing.

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Feb 25, 2006



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That was the Scarecrow episode where his dad showed up to call him a dumb loser. And his response to that was I AM THE NIGHT!!!

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Batman's parents seem kind of poo poo themselves with respect to philanthropic use of their money. Batman at least represents a real investment and personal stake in the lives of the common people, dumb and counterproductive as it turns out to be.

What did his mom and dad ever do with their millions, sponsor some episodes of Fresh Air with Terry Gross? If you're going to bag on Batman for being a repressive extension of state power and a tool for the status quo, it seems like rich people who just drop some cash into charities and otherwise enjoy the pleasures of owning the means of production seem much worse as far as the neoliberal machine and the damage it causes.

Thomas Wayne would have been an early backer of the Clinton campaign, is what I'm saying.

Wasn't Thomas Wayne's big thing funding hospitals since he was a doctor?

Also the TV show Gotham is kind of digging into this stuff as Bruce learns that the company with his family name on it has been into a bunch of shady poo poo, usually because his family (and father in particular) weren't really paying attention to where their money was coming from.

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No, no it isn't. The central idea behind comic books is that these things would not work in our world. Analyzing exactly why may be meaningful to you, but it's just not to me. There's nothing I get from examining why you can't use laser beams to solve your problems. There's nothing insightful to me about a Batman story that takes a more realistic view of vigilante violence. It's a Batman story. And honestly, none of those stories can ever really do much with that question, because there still has to be Batman comics. To me personally, there is nothing to be gained from analyzing the realism (or lack thereof) in a superhero story and then using that to critique the character. Batman lives in a world where wearing a gaudy suit and punching the right guys makes the universe better. If you start poking holes in that because it would never work in our world, the entire universe collapses around it. It's what superhero comics is built on. And sure you can then say "Wow, dressing up like a bat would totally be dumb!" but I can't follow you to "That is a meaningful take on Batman".


Like I look at this and I don't see the interesting story in the latter. Maybe I need an example of one of those stories that is good. I can see a story that is like "Sometimes you don't need the laser beam eyes" but that reads "Sometimes we don't need Superman". That doesn't make for a good Superman comic to me, I kinda go into it expecting situations that need him.

Surely you recognize this as a personal choice, and an embrace of shallow reading? This comes off as bragging that you refuse depth in your fiction. Not every Batman comic requires a deeper reading, but you would be missing out on the reading experience on great stories because you don't want to challenge yourself with engaging in the story on more than a reactionary or emotional level. Batman gets deconstructed because he is incredibly iconic, has a long history and is a human superhero. He is ripe for commentary on genre conventions and certain aspects of our culture. You seem to be proud that you want to ignore commentary in favor of "punchy punchy, bang bang". Your post sounds like your shoving fingertips into your ear and babbling 'He is the night" when we want to talk about subtext.

"Red Son" is a good Superman comic that explores those ideas with Superman, but there's only like three fight scenes so you'll probably be really bored and confused.

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Surely you recognize this as a personal choice, and an embrace of shallow reading? This comes off as bragging that you refuse depth in your fiction. Not every Batman comic requires a deeper reading, but you would be missing out on the reading experience on great stories because you don't want to challenge yourself with engaging in the story on more than a reactionary or emotional level. Batman gets deconstructed because he is incredibly iconic, has a long history and is a human superhero. He is ripe for commentary on genre conventions and certain aspects of our culture. You seem to be proud that you want to ignore commentary in favor of "punchy punchy, bang bang". Your post sounds like your shoving fingertips into your ear and babbling 'He is the night" when we want to talk about subtext.

"Red Son" is a good Superman comic that explores those ideas with Superman, but there's only like three fight scenes so you'll probably be really bored and confused.

Wow, uh, no. Holy poo poo no. You're not getting what I'm putting down at all. I'm not against a deconstruction of Batman (or anyone else). I'm also not rejecting depth in comic books. The only thing I do not get any enjoyment out of is explaining why/how things in comic books would not work if they were real. I don't know where you got the rest of that stuff from. I believe there is depth in comics to find and discuss beyond "Wow this would be implausible in our world".

I am just seriously baffled by this. I didn't say any of that. My favorite Superman comic is All-Star. Not exactly a punchfest. Red Son is definitely not a story about "Maybe this universe doesn't actually require Superman because he's an unrealistic ideal that nobody could live up to". Not to me at least. A story that points out just how stupid and implausible it is to try and save the world in a giant Bat costume doesn't carry a point to me. Yeah you're right, but everyone signs on knowing that. You're not really making a statement with that hot take. And in-universe, there aren't many ways to go from there. Either Batman has to go "Nuh-uh" and look like an idiot or he has to go "Wow, that does make a lot of sense" and then Batman ends forever.

There's a lot of putting words in my mouth and talking down to me here. Chill, b.

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Wow, uh, no. Holy poo poo no. You're not getting what I'm putting down at all. I'm not against a deconstruction of Batman (or anyone else). I'm also not rejecting depth in comic books. The only thing I do not get any enjoyment out of is explaining why/how things in comic books would not work if they were real. I don't know where you got the rest of that stuff from. I believe there is depth in comics to find and discuss beyond "Wow this would be implausible in our world".

I am just seriously baffled by this. I didn't say any of that. My favorite Superman comic is All-Star. Not exactly a punchfest. Red Son is definitely not a story about "Maybe this universe doesn't actually require Superman because he's an unrealistic ideal that nobody could live up to". Not to me at least. A story that points out just how stupid and implausible it is to try and save the world in a giant Bat costume doesn't carry a point to me. Yeah you're right, but everyone signs on knowing that. You're not really making a statement with that hot take. And in-universe, there aren't many ways to go from there. Either Batman has to go "Nuh-uh" and look like an idiot or he has to go "Wow, that does make a lot of sense" and then Batman ends forever.

There's a lot of putting words in my mouth and talking down to me here. Chill, b.

Can you be a true comics fan if you're not constantly discussing how unrealistic and unattainable superheroes are?

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No, no it isn't. The central idea behind comic books is that these things would not work in our world.

No it isn't.

Comic books are power fantasy but they're not centrally based around the idea that 'this is not things that would work in our world' I've talked about Old Captain Marvel comics before and they were inherent a fanciful idea but a major idea of them was to focus on things that COULD be done in our world using an optimistic and unrealistic figure as a figurehead. Superman is an unobtainable ideal but scenes like the famous suicide scene in All-Star are important because they focus on the idea that a simple act of kindness and understanding is more powerful than super strength.

Comic books are a power fantasy about unrealistic things but the thing that makes them appealing is that they are grounded in realistic ideas. Spider-Man is not a realistic person but his appeal is in the fact that he is dealing with exaggerated versions of things we deal with. This doesn't mean every adventure he has is about that but the central concept of the character is "a simple act of selfishness can go a long way and with great power comes great responsibility" which absolutely does not apply only to people with superpowers.

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. And in-universe, there aren't many ways to go from there. Either Batman has to go "Nuh-uh" and look like an idiot or he has to go "Wow, that does make a lot of sense" and then Batman ends forever.

Correct. Batman is a character trapped in an eternal unchanging status quo and this is effectively canon at this point thanks to all the stories about it. Batman is a character who is eternally doomed to make no meaningful change and yet never give up. He doesn't because we want more Batman stories, not because it's sensible for the character.

It stands out more for Batman than other characters because Batman is supposed to be a less reactive figure whose goal is changing the status quo. He isn't just fighting crime, he is supposed to be improving things. But because Gotham needs to be his villain he can not ever, free latina girl porn ever, actually make meaningful improvement to Gotham. At the end of the day Gotham is going to be 90% crime and run either by mobsters or supervillains because if it wasn't then Batman would be done his job. You can say "well, things have gotten better since Batman showed up" but it is both subtext and text that Batman's arrival just brought out the comic book crazies instead of the traditional mobsters.

Batman, as the character they've set up, needs an ending he'll never get. Instead he'll eternally be a sad broken man in his parent's basement who can never find release or happiness - except for Elseworld stories - since as you said, he either has to keep struggling and look futile or give up.

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Superheroes took over the medium specifically because back when the comics code was introduced, more "realistic" comics were disallowed. It seems bizarre to go back and start complaining about how unrealistic they are.

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May 9, 2008


I've always disliked Batman as a character because of everything being said in this thread right now. Even (especially) by the people defending him.

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I said this before, but my read on The Killing Joke is that's it's more of a story about how we cope with the world. Batman exists less as a character and more of a coping mechanism. He's the part of our brain that is trying to find order in the world to keep ourselves sane. The Joker on the other hand is eroding that in all of his forms. Chris Sims talks a lot about how Batman 66 is about the villains trying to prove Batman's fallible. It's something that I think has been lost, but that's exactly what the Joker is trying to do. He's trying to prove that given the right circumstances that Gordon can break too; abandon order. He's trying to prove that Batman and him are the same thing, opposite and equal reactions from the same action.

The most important thing is that Gordon asks for Joker to be brought in by the book. The most important thing for Gordon is that his sense of order is maintained.

And that's why trying to build up Babs is so wrongheaded. This story is one where Babs is a prop. You could have started the movie with a complete two hour adaptation of Batgirl: Year One, and at the end she is still fridged. It's still a problem.

The movie has two choices if it honestly wants to deal with Babs being used as a prop.

Have something else happen to Gordon entirely.

Have the Joker try to break Babs. Rewrite the story. Have Gordon open the door. Go as dark as you want to with what happens to Babs, but have her be the one who tells Batman to do it by the book. Have her be the one to prove she can't break.

But you know, we need to get that iconic scene of a children's cartoon character raping someone.

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Has there ever been a Batman comic where Bruce is confronted by his parents who see his life as Batman and ask him why he used his life spending their money and using their legacy as a vigilante?
Yep! Death and the Maidens, one of the most sinfully forgotten Batman stories ever by Greg Rucka. It actually includes an interesting counterpoint to that mini-debate RedBackground and I were having earlier where Ra's claims that Batman is murdering him by destroying the Lazarus Pits.

But there is a possibly hallucinated scene where Martha and Thomas talk to Bruce, and they're mortified by what he's done with his life.

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Can you be a true comics fan if you're not constantly discussing how unrealistic and unattainable superheroes are?

Ok I'll accept that Superman can fly, but how does he fly FASTER?
I'll take my True Comic Fan award now. Thank you

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You imagine yourself indomitable. A deluded trust fund orphan who vents his rage and frustration on the poor in alleyways! Repeat after me... "I must but away my Batman costume... and retire from crime-fighting!"

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A Batgirl Year one movie would probably be pretty rad. I wish they had done that instead.

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A Batgirl Year one movie would probably be pretty rad. I wish they had done that instead.

In a perfect world, sure, but with the team of people they have now, I'd rather they just leave that alone.

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Yep! Death and the Maidens, one of the most sinfully forgotten Batman stories ever by Greg Rucka. It actually includes an interesting counterpoint to that mini-debate RedBackground and I were having earlier where Ra's claims that Batman is murdering him by destroying the Lazarus Pits.

But there is a possibly hallucinated scene where Martha and Thomas talk to Bruce, and they're mortified by what he's done with his life.

You rock, dude. Is this collected in a trade?

Also, the friends I saw TKJ with mentioned that there's a Batgirl story where some of the other superheroine's invite her out for a girl's night, which he agrees to hesitantly only to have one of the best nights if her life, which takes place the night before the events of TKJ.

I haven't read it, but they said it's an a amazing short story, and really makes you love Barbara as a person, and with some tweaking (Bats telling Barb she needs a night off) would have been a great first act and made the story more tragic without changing characters or actual plot points.

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You rock, dude. Is this collected in a trade?

Also, the friends I saw TKJ with mentioned that there's a Batgirl story where some of the other superheroine's invite her out for a girl's night, which he agrees to hesitantly only to have one of the best nights if her life, which takes place the night before the events of TKJ.

I haven't read it, but they said it's an a amazing short story, and really makes you love Barbara as a person, and with some tweaking (Bats telling Barb she needs a night off) would have been a great first act and made the story more tragic without changing characters or actual plot points.

That would be Brave and the Bold #33 by Straczynski, which he wrote just before he shat the bed on both the Superman and Wonder Woman titles. Your friends are mistaken, it's more tacky than anything.

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I said this before, but my read on The Killing Joke is that's it's more of a story about how we cope with the world. Batman exists less as a character and more of a coping mechanism. He's the part of our brain that is trying to find order in the world to keep ourselves sane. The Joker on the other hand is eroding that in all of his forms. Chris Sims talks a lot about how Batman 66 is about the villains trying to prove Batman's fallible. It's something that I think has been lost, but that's exactly what the Joker is trying to do. He's trying to prove that given the right circumstances that Gordon can break too; abandon order. He's trying to prove that Batman and him are the same thing, opposite and equal reactions from the same action.

The most important thing is that Gordon asks for Joker to be brought in by the book. The most important thing for Gordon is that his sense of order is maintained.

And that's why trying to build up Babs is so wrongheaded. This story is one where Babs is a prop. You could have started the movie with a complete two hour adaptation of Batgirl: Year One, and at the end she is still fridged. It's still a problem.

This is a really good point. The story fundamentally isn't about Barbara Gordon at all: it's about Batman, the Joker, and her father. I don't think that's a problem you can fix without, as you say, fundamentally rewriting the climax of the story.

It's a climax where all the story's principals meet and their values clash into each other in a big, colourful display of argument - life, justice, injustice, sanity. Barbara isn't one of those principals, and within the context of the story, she has no philosophy that could form a part of that display. The Killing Joke is all in the climax, and Barbara isn't an actor in it in any sense - she isn't there physically, and her own view on the existential issues the story grapples with is considered generally unimportant by the writing such that it doesn't play a role.

Oracle Year One sounds good as hell and looks it from the pages posted here. My personal feeling is that the best course was always to let sleeping dogs lie and just make lemonade out of the perhaps questionable decisions made re: Batgirl in the original story.

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You rock, dude. Is this collected in a trade?

Also, the friends I saw TKJ with mentioned that there's a Batgirl story where some of the other superheroine's invite her out for a girl's night, which he agrees to hesitantly only to have one of the best nights if her life, which takes place the night before the events of TKJ.

I haven't read it, but they said it's an a amazing short story, and really makes you love Barbara as a person, and with some tweaking (Bats telling Barb she needs a night off) would have been a great first act and made the story more tragic without changing characters or actual plot points.

Zatanna has some kind of half premonition that something awful is going to happen to Babs, so they go out. I think Wonder Woman is there too. They dance a poo poo ton.

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Zatanna has some kind of half premonition that something awful is going to happen to Babs, so they go out. I think Wonder Woman is there too. They dance a poo poo ton.

"Don't see any reason to try and prevent whatever tragedy is coming up, we'll just dance and poo poo for a night and then leave her be! You're on your own, Babs, nothing we can do! Bruce can just tell us what happened tomorrow. LET'S GET DRINKIN BITCHESSSSS"

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You rock, dude. Is this collected in a trade?

Also, the friends I saw TKJ with mentioned that there's a Batgirl story where some of the other superheroine's invite her out for a girl's night, which he agrees to hesitantly only to have one of the best nights if her life, which takes place the night before the events of TKJ.

I haven't read it, but they said it's an a amazing short story, and really makes you love Barbara as a person, and with some tweaking (Bats telling Barb she needs a night off) would have been a great first act and made the story more tragic without changing characters or actual plot points.
It was porn kraz blogspot com Brave and the Bold #33. Zatanna has a vision of Barbara getting shot and so she and Wonder Woman take her out dancing to give her nice memories. Zatanna doesn't warn Barbara because this is her fate and intervening could make things worse. It's a disturbing decision but you just have to accept the story's bizarre metaphysics. Lots of DC stories insist that certain events in continuity were fated to happen (until DC decides it wants a reboot, and suddenly they're not). It's a plot device Doctor Who uses to explain why the Doctor never stopped the Holocaust or anything.

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"Don't see any reason to try and prevent whatever tragedy is coming up, we'll just dance and poo poo for a night and then leave her be! You're on your own, Babs, nothing we can do! Bruce can just tell us what happened tomorrow. LET'S GET DRINKIN BITCHESSSSS"

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It was naked girls smoking bongs Brave and the Bold #33. Zatanna has a vision of Barbara getting shot and so she and Wonder Woman take her out dancing to give her nice memories. Zatanna doesn't warn Barbara because this is her fate and intervening could make things worse. It's a disturbing decision but you just have to accept the story's bizarre metaphysics. Lots of DC stories insist that certain events in continuity were fated to happen (until DC decides it wants a reboot, and suddenly they're not). It's a plot device Doctor Who uses to explain why the Doctor never stopped the Holocaust or anything.

Booster Gold has a similar story where he desperately tries to save Barbara and each time he does the universe fucks with him to assure it can't happen.

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Kurzon
May 10, 2013


It's sort of something you have to have in a setting where time travel is a thing.

That gets me thinking about Hell. Hell is a real place in the DCU and many characters have the ability to visit these places and chat with demons and figure out what will really get them in Hell and where they stand with God. Why do characters like Felix Faust traffic with demons when he knows he will end up there plaything at some point?

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I hope Batman shows up in the Gilligan Island Arc of TTG so we can all discuss a good depiction of Batman until Justice League Action airs.

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qntm
Jun 17, 2009


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Batman's parents seem kind of poo poo themselves with respect to philanthropic use of their money. Batman at least represents a real investment and personal stake in the lives of the common people, dumb and counterproductive as it turns out to be.

What did his mom and dad ever do with their millions, sponsor some episodes of Fresh Air with Terry Gross? If you're going to bag on Batman for being a repressive extension of state power and a tool for the status quo, it seems like rich people who just drop some cash into charities and otherwise enjoy the pleasures of owning the means of production seem much worse as far as the neoliberal machine and the damage it causes.

Thomas Wayne would have been an early backer of the Clinton campaign, is what I'm saying.

In Batman Begins they built that commuter railway system! Seems like a decent stab at the problem to me.

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May 13, 2007

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In Batman Begins they built that commuter railway system! Seems like a decent stab at the problem to me.

I love that Batman blows that up and the sequels have all these panning cityscapes that really point out he never rebuilt it.

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ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

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I love that Batman blows that up and the sequels have all these panning cityscapes that really point out he never rebuilt it.

To be fair, they gave up in Rises, and just used a completely untouched NYC for the wide shots. Which is really jarring if you are familiar with NYC at all.

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May 28, 2006


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To be fair, they gave up in Rises, and just used a coTempletely untouched NYC for the wide shots. Which is really jarring if you are familiar with NYC at all.
It is honestly less jarring than the Dark Knight if you're familiar with Chicago.

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