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ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

I only knew TDK was Chicago because people mentioned it online. I figured most people have probably seen sweeping shots of NYC enough, from a million shows and movies, to recognize it. If they had at least tried to keep it to the East River, it might have worked out, but there are some clear shots of just flat out Manhattan, IIRC, and that is kind of nuts because Manhattan is like the one part of NYC that most people around the world are going to recognize. Such a weird thing for them to give no fucks about.

And even if someone had never seen NYC in their life, it looks so radically different than the previous two films that it is still really jarring. (The wide shots.)

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Skwirl
May 13, 2007

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To be fair, they gave up in Rises, and just used a completely untouched NYC for the wide shots. Which is really jarring if you are familiar with NYC at all.

It was a specific editing choice to have all these panning cityscapes. In Dark Knight Nolan even used special cameras for them.

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ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

What was the reason for saying "Gotham is literally just NYC now." As opposed to the other films?

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Lurdiak
Feb 25, 2006



I see stars when you post!

I thought only Begins really made Gotham look distinct. They really gave it this... anachronistic turn of the century look. Like it looked like what people in the early 1900s thought the big cities would shape up to be.

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ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

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I thought only Begins really made Gotham look distinct. They really gave it this... anachronistic turn of the century look. Like it looked like what people in the early 1900s thought the big cities would shape up to be.

Yeah I really liked the look of Gotham in Begins. Those movies had enough of a budget that it was kind of disappointing to see them drop the idea of making Gotham a some what distinct city.

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Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


The one thing I do honestly adore is the Wayne Tower change in The Dark Knight

In the first film, Wayne Tower looks like this

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Bruce changes Wayne Tower so it's dressed like Batman.

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McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005




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To be fair, they gave up in Rises, and just used a completely untouched NYC for the wide shots. Which is really jarring if you are familiar with NYC at all.

At least that has precedent, Metropolis in Superman: The Movie was very blatantly New York plus a model of the Daily Planet globe. I think he even flies by the Statue of Liberty and the Empire State Building in those bluescreened helicopter pans.

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ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

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At least that has precedent, Metropolis in Superman: The Movie was very blatantly New York plus a model of the Daily Planet globe. I think he even flies by the Statue of Liberty and the Empire State Building in those bluescreened helicopter pans.

Yeah but from Batman 89 forward to Begins, they at least tried to create original city scapes. So it's weird to go back to "aww gently caress it, just use a real city for the wides" after all those years. Especially since, if anything, the technology probably makes it easier and maybe even cheaper to make a fake city (even more so in a Batman film like Nolan's where we only see the city for establishing shots, as opposed to a movie with people flying all over the place.)

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BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

If you look up fictitious-yet-canon maps, Gotham is located in New Jersey. And Metropolis is in *Delaware*, supposedly.

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Still, in the most recent movies - when a family gifts a city with a mass transit system, that's not sexy, but it alone probably saved way more jobs than anything.

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Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011





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. Why do characters like Felix Faust traffic with demons when he knows he will end up there plaything at some point?

Because he thinks he can outsmart them.

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Space Fish
Oct 14, 2008

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"Don't see any reason to try and prevent whatever tragedy is coming up, we'll just dance and poo poo for a night and then leave her be! You're on your own, Babs, nothing we can do! Bruce can just tell us what happened tomorrow. LET'S GET DRINKIN BITCHESSSSS"

I don't think the premonition is so specific about the exact circumstances of the tragedy, only that it will happen.
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-Wonder Woman, The Brave and the Bold #33

In the longview, something awful will happen to each of us, so let's enjoy our time together while we have it, you know?

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Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

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Just finished watching the Killing Joke. Overall it IS one of the weakest offerings WB has delivered based on DC. I don't know if is my familiarity with the source what is influencing my opinions but I'd liked it a lot more if they would taken the "Zack Snyder" approach (as in 1:1) to adapt it.

The additions to the original story are pretty drat notorious, both because the animation takes a dive or because the break the pacing of the original plot. Rather than adding to the story, these additions kind of become a distraction.

There's also a lot of dialogue where it shouldn't be one, again, breaking the tone delivered by the original story. Entire passages where's there wasn't any dialogue in the graphic novel, get some clumsy lines ruining the whole sequence.

The final confrontation between the Joker and Batman at the carnival is turned into a more sterotypical comic book fight, with random mooks and everything. Taking away the, "intimate" tone of the confrontation penned by Moore. At least the final dialogue between Batman and Joker continues to be amazing.

The infamous Batgirl sequences also feel really out of place since they don't have any connection to the main plot making it feel like there's two features in the movie rather than a single one. That being said, I really liked the epilogue added for Barbara mid-credits.

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Kurzon
May 10, 2013


Some fans criticized the original comic of eva green sex scenes The Killing Joke for sticking Barbara in a fridge. I don't know what they were expecting - a glorification of her crimefighting career and going out in a blaze of glory? She was just another victim like her father, and that's OK. Victimhood is not shameful. But the makers of this movie decided this was a problem and they put in 30 minutes of Batgirl into a story that was never supposed to be about Batgirl. The sex scene - well, Gordon already has enough reason to resent Batman for not telling him that his daughter is Batgirl. How much worse can a sexual relationship make it (should I even ask that question)?

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ZDar Fan
Oct 15, 2012



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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

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She was just another victim like her father, and that's OK.

This is the issue. She wasn't.

Barbara Gordon was attacked and crippled to hurt Jim Gordon, not because of anything else. Her entire role was to be victimized for the benefit of another character. Her role as Batgirl was entirely unimportant to the story as was everything about her except how she related to her father. That is why it upset people. She was an existing character who was reduced to a Sadness Point for another character.

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Kurzon
May 10, 2013


But there usually is a helpless victim for Batman to rescue. What difference does it make if the victim is a nobody?

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

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But there usually is a helpless victim for Batman to rescue. What difference does it make if the victim is a nobody?

A)
There is an common trend in media of treating female characters as victims and having terrible things happen to them to motivate male characters. This is most commonly known as "women in fridges" after the murder of Kyle Rainer's girlfriend but it existed long before that. It's not exclusive women but even when it isn't it's something that has the sole effect of creating a Sadness Puppet who exists to have bad things happen to them so other people feel bad. It's cheap writing at the best of times but the fact it is uncommonly normal for it to trend towards women (wives and daughters especially) makes it noteworthy.

B)
Even if the above wasn't true, Barbara Gordon was a long-time character who had her own fans, her own series and so-on. Reducing her horrifying trauma to little more than a side note in a story about other characters is genuinely lovely. This is not an exclusively lady thing but again it is somewhat more common for women characters. Having Barbara who was, at the time, a talented individual, former congresswoman, former superhero and well-established character reduced to 'person who gets shot so Batman and Jim Gordon feel bad' is dumb.

This isn't even a case of it being 'people on the internet' being upset about something. The fact that this happened to Barbara Gordon was a significant factor in the writers of Suicide Squad bringing her back as Oracle in order to do something about the fact that she was reduced to a side note in other people's stories. It's a common and well-voiced criticism of The Killing Joke that even Alan Moore agrees has merit. He even was unsure about doing it during the original writing and his editor said quote: ""Cripple the bitch."

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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment,
I wouldn't have any appointment.


Grimey Drawer

My main problem: Not every superheroine needs to be a symbol for feminism, but they should at least be able to pass the Bechdel Test.

Batgirl in TKJ is the reason the Bechdel Test is important for modern storytelling, especially when it comes to "comic book stories", because it's consistently a major offender.

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Kurzon
May 10, 2013


OK. If you want to examine the trend of "fridging" women, you can only do so as a pattern across the whole industry. The Killing Joke is just one data point.

This kind of injury is easily reversible in comics - use magic or aliens or cybernetic parts or whatever. The problem therefore is what happened after The Killing Joke (which was never meant to be mainstream continuity anyway). For what it's worth, I thought Oracle was an interesting character. There are not many crippled hackers in comic-book land. That it took so long for Barbara to become Batgirl again is evidence that readers liked Oracle.

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Lurdiak
Feb 25, 2006



I see stars when you post!

Oracle was certainly a more interesting character than Barbara Gordon as Batgirl ever was.

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

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OK. If you want to examine the trend of "fridging" women, you can only do so as a pattern across the whole industry. The Killing Joke is just one data point.

Except even within the confines of The Killing Joke it's bad writing, for exactly the reasons pointed out. Barbara Gordon exists as someone in the story who gets horrifyingly abused and crippled porn pics search engine only as a point for someone else's storyline and nothing else.

That's not good writing. It isn't good writing when Lois Lane gets blown up so Superman feels bad, it isn't good writing when Firestorm randomly blows up in the middle of a crossover for no reason, and so-on.

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Lurdiak
Feb 25, 2006



I see stars when you post!

You can't make Killing Joke badly written just by repeating the lie often enough.

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

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You can't make Killing Joke badly written just by repeating the lie often enough.

God, you really are just the worst loving poster in this subforum.

You know what you could maybe do? Actually do something besides a single poo poo-and-run post? Except apparently you're entirely incapable of that.

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A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

Perhaps you'd like to come upstairs and view my etchings?


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God, you really are just the worst loving poster in this subforum.

Somethings wrong with him

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Kurzon
May 10, 2013


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Except even within the confines of The Killing Joke it's bad writing, for exactly the reasons pointed out. Barbara Gordon exists as someone in the story who gets horrifyingly abused and crippled shannon tweed nude clips only as a point for someone else's storyline and nothing else.

That's not good writing. It isn't good writing when Lois Lane gets blown up so Superman feels bad, it isn't good writing when Firestorm randomly blows up in the middle of a crossover for no reason, and so-on.
Nobody complained about Gordon's victimization. Or the 10,000 other nameless victims that pop up in other Batman stories.

If the issue is that Batgirl fans would no longer get any more Batgirl stories, well, then you should ask why DC editorial decided to integrate TKJ into mainstream continuity and keep Barabara crippled for 23 years.

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A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

Perhaps you'd like to come upstairs and view my etchings?


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Nobody complained about Gordon's victimization. Or the 10,000 other nameless victims that pop up in other Batman stories.

If the issue is that Batgirl fans would no longer get any more Batgirl stories, well, then you should ask why DC editorial decided to integrate TKJ into mainstream continuity and keep Barabara crippled for 23 years.

What victimization are you talking about

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Kurzon
May 10, 2013


He got beaten, kidnapped, stripped naked, and tormented with pictures of his daughter. Sure, he could still walk after that, but gently caress you if you think he's not a victim too.

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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment,
I wouldn't have any appointment.


Grimey Drawer

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God, you really are just the worst loving poster in this subforum.

You know what you could maybe do? Actually do something besides a single poo poo-and-run post? Except apparently you're entirely incapable of that.

Woah, back off Lurdiak. I don't see you hosting Scream Stream every year for Halloween. They're entitled to their opinion, just like you're entitled to repeating the same thing over and over.

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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment,
I wouldn't have any appointment.


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He got beaten, kidnapped, stripped naked, and tormented with pictures of his daughter. Sure, he could still walk after that, but gently caress you if you think he's not a victim too.

And possibly sexually assaulted by mentally handicapped dwarves.

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A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

Perhaps you'd like to come upstairs and view my etchings?


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He got beaten, kidnapped, stripped naked, and tormented with pictures of his daughter. Sure, he could still walk after that, but gently caress you if you think he's not a victim too.


Seems pretty lesser

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

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Nobody complained about Gordon's victimization.

Because Gordon's victimization is literally the point of the story. It has a complete character that is explored throughout the story. The story is free sex clips xxnx about Gordon's victimization. It isn't about Barbara's which is entirely incidental.

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Or the 10,000 other nameless victims that pop up in other Batman stories.

This is because 'nameless victim who dies before the story starts' isn't the same as a long-established character. People do however complain when it happens to those established characters for exactly that reason.


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If the issue is that Batgirl fans would no longer get any more Batgirl stories, well, then you should ask why DC editorial decided to integrate TKJ into mainstream continuity and keep Barabara crippled for 23 years.

That isn't the issue at all. Batgirl was retired at the time The Killing Joke happened. (Though in comic form she probably would have un-retired at some point.)

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Woah, back off Lurdiak. I don't see you hosting Scream Stream every year for Halloween. They're entitled to their opinion, just like you're entitled to repeating the same thing over and over.

I don't particularly see any reason to 'back off' of someone whose primary method of posting is hopping in, making a snide shitpost and then dancing away, I don't care if they host a stream.

It also isn't particularly a difference in opinion is they start calling someone a liar.

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A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

Perhaps you'd like to come upstairs and view my etchings?


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And possibly sexually assaulted by mentally handicapped dwarves.

This really sounds like a great and important comic book

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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment,
I wouldn't have any appointment.


Grimey Drawer

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This really sounds like a great and important comic book

I mean, it's Alan Moore. Do you really expect anything different? Dude worships snake gods and performs magick just to troll people's religious beliefs.

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Kurzon
May 10, 2013


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This is because 'nameless victim who dies before the story starts' isn't the same as a long-established character. People do however complain when it happens to those established characters for exactly that reason.
And it's not a criticism I accept. They're talking as if Alan Moore shot their sister. Barbara Gordon wasn't mis-characterized, nor was her traumatic experience treated tastelessly. If the issue was no more Batgirl stories, that's not the fault of TKJ but DC editorial's decision to keep her crippled. If the issue is poor emotional closure for Barbara post-TKJ, then you have to decide if Oracle and the over 50 and naked Birds of Prey series did her a disservice.

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Do people really not understand the difference between a character that readers have had years to come to enjoy and love and an unseen before McGuffin murder victim?

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

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A major thing with Killing Joke that is sort of lost is that it was supposed to be gruesome and shocking. What the Joker does is supposed to be above and beyond the pale and completely uncommon even for him. The sexual elements are probably a bit Alan Moore but they do serve a purpose. It's supposed to be horrifying beyond the norm and to break the 'rules' of the game. It makes sense within the confines of the story but has been subsequently lessened by years and years of Joker doing things as bad or not worse. When Killing Joke was made Harley Quinn didn't exist but these days "Joker has a weird abusive possibly-sexual relationship' is a defined part of the character. Almost everything in The Killing Joke is, due to the Killing Joke being popular, a common part of the character and so the end result is that the context is almost entirely lost.

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And it's not a criticism I accept. They're talking as if Alan Moore shot their sister. Barbara Gordon wasn't mis-characterized, nor was her traumatic experience treated tastelessly.

Yes it was. That's the point people are making. Barbara Gordon's trauma is almost entirely glossed over. She gets nothing in the story except one scene after she's shot which isn't really even about her. It is the definition of Glossed Over.

Again, this isn't even a case of 'well, people are arguing about it after the fact.' It was a criticism of the book after it came out and is what hottest woman in porn lead to Oracle, the fact that her trauma was so glossed over.

latest sex videos tube8 Alan Moore has been critical of the treatment of Barbara in The Killing Joke.

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If the issue was no more Batgirl stories

I already said why this isn't the case. It wasn't about there being no more Batgirl stories. The character was retired at the time The Killing Joke was written.

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Kurzon
May 10, 2013


teen with perfect tits The Killing Joke was released at a point when writers in the comic industry wanted to move away from the light-hearted silliness of the 60s and 70s and do more gritty and serious drama. It shows in the dialogue. At his home, Jim express his hopes that the Joker won't escape yet again - he escapes so frequently in the Silver Age, but in real life American prisons are rather secure. Detective Bullock gets an invitation from the Joker that basically tells him he's at the amusement park, and instead of heading there immediately with three SWAT divisions, he summons the Batman with that stupid spotlight and sends him there alone - the cops exist only to pick up the villains Batman captures.

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Yes it was. That's the point people are making. Barbara Gordon's trauma is almost entirely glossed over. She gets nothing in the story except one scene after she's shot which isn't really even about her. It is the definition of Glossed Over.
How would you have written it?

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A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

Perhaps you'd like to come upstairs and view my etchings?


Whats with the wikipedia quote?

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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment,
I wouldn't have any appointment.


Grimey Drawer

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A major thing with Killing Joke that is sort of lost is that it was supposed to be gruesome and shocking. What the Joker does is supposed to be above and beyond the pale and completely uncommon even for him. The sexual elements are probably a bit Alan Moore but they do serve a purpose. It's supposed to be horrifying beyond the norm and to break the 'rules' of the game. It makes sense within the confines of the story but has been subsequently lessened by years and years of Joker doing things as bad or not worse. When Killing Joke was made Harley Quinn didn't exist but these days "Joker has a weird abusive possibly-sexual relationship' is a defined part of the character. Almost everything in The Killing Joke is, due to the Killing Joke being popular, and so the end result is that the context is almost entirely lost.


Yes it was. That's the point people are making. Barbara Gordon's trauma is almost entirely glossed over. She gets nothing in the story except one scene after she's shot which isn't really even about her. It is the definition of Glossed Over.

Again, this isn't even a case of 'well, people are arguing about it after the fact.' It was a criticism of the book after it came out and is what lesbian mom and young lead to Oracle, the fact that her trauma was so glossed over.

I dunno, dude. That's kinda like saying 'What most people don't understand about A Clockwork Orange is that the scene where the man is beaten into permanently paralysis while he is forced to watch his wife get gang raped is supposed to be wild cherry teen thumbnail shocking.' Yeah, there are worse things that have been filmed since then, but that doesn't mean an average person subjected to viewing it won't be disturbed. The same is true about TKJ. Sure, Joker has done worse things in print since TKJ, but that doesn't make it less terrible. It's also hard to argue. How do you know whether or not it's effective, unless you personally poll everyone?

The scene is still shocking, because it's hosed up, no matter if you've watched Straw Dogs the night before or whatever.

Sure, Barbara's trauma doesn't get as much time or attention, but the story's main idea is Batman presenting The Joker with the inevitable and trying to escape that. Gordon is used as the guinea pig to prove that One Bad Day can change everything. And yeah, Barbara is the one getting hosed most in the situation, but she's also unconscious for the rest of the story. (I admit I could be wrong about that, since I haven't read TKJ in a few years). For the story to explore it's themes and ideas, it has three character arcs--Batman, Joker and Gordon-- to prove the point. Exploring the implications of Barbara's life being torn to shreds from the events in the context of the story would be too difficult. The story takes place in one night, with flashbacks to The Joker's "past". How can you explore the consequences for Barbara in that time frame? Especially if she's unconscious or in a hospital?

There's an argument that the woman doesn't get her time, and yeah, that's a problem in general with the industry, but we're also talking about a one-off story in the 1980's. But with practicality in story-telling, the idea that the story is trying to convey didn't want to utilize Barb. They have to be concise, you know?

I have issues with TKJ movie, because it chose to embellish the story in a lovely way, and took a character that, as you agree, doesn't get the service in the story, and turns her into a sex object for pretty much every man in the story (even her father who is forced to see her bleeding nude body projected in a fun-house ride over and over again) beyond what is necessary for the story outside of original context.

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

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How would you have written it?

It depends honestly. There's a lot of different directions but it depends on how far away from the original story you'd want to go.

Any sort of closure for Barbara would probably have done a lot for people but obviously that doesn't work within the confines of the pacing of the original novel. You can't really give closure to Barbara in a story that isn't about her. (Which is, again, why Suicide Squad chose to do that. You can't rewrite the Killing Joke but you can pick up the pieces afterwards.)

If you're willing to break out of the confines of the original story then the answer is simple enough: Make Barbara part of the story and not just an incidental bystander. Make it a story about the Gordons and not just Jim Gordon. Gordon triumphing over his 'one bad day' (or whatever alternate reading you prefer for that) shouldn't just be Jim Gordon considering that his daughter had just a terrible day but we never see her response within the confines of the story. Give her more time, allow us to see her response, and make her a character instead of a prop.



This page is obviously a bit on-the-nose but it exists entirely to give Barbara Gordon the response she never got in The Killing Joke. You're obviously not going to dedicate the entire story to Barbara the way Oracle: Year One does but allowing her agency and a response does a lot for the story.

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The scene is still shocking, because it's hosed up, no matter if you've watched Straw Dogs the night before or whatever.

You're not wrong. The scene is still shocking but at the same time it's 'business as usual' for the Joker who exists as a shocking character these days. He's the guy who cuts off his own face and murders babies.

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But with practicality in story-telling, the idea that the story is trying to convey didn't want to utilize Barb. They have to be concise, you know?

"They had to be concise" doesn't really change it though? "It's the most convenient way to write the story' doesn't mean you're still not doing a thing. It's just the reason why it happens so often. Understanding why something happens doesn't really change that it happens if you get what I mean.

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