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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


It's an unfortunate convention that we talk about guns merely in terms of calibre, when so many other factors can differ. Not just length, but recoil mechanism, metallurgy, the geometry of the round, whether it uses two part ammo and so on...

The famous British 17pdr was also a 76 mm gun, but well, there was a reason why that gun needed a hole cut in the back of the turret and the 76mm upgun didn't.

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Oct 10, 2012

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So uh, what is happening to the on going stuff still being worked on like the chris rihanna sex tape Taiping/Polish Soviet War and a few other mega post projects goons in the last thread were doing? they going to keep going and repost the older stuff when they are done?

I kind of read this as one thing and my brain kind of melted figuring out how that work. A modded game of Civ gone horribly awry?


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Warlord Games have you covered from Biblical warfare (and earlier) to pikes to WWII and even far future. Near future, too, if you count Judge Dredd.
Id argue Terminator is a better representation of near future. And mid-80s, too!

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The problem is that "Best X of WWII" often falls flat or has some individual bias that tarnishes the argument. Do you look at the potential a design had? Do you look at the various strengths and weakness and, if so, which variant(s) do you compare? Do you examine combat reports where only tanks fought eachother, or do you allow air-to-ground reports or combined arms actions?

There's no denying the T-34 is a good/great (Choose one) tank but "Best of X" always bugs me.

Admittedly, I'm weird and a grog so
I know Zaloga put out 'Armoured Champion' to finally put a lid on this and made sure to rate everything both from a commander's perspective but also from a tanker's view. I'm sure there'll never be a definitive answer, but I think we can all agree the Panther was overrated.

Has anyone got Rossmum's teardown of the Panther? Also Ensign's teardowns of the Tiger & King Tiger are things of beauty and really are must reads for any tank grog.

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



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Alright yeah that's what I'm missing. For some reason I thought France and Belgium/Netherlands were allies before the war but Google tells me they didn't join until Germany attacked. There it is then, RIP

Yeah, to be clear there was significant coordination between the Belgian government and France, and somewhat less so between the Dutch and the Allies, but it did not extend to "Go ahead and station troops on our soil" since both the Low Countries were strictly neutral.

The prepared defenses in the Gembloux gap and along the Dyle line were 100-200km from the jumping-off points of the allied troops, so it took them a couple days to roll forward and get organized. The Allies assumed it would take 8-14 days for the Germans to reach the Dyle in any kind of force, and it took just about four. Even in prepared positions, it takes a while to get everything sorted out.

Plus, since the Belgians were doing the funding of the defenses, they weren't that good. They severely underestimated armored and motorized capabilities and just didn't have that much money.

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xthetenth
Dec 30, 2012

Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.



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Can someone explain what was so special about that extra millimeter between the 76mm and 75mm?

I mean I get it upped the penetrating power but was there a muzzle velocity change as well or something? Otherwise I don't see how a single mm makes a difference.

That's a western allied thing. The 75mm the US and UK made were guns designed around the shell and propellant of the famed French 75mm gun. That's a low velocity metric shell. The US did it from the start as a bespoke tank gun, while the British bored out their 57mm 6 pounder, but the main goal was a gun with good penetration by early war standards and a good HE shell. Later in the war they needed a punchier gun with more penetration, so they both made guns in that size range. Both used inches, and 76mm is three inches.

It's an accident of history, and doesn't apply to other countries.

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



The Panther is simultaneously overrated and underrated. It's Scroedinger's cat.

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I know Zaloga put out 'Armoured Champion' to finally put a lid on this and made sure to rate everything both from a commander's perspective but also from a tanker's view. I'm sure there'll never be a definitive answer, but I think we can all agree the Panther was overrated.

Has anyone got Rossmum's teardown of the Panther? Also Ensign's teardowns of the Tiger & King Tiger are things of beauty and really are must reads for any tank grog.

I just put it down as "okay/good" but great is certainly stretching it.



In any case, here's a post I don't think I ever put in the old military thread.


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"Ground Attack" Cartridges


vickie guerrero's nude photographs From Left to Right:
ShVAK (20 x 99R) -- VYa, Postwar (23 x 152B) -- MK101/MK103 (30 x 184B) -- 37mm M4/M10 (37 x 145R) -- 3.7cm BK 3.7 (37 x 263B) -- 40mm Vickers Class S (40 x 158R) -- 5cm BK 5 (50 x 419R) -- 6pdr Molins (57 x 441R)



"Fighter Gun" Cartridges


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.50 Browning (12.7 x 99) -- Hispano HS 404/AN-M2 (20 x 110) -- 37mm M4/M10 (37 x 145R) -- IJN 13mm Type 3 (13.2 x 99) -- IJN Type 99-1 (20 x 72RB) -- IJN Type 99-2 (20 x 101RB) -- 12.7mm Breda-SAFAT/Scotti/IJA Ho-103 (12.7 x 81SR) -- IJA Ho-5 (20 x 94) -- IJA Ho-1/Ho-3 (20 x 125) -- 12.7mm Beresin (12.7 x 108) -- ShVAK (20 x 99R) -- MG 131 / IJN 13mm Type 2 (13 x 64B) -- MG 151 (15 x 96) -- MG-FF (20 x 80RB) -- MG 151/20 (20 x 82) - MG 204 (20 x 105) -- MK 108 (30 x 90RB) -- MK 103 (30 x 184B)



100 hottest naked women Fun fact: The .50 cal Browning cartridge (12.7 x 99) has 2/3rds more Muzzle Energy, at 17,800 joules, than the 12.7mm Breda-SAFAT / 12.7mm Type 1 - Ho-103, at 10,600 joules.

The higher the muzzle velocity, the more destructive potential the round has

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TasogareNoKagi
Jul 10, 2013



How do you keep the various military subdivisions straight? Battalion, brigade, company, corps, division ...

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Nov 11, 2008

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I kind of read this as one thing and my brain kind of melted figuring out how that work. A modded game of Civ gone horribly awry?

Id argue Terminator is a better representation of near future. And mid-80s, too!

I know Zaloga put out 'Armoured Champion' to finally put a lid on this and made sure to rate everything both from a commander's perspective but also from a tanker's view. I'm sure there'll never be a definitive answer, but I think we can all agree the Panther was overrated.

Has anyone got Rossmum's teardown of the Panther? Also Ensign's teardowns of the Tiger & King Tiger are things of beauty and really are must reads for any tank grog.

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Oct 17, 2012

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The Panther is simultaneously overrated and underrated. It's Scroedinger's cat.

Yeah, well, history is a bitch.

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Nov 11, 2008

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How do you keep the various military subdivisions straight? Battalion, brigade, company, corps, division ...

You can't, not really. Not only can a certain term mean two different things across the front lines, the amount of subunits in one kind of unit can change within one nation throughout a war. A good rule is the "rule of threes": three platoons to a company, three companies to a battalion, three battalions to a regiment, give or take. Usually.

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Koesj
Aug 3, 2003


And then with the soviets during the late cold war it's five battalions to a regiment, and four regiments to a division! Oh but they're free porn eating pussy weak battalions, like 30 tanks each, so good luck counting one for one!

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Jan 16, 2012


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How do you keep the various military subdivisions straight? Battalion, brigade, company, corps, division ...

Just got to get used to them.

Alternatively, use this system
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Apr 22, 2005



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How do you keep the various military subdivisions straight? Battalion, brigade, company, corps, division ...

Same as most other knowledge, you just need to spend enough time thinking about it and then it sticks. There was a day when Jimi Hendrix only knew one chord, and there was a day when I couldn't remember whether the company commander reports to the platoon commander, or t'other way about. Then I spent a few years reading about stuff and now I can usually remember that infantry companies, cavalry squadrons, and artillery batteries are rough equivalents of each other.

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OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning, little relevancy bore.


If you like army organizational groups you will free nude girl movie love ship classifications from the age of sail through to the modern day!

Also I am hella bad at tank sillhouettes from that tanker book

I think I picked the M10 about 8 times, which is sad because eventually I remembered it's really easy to identify because of the sick turret spoiler.

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Feb 19, 2004



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If you like army organizational groups you will guild wars nude patch love ship classifications from the age of sail through to the modern day!


I can barely read Patrick O'Brian so I couldn't even imagine

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OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning, little relevancy bore.


1900 onwards is like the best time because the first part of it was spent building bigger and bigger ships with bigger and bigger guns, then they figured out that planes could a) carry bombs and torpedoes and b) could take off from boats and proceeded to spend a long time figuring out how the gently caress to deal with this.

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As uh... was their approach to camouflage.

For a brief, glorious time in the first world war there was an aircraft carrier with the hull of a light cruiser sailing around with an 18 inch battlecruiser cannon stuck on the back and a massive ramp on the front.



The werecraftcarrier.

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Nov 11, 2008

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If you like army organizational groups you will that 70's show nude love ship classifications from the age of sail through to the modern day!

Also I am hella bad at tank sillhouettes from that tanker book

I think I picked the M10 about 8 times, which is sad because eventually I remembered it's really easy to identify because of the sick turret spoiler.

That entire family looks pretty similar. Or maybe I'm just an American TD racist.

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Plan Z
May 6, 2012



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Ah, I can see where that'd be confusing.

any idea why the extra dude was there? Just some straggler?


I don't want to restart The Wars but is there a link to when this discussion was happening? It's a topic I did hit on a few months ago and wanted some opinions on but didn't want to poke the nest

Essentially every cool head comes to relatively the same place that Harry Yeide did: The bare-bones paper doctrine for the US TD forces was pretty dumb, but putting a gun on an armored chassis and training the hell out of the crew to be flexible and deadly with them Wasn't So Bad. There were also decisions made after the doctrine like the post-Kasserine converting of GMC TD units to towed that was dumb for an army that needed to stay so mobile but McNair was an artillery man so what can you expect. What we ended up getting out of the GMC units was a bunch of guys who were put out front and had the initiative and training to know what they could do, whether it was M10s as artillery support in Italy, M18s working as mobile armored cav in France, or any of them being direct fire support for armored or infantry attacks, we made the best of a situation that could have been a big waste.


Yeah I mean considering that the picture depicts four vehicles, two chassis, three guns, and two turrets, I couldn't blame anyone.


Ooh, more questions: What kind of ways did ancient armies get through pike phalanxes frontally? I heard of the Persians charging their blade-wheeled chariots through them, but that seems weird in my brain because the horse literally goes before the cart.

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Yeah I mean considering that the picture depicts four vehicles, two chassis, three guns, and two turrets, I couldn't blame anyone.

Doesn't even include the hellcat.

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For a brief, glorious time in the first world war there was an aircraft carrier with the hull of a light cruiser sailing around with an 18 inch battlecruiser cannon stuck on the back and a massive ramp on the front.



The werecraftcarrier.

And yet it wasn't the carrier that crippled a heavy cruiser with the carrier's own guns. That honor would go to escort carrier USS White Plains and its 5-incher.

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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Don't disrespect guns the length of toothbrushes

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Dec 30, 2012

Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.



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For a brief, glorious time in the first world war there was an aircraft carrier with the hull of a light cruiser sailing around with an 18 inch battlecruiser cannon stuck on the back and a massive ramp on the front.



The werecraftcarrier.

Also remember that they landed on that. Yes there's no deck in the rear. Do you think that stopped them?

Yes it did, that ship killed a lot of pilots.

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I did some learning today about an obscure part of naval military history: the South American naval arms races of the early 20th century, specifically Brazil's Minas Geraes class battleships when they were announced as Brazil's unique unit in Civilization 6. They made Brazil the third country in the world, after the UK and US, to order and build modern dreadnought-type battleships, and set off a naval arms race between Brazil, Argentina, and Chile.

A Brazilian poster in the Civ6 thread in Games commented they'd never heard of the ships (there were two), and after reading up on their service history I'm not terribly surprised. They had a huge international impact when they arrived, but their history afterwards was less than glorious - both were among the ships that mutinied during the Revolt of the Lash, and the crew of the Sao Paolo (the second of the class) subsequently mutinied again in 1924. The only battles either ship were involved in were internal Brazilian revolts - the Tenente revolts in 1922 and the Constitutionalist Revolution in 1934.

Both ships nominally took part in the First and Second World Wars, but didn't do anything noteworthy: they were offered to the British during WW1 but the British declined due to the ships' poor condition and lack of modern fire control systems. Both were top of the line warships among the most powerful in the world when they were launched, but were outdated by the time Brazil entered WW1 and hadn't been maintained well or modernized. They both then served as harbor guard ships during WW2 and never fired a shot in anger.

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xthetenth
Dec 30, 2012

Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.



I think my favorite part of the South American dreadnought race is the Rivadavia class' ordering shenanigans.

Brazil bought theirs from Britain to a British design. Chile bought theirs to a British design after a reasonably normal bidding process where political concerns made it a British slam dunk. But the Argentines did something fun. They took all the proposals tendered to an intentionally vague specification (don't want to rule out the best practices now do you?), looked at them, and called for another round with the best aspects of each. They did it again after that over the panicked howling of all the shipbuilders that their trade secrets were being given away. Then they gave it to Fore River, who tendered the lowest bid. It probably didn't hurt that while various members of government favored various European companies, the US had an ally in the owner, editor and naval editor of Buenos Aires' main newspaper, and some hefty assistance from the US government.

And that's how US shipyards ended up building a ship with superfiring turrets like US practice, wing turrets like UK practice, a 6-inch secondary battery and three screws like German ships, and an engine and boiler layout like an Italian ship.

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Jun 8, 2012

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Why did the US suffer less casualties from Iraq than Vietnam?

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If I'm not mistaken, lower casualty rates are generally attributed to improvements in medical technology and training, combined with improvements in body armor.

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Why did the US suffer less casualties from Iraq than Vietnam?

They were completely different conflicts, hugely driven by terrain.

In Iraq, the USA was able to destroy the Iraqi army in a matter of weeks (?). Was a complete walkover, there was the Iraqi army and then it was destroyed. At which point it was effectively an occupation with an insurgency.

In Vietnam, the USA was never able to destroy the enemy army in the field. Largely because it was unable to find it. Throughout the Vietnam conflict, the Viet Cong continued to exist as an effective fighting force and maintained the capacity to engage with the USA army proper, in the field. What the USA was able to achieve in Iraq in a matter of weeks, it failed to ever achieve in Vietnam. drat Jungle.

Very simplified overview.

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Would it be fair to say that the invasion of France, and Russia for that matter, depended heavily on the defenders making a poo poo ton of mistakes, large and small? I just get the impression that gay black Hitler is really facing an uphill fight just to reproduce Germany's historical performance, let alone do that and also add that one weird trick wehraboos think would win the war.

It seems like, on the macro scale, the side that eventually lost started out with less resources, spent them at a pretty commensurate rate to the side that eventually won, finally ran out, and had to surrender. The whole thing was in one sense a bet that their enemies wouldn't want to spend all those lives, all that money, all that material, so soon after the last insanely devastating war. This is all with the benefit of hindsight though of course

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They were completely different conflicts, hugely driven by terrain.

In Iraq, the USA was able to destroy the Iraqi army in a matter of weeks (?). Was a complete walkover, there was the Iraqi army and then it was destroyed. At which point it was effectively an occupation with an insurgency.

In Vietnam, the USA was never able to destroy the enemy army in the field. Largely because it was unable to find it. Throughout the Vietnam conflict, the Viet Cong continued to exist as an effective fighting force and maintained the capacity to engage with the USA army proper, in the field. What the USA was able to achieve in Iraq in a matter of weeks, it failed to ever achieve in Vietnam. drat Jungle.

Very simplified overview.

All cogent points, I'd add that the US forces were not permitted to invade north Vietnam on the ground and rout their main armies and demolish/occupy their production facilities for good (which is what happened in Iraq right away) for political reasons, out of fears that it would start a world war involving China and/or Russia. The NVA had no such compunctions, and often entered south Vietnam, where the terrain permitted ambushes of U.S. forces.

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Jun 16, 2010


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I am going to UK/France soon. Part of my trip I certainly plan on going through the Normandy beaches and maybe spending a night in Caen and so forth. Have people here been through that area before? Can you tell me if there are anything specific I should go to/do? Even if its a little out of the way and worth it, very interested. Will also be in Paris.

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Grand Prize Winner
Feb 19, 2007




See if you can dig up any tours of the Zone Rouge or Zone Jaune, the former frontline areas of the First World War.

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That's a western allied thing. The 75mm the US and UK made were guns designed around the shell and propellant of the famed French 75mm gun. That's a low velocity metric shell. The US did it from the start as a bespoke tank gun, while the British bored out their 57mm 6 pounder, but the main goal was a gun with good penetration by early war standards and a good HE shell. Later in the war they needed a punchier gun with more penetration, so they both made guns in that size range. Both used inches, and 76mm is three inches.

It's an accident of history, and doesn't apply to other countries.

My recollection (and wikipedia's assertion) is that this actually became a big thing when the Soviets reverse-engineered the B29 into the Tu4, because the B29's materials were all measured in Imperial units and the Soviets used metric - they struggled to get a conversion that a factory could use.

It's interesting to consider how an essentially arbitrary way of thinking - how do we assign value to a unit of distance? - has fundamental implications like this in the real world.

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May 25, 2008

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Let's not forget the Mars Climate Orbiter, that desintegrated in orbit because engineers failed to convert units from imperial to metric

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All cogent points, I'd add that the US forces were not permitted to invade north Vietnam on the ground and rout their main armies and demolish/occupy their production facilities for good (which is what happened in Iraq right away) for political reasons, out of fears that it would start a world war involving China and/or Russia. The NVA had no such compunctions, and often entered south Vietnam, where the terrain permitted ambushes of U.S. forces.

There was also the border with Cambodia, one the U.S. at least had to appear like they respected while the NVA was able to funnel manpower and supplies to the south by breaching it.

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There was also the border with Cambodia, one the U.S. at least had to appear like they respected while the NVA was able to funnel manpower and supplies to the south by breaching it.

Very true, the Laotian one as well, though bombing that one was more palatable.

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May 18, 2012

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I kind of read this as one thing and my brain kind of melted figuring out how that work. A modded game of Civ gone horribly awry?


There actually free adult sex picture was a Soviet/China-war inbetween world wars, but I think he meant two different post series here: The posts about Taiping, and the posts about the war between Poland and the Soviet Union (coincidentally, that one also happened between WWI and WWII).

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Now there is a thing. I love the idea of putting HEY GAL in charge of a 30YW army.....

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Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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How do you keep the various military subdivisions straight? Battalion, brigade, company, corps, division ...
in my period it's actually really easy

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