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Nerobro
Nov 4, 2005

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The wankel is the only alternative engine I’d even remotely consider in an experimental.

Why's that?

I have dreams of a home made turboprop. But that's unlikely to get beyond "I made a turbocharger turbine in the garage" stage. Ever.

............. Wait. The big problem with turbines and conventional recreational use, is that turbines want to run at full throttle, or off, or else they burn tons of fuel. How about four or six small turbines, and you can turn them on "as needed" to provide the needed shaft power for a turboprop. This would allow you to run any given turbine at it's most efficient power range.

And this is why I'd go with a very conventional engine.

Wren Turbines, sells a model turboprop motor. 7.5hp, but it ends up using 2.7gph, on it's own. There's gotta be better out there.

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EvilMerlin
Apr 10, 2018



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Why's that?

I have dreams of a home made turboprop. But that's unlikely to get beyond "I made a turbocharger turbine in the garage" stage. Ever.

............. Wait. The big problem with turbines and conventional recreational use, is that turbines want to run at full throttle, or off, or else they burn tons of fuel. How about four or six small turbines, and you can turn them on "as needed" to provide the needed shaft power for a turboprop. This would allow you to run any given turbine at it's most efficient power range.

And this is why I'd go with a very conventional engine.

Wren Turbines, sells a model turboprop motor. 7.5hp, but it ends up using 2.7gph, on it's own. There's gotta be better out there.

Well its not really a model. Its for models... but its a real turboprop using their Wren 50 as a base. I had a lot of RC jet folks using these little things. Wren's are NOT cheap.

The ones from JetCat are a little cheaper.

here is a link to their turboprop:

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8 oz per/min at full power. 55lbs of thrust.

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e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

Skids. Wheelies. Jumps.


Naturally aspirated rotaries are absolute tanks of engines. Low torque that runs at high RPM which smooths out the power pulses which means a lot less stress on the reduction box. Very few moving parts on the engine itself.

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Nerobro
Nov 4, 2005

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Well its not really a model. Its for models...
That's a misunderstanding of what I said, on your part, not a misunderstanding of what it is on my part. *grins*

quote:

The ones from JetCat are a little cheaper.
*snip*
8 oz per/min at full power. 55lbs of thrust.
I just knew of wren's model off the top of my head. The trouble with all of the hobby scale (and even the smaller "real" turbines) is compression ratio. Jetcat listing thrust instead of horsepower is a problem. If you want more static thrust, you can just swing a bigger prop. You're not getting more power. Given it's also a single centrifiugal compressor, it's pretty safe to assume it's getting similar compression ratios to the Wren.

The Polish thing on the Sonex Jet has the same trouble. We need a multi-shaft turbine in the 100hp range... But that's never gonna happen.

I'd love to see something GA sized that gets 200psi in the combustion chamber, instead of 50.

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qkkl
Jul 1, 2013



I watched a youtube video about ATC and was surprised at how much static was in the communications. Why is the voice quality so low in communications between ATC and planes? Couldn't they use a digital system for crystal clear voice?

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Nerobro
Nov 4, 2005

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Analog fades out, and "keeps working" deeper into the nasty stuff than digital does. Digital is "better" right until the connection gets bad. When digital cuts out, it cuts out hard, and you can't do a darned thing about it.

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DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
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There's also the cost issue, where trying to go back and replace the comm gear on every airplane and every airport / airfield / FBO / etc. would be...large.

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e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

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I watched a youtube video about ATC and was surprised at how much static was in the communications. Why is the voice quality so low in communications between ATC and planes? Couldn't they use a digital system for crystal clear voice?

Because aviation radios started and were standardized in the mid 20th century and changing the tech to something else is very cost prohibitive for something that would bring a negligible improvement.

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CelestialScribe
Jan 16, 2008


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What actually SCARES you when you fly?

I'm terrified of something small going wrong that cascades and results in a fatal crash. I know this is so unlikely, but it's all I can focus on during flight.

Edit: I don't really care about turbulence. It's more the idea that something could go wrong that just results in us diving straight into the ground.

I've watched too many episodes of Mayday.

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e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

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It can take dozens and dozens of just the right small things going wrong before there can even remotely be an issue. There’s so much redundancy built into airliners it’s just crazy.

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Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012




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Naturally aspirated rotaries are absolute tanks of engines. Low torque that runs at high RPM which smooths out the power pulses which means a lot less stress on the reduction box. Very few moving parts on the engine itself.

Also, the iron rotors expand less when heated than the aluminum housing does, which makes the engine invulnerable to seizure from overheating

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dexter6
Sep 22, 2003


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I watched a youtube video about ATC and was surprised at how much static was in the communications. Why is the voice quality so low in communications between ATC and planes? Couldn't they use a digital system for crystal clear voice?
You’re also likely hearing an amateur recording from a scanner somewhere.

Aviation radios aren’t repeated, so if a plane is in the air at 30k feet and some lateral distance from you, it could be pretty far. So even if you’re close to the tower, you might not hear the pilot very well.

Think about the tower having a half sphere over it. That’s the sphere where you can hear the radio clearly.

Then think of the plane, it’s got the same sphere, just upside down, under it. Unless the person making the recording is in the sweet spot of spheres, someone is going to sound broken up on the recording.

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CelestialScribe
Jan 16, 2008


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It can take dozens and dozens of just the right small things going wrong before there can even remotely be an issue. There’s so much redundancy built into airliners it’s just crazy.

Oh I know. Just doesn't stop the fear.

It's pretty bad. I've been just about to get on a plane before, when I just stop and opt to drive 18 hours instead.

Which is crazy, because it's so much more dangerous. But I feel safer. The brain is weird.

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e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

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You’re also likely hearing an amateur recording from a scanner somewhere.

Aviation radios aren’t repeated, so if a plane is in the air at 30k feet and some lateral distance from you, it could be pretty far. So even if you’re close to the tower, you might not hear the pilot very well.

Think about the tower having a half sphere over it. That’s the sphere where you can hear the radio clearly.

Then think of the plane, it’s got the same sphere, just upside down, under it. Unless the person making the recording is in the sweet spot of spheres, someone is going to sound broken up on the recording.

VHF radios in aircraft are also line of sight.

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Also, the iron rotors expand less when heated than the aluminum housing does, which makes the engine invulnerable to seizure from overheating

They really are well suited to aviation, it’s a shame no one really makes any real bolt on kit for them.

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rldmoto
Oct 17, 2011



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Nice.

The Kitfoxes around here for sale (built) have all had some issue or another. With kit-builts I'm more than a bit cautious when buying something someone else did. Yeah I got the build logs (ya' kinda have to), and all that stuff, but usually I end up finding bad welds, bad glue joints or something.

So enough was enough and I bought an un-started kit.

Important thing to remember is 80% of ALL home built serious incidents are engine related. And almost 40% of them are from folks sticking unrated engines in the airframe. Luckily yours won't have this issue with the Titan. And goodness that RoC is amazing...

Using an alternative engine is definitely in line with the E in EAA, and I don't see anything wrong with it. I do see something wrong with using a one off engine conversion and sticking your family in the plane. There are, however, some pretty decent conversions out there. Some of the automotive engines tested in airboats (mom fucks teen boy) seem promising. Others, like the Viking engines (hot naked male pics), I'd advise everyone in the world to stay away from at all costs. The biggest advantage to the modern automotive conversions are the mass production of parts, FADEC, and fuel injection. Aircraft engine technology just hasn't moved appreciably forward in the last 50 years.

The real issue with alternative engines is that you are legitimately becoming a test pilot, and you are acting as R&D for these companies when you mount their engines to your airplane. They can't afford to make and test FWF kits for every airframe, and even the AeroMomentum guys say they are looking for "beta testers" for engine/airplane combos. If I'm your test pilot, you're gonna pay me for it.

For what it's worth, my father's RV6 is powered by a Lycoming O-360, and one of the exhaust stacks broke off mid flight a couple days ago. Just because something comes from an "approved" engine factory doesn't mean you will never have problems... but you all know that.

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Nerobro
Nov 4, 2005

Rider now with 100% more titanium!


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Also, the iron rotors expand less when heated than the aluminum housing does, which makes the engine invulnerable to seizure from overheating

I'd never even considered that. And given the limited rpm range that aircraft engines usually run in, you could tune the intake and exhaust pretty tightly. I wonder if you can get a better BSFC than they do on those 1940's wonders we find on most GA planes....

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Oh I know. Just doesn't stop the fear.

It's pretty bad. I've been just about to get on a plane before, when I just stop and opt to drive 18 hours instead.

Which is crazy, because it's so much more dangerous. But I feel safer. The brain is weird.

The place to really go for this, is a counselor of some sort. Psychologist, Psychiatrist. It's likely free through your insurance. If I have my bearings stragith, you're going to be doing some CBT to get this spiral of thought out of your head. what's your porn name

Here, you're talking to a bunch of people who think it's fun to strap ourselves into tin cans and go really high in the air.

You feel safer in a car because you feel in control. On some level at least. That little thing, lets people do some really stupid stuff day in and day out. EG: Standing on the tops of ladders, taking showers...

But to add to the conversation. You can build an airplane that needs everything working to fly right. But those are rare. And those do crash pretty frequently. Absolutely nothing that you'll set foot on, requires everything working, they'll even fly pretty well with a lot of things ~not~ working. Every airliner is essentially naturally stable. But.. I don't think logic is the fix here.

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The Kitfoxes around here for sale (built) have all had some issue or another. With kit-builts I'm more than a bit cautious when buying something someone else did. Yeah I got the build logs (ya' kinda have to), and all that stuff, but usually I end up finding bad welds, bad glue joints or something.

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EvilMerlin
Apr 10, 2018



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I'm terrified of something small going wrong that cascades and results in a fatal crash. I know this is so unlikely, but it's all I can focus on during flight.

Edit: I don't really care about turbulence. It's more the idea that something could go wrong that just results in us diving straight into the ground.

I've watched too many episodes of Mayday.

I hope you don't drive a car or ride a bike then!

Yeah I know you can hear it a million times that both are far more dangerous than riding in a plane, especially commercially... But its the truth...

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EvilMerlin
Apr 10, 2018




Looks like he had a close encounter with the instrument panel... ouch.

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EvilMerlin
Apr 10, 2018



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Using an alternative engine is definitely in line with the E in EAA, and I don't see anything wrong with it. I do see something wrong with using a one off engine conversion and sticking your family in the plane. There are, however, some pretty decent conversions out there. Some of the automotive engines tested in airboats (jessica alba full sex) seem promising. Others, like the Viking engines (rachel starr porno star), I'd advise everyone in the world to stay away from at all costs. The biggest advantage to the modern automotive conversions are the mass production of parts, FADEC, and fuel injection. Aircraft engine technology just hasn't moved appreciably forward in the last 50 years.


Yeah but the whole point is idiots (yes, they are) push it too far. They think sticking a 150HP twin with turbos on a light aluminum pipe frame is a good thing. Or a doable thing... they don't think.



As for engine technology... they really can't. The amount of regulation around it simply makes it nearly impossible unless you are massive conglomerate to do much of anything inside the GA world.

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e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

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I'd never even considered that. And given the limited rpm range that aircraft engines usually run in, you could tune the intake and exhaust pretty tightly. I wonder if you can get a better BSFC than they do on those 1940's wonders we find on most GA planes....
Yeah they’re pretty efficient.

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Also the size/power/weight is often better, and electronic engine control.

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Nerobro
Nov 4, 2005

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As for engine technology... they really can't. The amount of regulation around it simply makes it nearly impossible unless you are massive conglomerate to do much of anything inside the GA world.

It's been so long, that even getting an airframe certified is a problem. Knowing how to get Part 23 done, is almost a lost art.

I wonder what needs to be done about engines. Better BSFC would provide better empty weights. Better range. Less cooling drag. But.. we can't get there as the market is just to small.

Which leads to the "how do we make the market bigger?" And.... that's a spiral that goes nowhere fun, very quickly.

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Nerobro
Nov 4, 2005

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Yeah they’re pretty efficient.

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Also the size/power/weight is often better, and electronic engine control.

That website makes my eyes bleed. Screaming websties always make me feel, uncomfortable. It feels like a free energy website.

Critisims aside. They're looking at ~290g/kw/hr. For a race engine, tuned for fuel economy. (This number isn't going to be the same for the conventional motors...) 0.7489 gram per cubic centimeter. tha's 217cc's per hour. 3875.7 cc's a gallon. Or .056 gph/hp

O-320: best vagina in porn 0.077 gallons per hour, per horsepower. 1.9 liter saturn engine, is at .068 gallons per hour per horsepower.

Mazda Race tuned Wankel: .056gph/hp
O-320 : .077gph/hp
Saturn 1.9l : .068gph/hp

While that wankel is impressive, it's not as good as it gets.

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I'd love to see what numbers the modern mazda inline 4's get. Those jumpped like 30% in fuel economy between 2010 and 2014...

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CelestialScribe
Jan 16, 2008


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That website makes my eyes bleed. Screaming websties always make me feel, uncomfortable. It feels like a free energy website.

Critisims aside. They're looking at ~290g/kw/hr. For a race engine, tuned for fuel economy. (This number isn't going to be the same for the conventional motors...) 0.7489 gram per cubic centimeter. tha's 217cc's per hour. 3875.7 cc's a gallon. Or .056 gph/hp

O-320: pussy and clit pictures 0.077 gallons per hour, per horsepower. 1.9 liter saturn engine, is at .068 gallons per hour per horsepower.

Mazda Race tuned Wankel: .056gph/hp
O-320 : .077gph/hp
Saturn 1.9l : .068gph/hp

While that wankel is impressive, it's not as good as it gets.

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I'd love to see what numbers the modern mazda inline 4's get. Those jumpped like 30% in fuel economy between 2010 and 2014...

Oh for sure there’s more efficient out there, but then you’re back at the problem of running a piston car engine not designed to run at full throttle for hours on end.

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EvilMerlin
Apr 10, 2018



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It's been so long, that even getting an airframe certified is a problem. Knowing how to get Part 23 done, is almost a lost art.

I wonder what needs to be done about engines. Better BSFC would provide better empty weights. Better range. Less cooling drag. But.. we can't get there as the market is just to small.

Which leads to the "how do we make the market bigger?" And.... that's a spiral that goes nowhere fun, very quickly.

Yep. All of this.

Lets not even mention the crazy pricing. Cessna was charging what, 150k for the 160 and made a whole 192 of them? Or 300k for a loving 172? In 1956 they were 8700 (or 81k in 2018 dollars).


GA is mostly dead. When I started flying there were literally 200 air-frames on tie-downs and hangared at KBVY. Now... now there are less than 8 tied down and probably 30 or so hangared.

Its a bloody shame.

I don't know about where you are but to insure an aircraft in MA is loving rough.

Yeah, I know. I'm babbling. Why? Because its sad to see one of the things I love slowly dying.

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Nerobro
Nov 4, 2005

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the problem of running a piston car engine not designed to run at full throttle for hours on end.

People keep saying that. And it's just not true. At least, it's not a thing you can say with that wide of a paintbrush. The limitation has almost always been cooling. Usually cylinder head, but sometimes piston. No modern (anything designed and built since say.. 1985..) engine is limited by that anymore.

Airplane engines aren't designed to run a full throttle for hours on end. :-) Even with the throttle wide open, once you start climbing, you get less and less effective throttle. At cruise altitude, even a WOT, you're only getting something like 70--80% of full throttle power. (Assuming GA..) That's why you lean out the engine as you go up.

It's a fun subject to mess around with.

The big thing that airplane engines do better than automotive engines, is that their accessory drives tend to be contained, and bathed in oil. Also dual ignitions.

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MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


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You’re also likely hearing an amateur recording from a scanner somewhere.

Aviation radios aren’t repeated, so if a plane is in the air at 30k feet and some lateral distance from you, it could be pretty far. So even if you’re close to the tower, you might not hear the pilot very well.

Think about the tower having a half sphere over it. That’s the sphere where you can hear the radio clearly.

Then think of the plane, it’s got the same sphere, just upside down, under it. Unless the person making the recording is in the sweet spot of spheres, someone is going to sound broken up on the recording.

Centers can (and frequently do) have frequency cross-coupling turned on, which as an example repeats frequency A onto frequency B and vice-versa. Sometimes these freqs aren’t co-located, which effectively repeats your transmissions over a wider area. This is mostly done when sectors are combined, so that aircraft transmitting can hear each other, and reduce stepping all over each other.

VHF comm radios suck, and can often sound that bad when the atmosphere is feeling froggy. Datacomm cant come fast enough.

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EvilMerlin
Apr 10, 2018



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People keep saying that. And it's just not true. At least, it's not a thing you can say with that wide of a paintbrush. The limitation has almost always been cooling. Usually cylinder head, but sometimes piston. No modern (anything designed and built since say.. 1985..) engine is limited by that anymore.

Airplane engines aren't designed to run a full throttle for hours on end. :-) Even with the throttle wide open, once you start climbing, you get less and less effective throttle. At cruise altitude, even a WOT, you're only getting something like 70--80% of full throttle power. (Assuming GA..) That's why you lean out the engine as you go up.

It's a fun subject to mess around with.

The big thing that airplane engines do better than automotive engines, is that their accessory drives tend to be contained, and bathed in oil. Also dual ignitions.

lets not forget required routine maintenance.

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Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012




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Oh for sure there’s more efficient out there, but then you’re back at the problem of running a piston car engine not designed to run at full throttle for hours on end.

Also it strikes me that rotary engines are significantly smaller and lighter than a piston engine of equivalent power, which is not really a huge deal in a car, but obviously is very appealing in a plane. A stock 13B weighs like 250lb and makes 180hp+; that's 30 more horsepower but comparable weight to an O-320, and a lot better ratio than most car motors.

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MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


Auto engines almost always need a reduction gearbox to bring the prop speed down, which in my opinion shoots all of their advantages right in the face. Particularly if you're talking about a one-off experimental installation. Good reduction gearboxes on a weight budget are certainly doable, but whole engineering firms fight long battles with that problem and frequently lose. I have zero faith that jim-bob in his garage is going to have a long-term-reliable gearbox in front of his Mazda rotary in his RV-6.

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EvilMerlin
Apr 10, 2018



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Auto engines almost always need a reduction gearbox to bring the prop speed down, which in my opinion shoots all of their advantages right in the face. Particularly if you're talking about a one-off experimental installation. Good reduction gearboxes on a weight budget are certainly doable, but whole engineering firms fight long battles with that problem and frequently lose. I have zero faith that jim-bob in his garage is going to have a long-term-reliable gearbox in front of his Mazda rotary in his RV-6.

This.

And its the same issue for those of us that build large scale RC planes too. People try to go cheap for the motor and end up buying a weed wacker/chainsaw/small moped engine off of Ebay or something and then build a gear reduction system and don't understand why half way thru it's first flight it snaps the prop and eats the ground...

I mean seriously that is just RC planes.

And people want to risk it by doing it in a REAL plane?

Look I get it, I don't want to spend 10k plus for a motor for my 15 thousand dollar kit plane either, but I KNOW I have to do the job right or I'm either going to die or get seriously hurt. Why the gently caress skimp. Why the gently caress mess with it. And no, just because you can isn't an answer. Most people (I'm willing to bet 99% of the people) building a kit plane are not aeronautical engineers, and if they are probably are not whole airframe and powerplant engineers. This isn't like stuffing a short block V8 in your loving Honduh CRV.

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Nerobro
Nov 4, 2005

Rider now with 100% more titanium!


And, now we are on the subject of fun aero conversions.

Buick 215's, direct driving the prop.
VW's, in both full and half form.
Corvair engines.

Running a modern chevy V8 at "prop" rpms ~also~ makes sense.

None of which need gearboxes. :-)

When it comes to gearboxes, smart people use belts. As there's almost no problems with resonance, and you're not ruining your oil when the gearbox dies.

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EvilMerlin
Apr 10, 2018



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And, now we are on the subject of fun aero conversions.

Buick 215's, direct driving the prop.
VW's, in both full and half form.
Corvair engines.

Running a modern chevy V8 at "prop" rpms ~also~ makes sense.

None of which need gearboxes. :-)

When it comes to gearboxes, smart people use belts. As there's almost no problems with resonance, and you're not ruining your oil when the gearbox dies.

I do see a lot of ultralights and LSA's experimentals using the VW engines....

But no experience with the 215's or Corvairs.

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