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Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


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Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



I'm the thread's biggest Fake Martial Arts Apologist, but I've been watching a bunch of Fightpass lately and... Punchsports look pretty fun. Maybe if I ever have a stable job and free healthcare I'll try some.

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kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

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What's wrong with the guy? I don't know much high level striking and fighting stuff so I always found him entertaining but I might be missing something.

I like his analyses, but the whole "fat sherdog poster" vibe comes from generally downplaying/ignoring non-technical aspects of a fight.
It's like he treats fighters as Tekken characters whose technique never wavers and who don't tire and don't get affected by getting hit.

Because of that, he does best when talking about fights that stay technical til the end, instead of ones where single big hits radically change the tone of the fight.

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Is this how it's supposed to look? I admit that I don't know anything about martial arts, but it looks a heck of a lot like what used to pass for "sparring days" at the taekwondo place I went to as a kid.

Insofar as these guys clearly do some sparring in preparation for this competition, all live sparring tends to look similar, with less efficient or less effective movements getting weeded out.
The big flaw here is these guys are sacrificing all power for the sake of speed, so they throw these pointless arm punch combos. Pointless in a ruleset when you can score on damage, that is. That tactic might very well score well on whatever WC ruleset is involved there.

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Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


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Is this how it's supposed to look? I admit that I don't know anything about martial arts, but it looks a heck of a lot like what used to pass for "sparring days" at the taekwondo place I went to as a kid.


Actually it'd look like this in the ideal wing chun world.
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but, what Siivola's video is pretty much par for the course. No head defense, chain punches, single shots, very little defensive movement except for wedge intercepts.

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




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Actually it'd look like this in the ideal wing chun world.
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but, what Siivola's video is pretty much par for the course. No head defense, chain punches, single shots, very little defensive movement except for wedge intercepts.

That video is the dumbest poo poo I've seen since the World Championships of Competitive Breaking Karate video.

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Now that I'm about to start boxing I'm actually getting a bit worried - how much damage can the sport do to your brain? If I'm anxious about this sort of thing I should probably leave out sparring, but is boxing without sparring still useful?

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Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


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Now that I'm about to start boxing I'm actually getting a bit worried - how much damage can the sport do to your brain? If I'm anxious about this sort of thing I should probably leave out sparring, but is boxing without sparring still useful?

If you're wearing headgear and a mouthguard and your sparring partner isn't trying to knock your teeth down your throat, and he shouldn't be all the time, you should be fine. Boxing without sparring is useful if your only goal is to get in shape and have some fun.

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May 15, 2003

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Pretty sure that is Tomoe Nage. I was taught to only use it when you are completely knackered and have nothing else but its just so much fun.

It's a legit good attack, but you have to know when to use it. It's a really great newbie crusher since they tend to push on you a lot so they go flying easy. I think a lot of coach tell people to stay away because in competition if the other guy looks like he kind of may be tried to do foot sweep and dodged your tomoe he might get ippon since you fell on your back, so it's kind of risky in comp. I still used it quite a few time to sort of pull guard in judo when I felt overwhelmed standing up and it led to a few victories, but it's called a sacrifice throw for a reason.

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Isn't it considered not best practice to shower before rolling, unless necessary? I was under the impression that the skin already has some good bacteria set up as a first line of microbial defense, but showering can mess up that balance for long enough that immediately rolling after can be (marginally more) risky.

I think people complicate stuff for no reason. Do you smell bad? No? Then put some fresh Deodorant, brush your teeth, clip your nails and wear a clean gi/rolling clothes.

If you do smell bad, add a shower to that.

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Now that I'm about to start boxing I'm actually getting a bit worried - how much damage can the sport do to your brain? If I'm anxious about this sort of thing I should probably leave out sparring, but is boxing without sparring still useful?

I don't do boxing mostly because I'm scared of brain damage. I don't think getting hit in the head regularly can be good, but if you use head protection and the sparring is "light" as in people are pulling their punches a bit I don't think it should do much. But personally I'd never feel comfortable getting punched in the face multiple times a week with any sort of real power. I don't know how scientifically "correct" that worry is, but I wouldn't take chances.

Any martial art without sparring is going to be fun and get you fit, but you should not expect to be able to use the techniques you learned against a resisting opponent. I mean if you ever get in a one on one fight without weapons being fit, being able to throw a strong punch and be able to dodge stuff somewhat is certainly not going to hurt, but I'd bet my money on a guy who has been sparring for a year over someone who's been training for 10 without sparring.

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




You won't be sparring right away anyway. If they put you in the ring on day 1 (or even month 1), get out.

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It's a legit good attack, but you have to know when to use it. It's a really great newbie crusher since they tend to push on you a lot so they go flying easy. I think a lot of coach tell people to stay away because in competition if the other guy looks like he kind of may be tried to do foot sweep and dodged your tomoe he might get ippon since you fell on your back, so it's kind of risky in comp. I still used it quite a few time to sort of pull guard in judo when I felt overwhelmed standing up and it led to a few victories, but it's called a sacrifice throw for a reason.

I had that happen to me. I was tired so I stepped through the guy's stance and went for a really deep tomoe/guard pull, but the guy put his leg behind mine and they gave him a wazari-awasete-ippon.

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Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Concussions are bad for you, and getting a concussion makes it easier to get concussed again. If you get punched in the head and see stars or your ears start ringing, maybe take a break because that's a mild concussion already.

Still probably safer than football, tho.

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Now that I'm about to start boxing I'm actually getting a bit worried - how much damage can the sport do to your brain? If I'm anxious about this sort of thing I should probably leave out sparring, but is boxing without sparring still useful?

Working the bags and mitts will get you a good workout and used to the mechanics of throwing good punches and combos, but sparring hones other skill sets that you only get from practicing against a resisting opponent - proper head/body movement, defense, and knowing how to react after getting punched (as well as getting used to being punched).

There is head trauma from sparring over the long term but head shots at the weekend warrior level won't be too bad. Be smart about it to minimize the risks - wear head gear and mouth protection, as well as being aware of signs and symptoms - headaches, light headed, dizziness, etc. If you do experience signs and symptoms then take a break from sparring for a few days or even a week.

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Alright, thanks guys. The course is only going for 90 minutes a week so I'll do as you suggested and only spar occasionally with protective gear on. In the long run, is Muay Thai better in this regard or should I generally steer clear of striking arts if I'm overly worried about brain damage?

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




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Alright, thanks guys. The course is only going for 90 minutes a week so I'll do as you suggested and only spar occasionally with protective gear on. In the long run, is Muay Thai better in this regard or should I generally steer clear of striking arts if I'm overly worried about brain damage?

Pretty much all the same for striking arts. There's lots of light contact sparring you can do that isn't terribly risky. The #1 rule is just never spar without a trustworthy coach around.

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Alright, thanks guys. The course is only going for 90 minutes a week so I'll do as you suggested and only spar occasionally with protective gear on. In the long run, is Muay Thai better in this regard or should I generally steer clear of striking arts if I'm overly worried about brain damage?

Generally for most gyms the sparring should be done at 60-75% maximum especially for non-competitive teammates. There's usually a separate class time for anything greater (a sparring class or fighters only class). If you're at a gym that will allow beginners to spar at 100% maximum then consider switching gyms.

Since you're starting out, get a feel for the gym, hit the bags first and learn some punches and combos. If you like what you're doing, then think about whether you want to try sparring. I'm sure your coach can help you out at that point when you discuss it with him.

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Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

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You won't be sparring right away anyway. If they put you in the ring on day 1 (or even month 1), get out.

This. I tried boxing at a very serious gym and they wouldn't let me near the ring for a month and then it was only jabbing drills for another 2. They were very very serious about me never getting in without my my coach and someone he selected as a safe partner. I even got a very stern talking to because I snuck in for some rounds with a bigger more experienced guy I knew from my bjj gym. I could tell they kinda liked that too though, gotta have some dumb in you I guess.

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




On the other hand showing up for a teaching job with a black eye is loving awesome, so sparring is good.

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kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

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In the long run, is Muay Thai better in this regard or should I generally steer clear of striking arts if I'm overly worried about brain damage?

Sort of. Striking arts that aren't exclusively punching have fewer strikes landing to the head, but it obviously still happens.

There's an element of taking your life into your own hands -- you can develop a style that minimizes getting hit in the head and is generally effective on defense, or you can just throw leather every time you step in there.

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Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

i don't really understand the jack slack hate. Like of course sometimes people get hit reeel herd. But how interesting is that to read about? I've found his content interesting and unique. Its strangely difficult to find technical striking analysis online that isn't only "compubox showed he jabbed a lot" or "you see the centerline chi has the follow characteristics -faaaart-".

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ICHIBAHN
Feb 21, 2007


I've been reading the ufc, grappling and MA forums here for years and I can't remember any criticism of Slack. This is all strange to me. I enjoy his work.

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Oct 2, 2010


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Pretty sure that is Tomoe Nage. I was taught to only use it when you are completely knackered and have nothing else but its just so much fun.

Echoing other dissents on this throw. Very effective, should be used sparingly in Judo competition due to risk of being pinned. But outside of that its a cool and good throw and great for BJJ.

Biggest mistake is the lack of technique in execution. Tired novies use it by just falling backwards hoping their opponent will just magically roll over them like it's that Street Fighter pic you posted. In reality, the technique is more like doing a clean and jerk. Need opponent to be leaned forward, then you need to pull your hips under their center of gravity before you finish the throw with your hands. Ideally, you should also continue the motion and finish in mount.

Also, the more popular and effective (and cooler looking) variation is yoko-tomoe-nage (side circle throw) which safer and sets you up for open guard positions if your opponent defends the technique.

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Surprise T Rex
Apr 9, 2008


To be honest I'm way off being able to try that yet.

I'm struggling to do O Soto Gari with any level of consistency after only a few classes, though I'm not too frustrated, I can see that I'll get into the swing of it all eventually.

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manyak
Jan 26, 2006


Newest entry in the "does BJJ work in a street fight where theres no rules and the other person pulls your hair/scratches at your eyes etc"

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manyak
Jan 26, 2006


Also decent sacrifice throw

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May 15, 2003

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To be honest I'm way off being able to try that yet.

I'm struggling to do O Soto Gari with any level of consistency after only a few classes, though I'm not too frustrated, I can see that I'll get into the swing of it all eventually.

give yourself time. My O Soto still sucks and I've been doing this for something like 8-9 years by now.

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




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To be honest I'm way off being able to try that yet.

I'm struggling to do O Soto Gari with any level of consistency after only a few classes, though I'm not too frustrated, I can see that I'll get into the swing of it all eventually.

The one thing that new people often overlook with Osoto is body contact. Your shoulder should be pushing into Uke's shoulder, and you should be trying to grind your lapel hand as a fist on Uke's jaw, (even if you can't make it all the way there - that's just the vector). It's a super close-range throw.

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Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


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Newest entry in the "does BJJ work in a street fight where theres no rules and the other person pulls your hair/scratches at your eyes etc"

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The Armbar was a bit much.

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The Armbar was a bit much.

Did she choke her to sleep? Funny how they waited until the choke happened to (half-heartedly) try to break it.

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Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


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Did she choke her to sleep? Funny how they waited until the choke happened to (half-heartedly) try to break it.

Yep, you can see the slobber as she flips her over.

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Did she choke her to sleep? Funny how they waited until the choke happened to (half-heartedly) try to break it.

Anything but swinging for the fences in a street fight is cheating. They gotta get them standing and banging again.

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The Armbar was a bit much.

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I don't understand why you would go for an arm bar without trying to use it to end the fight ie. break it or at least threaten to break it. You're just giving up position.

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




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I don't understand why you would go for an arm bar without trying to use it to end the fight ie. break it or at least threaten to break it. You're just giving up position.

It looked to me like her opponent actually quit there and submitted and stopped fighting, and then she got on top of her and kept beating her rear end anyway.

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Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


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I don't understand why you would go for an arm bar without trying to use it to end the fight ie. break it or at least threaten to break it. You're just giving up position.

It looked like the arm hyper extended at the very least.

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Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

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It looked like the arm hyper extended at the very least.

yeah she might have broken it on the extension.

As draculino once said: "I have seen guys fight with broken arms, I never see any - body fight asleep"

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yeah she might have broken it on the extension.

As draculino once said: "I have seen guys fight with broken arms, I never see any - body fight asleep"

Yea, it's pretty much my MO to go for chokes if I get in a street fight. You never know what someone is on, but they can't continue to do anything if there's no oxygen going to their brain.

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SnatchRabbit
Feb 23, 2006


Isn't change supposed to make things different?

What's your guys take on standup sparring with takedowns, groundwork, but super light striking technique? I train at a BJJ gym and for the most part we train for straight BJJ sport and competitions, so no striking at all. However, recently we've had a few guys who are preparing for MMA fights come through so during sparring we'll start standing, w/ MMA gloves, throwing super light boxing and KB technique to work your way into a clinch. From there it's takedowns into BJJ w/ strikes on the ground. Obviously, you're just tapping the guy with your fist to let him know he's open to strikes. I find that mixing in strikes, however light, completely changes the dynamics of grappling. I guess my question is how useful is this from self-defense as well as sport/MMA/conditioning perspective? I found that I really enjoyed this type of sparring because it puts together all the things I love about striking and grappling without really having to worry about head trauma.

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What's your guys take on standup sparring with takedowns, groundwork, but super light striking technique? I train at a BJJ gym and for the most part we train for straight BJJ sport and competitions, so no striking at all. However, recently we've had a few guys who are preparing for MMA fights come through so during sparring we'll start standing, w/ MMA gloves, throwing super light boxing and KB technique to work your way into a clinch. From there it's takedowns into BJJ w/ strikes on the ground. Obviously, you're just tapping the guy with your fist to let him know he's open to strikes. I find that mixing in strikes, however light, completely changes the dynamics of grappling. I guess my question is how useful is this from self-defense as well as sport/MMA/conditioning perspective? I found that I really enjoyed this type of sparring because it puts together all the things I love about striking and grappling without really having to worry about head trauma.

Most people trying to beat you up will try to hit you, as they aren't well versed in arm locks and chokes. If anything it is more important for actual self defense than learning to defend submissions.

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Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


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I guess my question is how useful is this from self-defense as well as sport/MMA/conditioning perspective? I found that I really enjoyed this type of sparring because it puts together all the things I love about striking and grappling without really having to worry about head trauma.

Pretty useful. You can use strikes to set up armbars and americanas easy, because they have to defend shots to the face or get knocked out. On the defensive side, it shows you the positions in which they can't punch you effectively, or allows you to take advantage of if they try to punch you with out a good base.

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ICHIBAHN
Feb 21, 2007


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Anything but swinging for the fences in a street fight is cheating. They gotta get them standing and banging again.

I see this all the time in these type of videos. Punching and kicking is fine but as soon as someone gets a dominant bjj position, everyone feverishly runs in to break up the fight. hosed up.

As for training with strikes, I'd love that. It'd probably highlight how weak the bjj we learn is for self defense.

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SnatchRabbit
Feb 23, 2006


Isn't change supposed to make things different?

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As for training with strikes, I'd love that. It'd probably highlight how weak the bjj we learn is for self defense.

I mean, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it weak. I found it especially useful for top game, but I had a fairly illuminating moment when I ended up on bottom, apparently with my entire face and upper torso exposed. My partner just politely reminded me "MMA rules, dude". I had to cover up immediately, but it definitely reminds you of bad habit muscle memory.

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