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SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007



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Please elaborate. I'm interested.

The short version is that Watchmen is different from the comic because it is ‘about’ the adaptation of comics to film.

Consider the unfairly-maligned Psycho remake that made countless minuscule (and not-so-minuscule) changes that added up to an entirely different film. Watchmen is even more extreme because it is translating written dialogue into audio, putting in music where the comic had only transcribed lyrics, etc.

Where the comic’s Comedian is a variation of the First Blood ‘nam vet as victim archetype, a killer who cries on the inside, J.D. Morgan portrays the Comedian as a maudlin fake - a satire of today’s Hurt Locker type protagonists who boo-hoo over the atrocities they had to commit. It’s a complete 180.

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McCloud
Oct 27, 2005



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Because, again, both version of Watchmen sort of circle around the same sentiment: a superhero existing in a practical reality would be horrifying and have horrifying repercussions. The difference between both versions is how they flip that analysis back onto their native mediums.

This is kind of a theme that's continued in MoS and BvS, that superheroes are in actuality a terrifying concept. It's all fun when Superman punches someone through a building in a comic book or the animated series, but when it's realistically portrayed a lot of fans suddenly didn't find their disaster porn "fun" anymore.

Also that they irrevocably alter the course of history just by existing. People losing their minds over the existence of Superman is the most spot on thing in those movies.

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RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.


quote:

Lastly, Snyder's Watchmen is one of the few examples I can cite for the "Gritty Turtles" problem. Everybody wants a "Gritty" Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie. "Just like the comics." Do you know what that would be like it? It would be horrifying. The tonal dissonance between what those comics used to be and what pop culture made the characters is separated by a grand canyon of difference. Do you really think it would be "cool" to see Michelangelo crack about pizza while shoving the shaft of his nunchucks through someone's eye? No, it wouldn't. And we see that in Watchmen in the scene where Nite Owl and Silk Spectre get jumped by the Top Knots in the alley after having coffee. The entire scene is basically Snyder saying, "you want it? Okay, buddy." So we get this scene of our "heroes" shoving peoples noses up in into their brains and graphically shattering limbs. Choreographed "cool" violence is a staple of superhero movies, but they almost never show the actual after effects of what is being done to the bodies involved. Snyder just lets the camera stay on the results.

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything here but this brings up something I've been thinking about : It's always weird to me how people say that stuff like the Ultra 9/11 that is Man of Steel or the ultraviolence in Watchmen is traumatic or missing the point or this and that as opposed to what it actually is: super cool and badass. Zod punching Superman through at least three 9/11s while Superman attempts to stop it by punching him into asynchronous orbit and accidentally causing a satellite rain leading to like four more 9/11s? That's awesome. The Kryptonians loving up the military like they were my XCOM rookies missing every shot against the mutons for like the fifth campaign in a row? That owns. The opening of Beavis where Bruce Wayne watches the seven 9/11s happen and is like "holy poo poo, gently caress, what the hell, is that my satellite god drat it"? Best part of the film!

Who are these weenies who hate that stuff and want less of it? I want more things smashed to bits and hosed up and exploding in my punchmans!

quote:

Veidt's Schumacher-era costume directly highlights his sexual ambiguity with the nipples and heavily anatomized muscle molding.

This is also a reference to ancient armors which also did exactly that.

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Sep 14, 2007

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Where the comic’s Comedian is a variation of the First Blood ‘nam vet as victim archetype, a killer who cries on the inside, J.D. Morgan portrays the Comedian as a maudlin fake - a satire of today’s Hurt Locker type protagonists who boo-hoo over the atrocities they had to commit. It’s a complete 180.

I wanna say this is ahead of its time but really, since Vietnam, more or less all American war movies are about how bad individual American soldiers are traumatized by loving up someone else's country for no reason.

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Darko
Dec 23, 2004



I'd argue that TMNT1 was really close to the early comics at the time. Having them curse for the first time was really jarring for us as kids, and seeing that violence had repercussions was big then. It was 2 on that softened them. I mean, half of the movie was based on a legitimately injured Raph.

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Goffer
Apr 4, 2007
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I only recently read Watchmen and Rorschach and Manhattan ended up being the stars to me because of their backstory. Rorschach is utterly unlikable or much of the comic but the stuff with him in prison and with the therapist is so fuckin' good. Anybody who saw this pitiable, broken shell of a man as a force for evil is coming from a very different place than me.

And the fact the comic ends with him being murdered for trying to do the right thing probably endears him to a lot of folks, including myself. I was totally on his side in that matter.

When I read the comic I always pictured him one step away from being Cletus Cassidy. Apart from the same looks and aesthetic, the way they tell his backstory (including the pink colour palette) matches closely as well. Happy to murder, a general distain for humanity, both psychopaths. Although it’s more likely that they based the Carnage host off him, as the Watchmen came out a few years before the symbiote stuff.

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Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005




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When I read the comic I always pictured him one step away from being Cletus Cassidy. Apart from the same looks and aesthetic, the way they tell his backstory (including the pink colour palette) matches closely as well. Happy to murder, a general distain for humanity, both psychopaths. Although it’s more likely that they based the Carnage host off him, as the Watchmen came out a few years before the symbiote stuff.

I don't think Rorschach is a psychopath and I don't think he's anywhere near Cletus Cassidy.

But I do like how appropriate it is that people have very different readings of the character.

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Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
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I'd argue that TMNT1 was really close to the early comics at the time. Having them curse for the first time was really jarring for us as kids, and seeing that violence had repercussions was big then. It was 2 on that softened them. I mean, half of the movie was based on a legitimately injured Raph.

It adds and removes a lot of stuff but yeah tonally and origin-wise the first movie is waaaay more of an adaptation of the first comic where they try to kill Shredder than of anything in the cartoon even if it has reporter April instead of mechanic/tech April.

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Dec 10, 2008


I think Alan Moore has said he wishes he hadn't made Rorschach so badass because the kids love him. Which is true as far as it goes, he is badass, body odor or no.

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NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



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When I read the comic I always pictured him one step away from being Cletus Cassidy. Apart from the same looks and aesthetic, the way they tell his backstory (including the pink colour palette) matches closely as well. Happy to murder, a general distain for humanity, both psychopaths. Although it’s more likely that they based the Carnage host off him, as the Watchmen came out a few years before the symbiote stuff.

Except Rorschach isn't a psycho murderer. He's not even Ennis Punisher levels "of evil must be punished." I remember very pointedly that he leaves that one poor old ex-villain alone (Was it Moloch?) when he could have easily killed him.

Rorschach has a rigid, perhaps warped sense of justice but in terms of characters in fiction - and real life - who also fit that category, he's relatively tame. And the backstory, both the parts with his mom and the abducted child, just serve to show he wasn't born this way. He's a victim and a product of his environment no different than Manhattan.

Ozy is the true sociopath of the work. With slightly different motivations he'd be using that tremendous intellect of his to trick women into his van to take them back to his torture cave.

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SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007



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I wanna say this is ahead of its time but really, since Vietnam, more or less all American war movies are about how bad individual American soldiers are traumatized by loving up someone else's country for no reason.

It’s still extremely rare to criticize this as explicitly as Snyder does: “I've made myself feel every death... see every innocent face I've murdered to save humanity.”

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porfiria
Dec 10, 2008


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It’s still extremely rare to criticize this as explicitly as Snyder does: “I've made myself feel every death... see every innocent face I've murdered to save humanity.”

Uh, Alan Moore I guess.

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Jan 16, 2005




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Because, again, both version of Watchmen sort of circle around the same sentiment: a superhero existing in a practical reality would be horrifying and have horrifying repercussions. The difference between both versions is how they flip that analysis back onto their native mediums.

This extends to Doctor Manhattan's powers, which are hideously violent in the film version. He girl playing guitar naked could painlessly disintegrate people but his detachment from humanity, his perspective that there's little difference between the matter composing the living and the dead, means he just doesn't give a gently caress and pops dudes like giant 80s blood squibs. It makes the Comedian's reaction to his indifference in Vietnam all the more unsettling when it bears out.

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SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007



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Uh, Alan Moore I guess.

The quote in the comic is different; Ozymandias is presented there as simply arrogant and pretentious, whereas the character in the film actually does feel bad.

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Dec 10, 2008


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The quote in the comic is different; Ozymandias is presented there as simply arrogant and pretentious, whereas the character in the film actually does feel bad.

It's pretty clear he's actually troubled in the comic because he starts talking about his dreams and stuff. In the movie who knows because Matthew Goode is a weirdo.

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Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

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I've been following that AVClub group of articles since it started and I was looking forward to what he might say about Synder... until I think about two pieces before Watchmen where he dropped some kind of typical 'lol Snyder right??' comment.

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Apr 3, 2010



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I've been following that AVClub group of articles since it started and I was looking forward to what he might say about Synder... until I think about two pieces before Watchmen where he dropped some kind of typical 'lol Snyder right??' comment.

What were the other articles about? Reviews of all his movies or something?


The AVClub did a nice overview of BvS and Dark Knight Returns IMO. I liked that article. It's about the only thing I've read from them, though.


And speaking of all of Snyder's movies, I really gotta see Sucker Punch to know why it is so reviled. I've come to not rust the Internet's opinion of Zack Snyder.

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Corrosion
May 28, 2008



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It's pretty clear he's actually troubled in the comic because he starts talking about his dreams and stuff. In the movie who knows because Matthew Goode is a weirdo.

I think it works, mostly because the guy is trying to justify mass murder as the CEO God.

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McCloud
Oct 27, 2005



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And speaking of all of Snyder's movies, I really gotta see Sucker Punch to know why it is so reviled. I've come to not rust the Internet's opinion of Zack Snyder.

Please do, and let us know what you think about it! I'd like to read a fresh take on it

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Oct 29, 2011


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I've been following that AVClub group of articles since it started and I was looking forward to what he might say about Synder... until I think about two pieces before Watchmen where he dropped some kind of typical 'lol Snyder right??' comment.

naked photo of cassie is exactly what you'd expect from a guy who sees Rorschach as a "force for evil".


quote:

“Was that racist, or did it just seem racist?” That was the basic idea of the conversation that my friends and I had as we left the movie theater in the spring of 2007.

quote:

300 opens on a scene that literally glorifies fascism. The first thing we see is a chasm full of baby skulls, the remains of the infants who were deemed unfit.

quote:

This sort of bullshit did help establish a world where Donald Trump could be elected president, and it deserves to be remembered for that. It’s an influential movie in all the wrong possible ways. It’s our Birth Of A Nation.

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Crimpolioni
Mar 9, 2014



"300 opens on a scene that literally glorifies fascism. The first thing we see is a chasm full of baby skulls, the remains of the infants who were deemed unfit."


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You know what,you guys have loving done it,i’m going to watch watchmen.I don’t think i gave it a fair go the first time,i only watched 5 minutes and turned it off.

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Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

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You know what,you guys have loving done it,i’m going to watch watchmen.I don’t think i gave it a fair go the first time,i only watched 5 minutes and turned it off.

Who watches Watchmen? You do!

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NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



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Please do, and let us know what you think about it! I'd like to read a fresh take on it

i appreciate the interest! Thanks. I can't promise any great insights, though. I'm just a dude.


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"300 opens on a scene that literally glorifies fascism. The first thing we see is a chasm full of baby skulls, the remains of the infants who were deemed unfit."


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After being told repeatedly that Snyder is a Randroid and he wrote Superman as an Objectivist, I have given up all hope that Snyder haters understand logic or reason at all.

Like, you hate his movies? Cool! I don't care. That's just like, your opinion, man. Saying Man of Steel is an Objectivist film is not an opinion, though. That's a statement of fact and can be as easily disproved as saying Man of Steel was a mid-90s romcom.

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Darko
Dec 23, 2004



This is a guy, who, if the Internet were like this in the 90s, would have said that Starship Troopers glorified facism and totally didn't understand the book (or probably did say that on AOL message boards)

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SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007



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It's pretty clear he's actually troubled in the comic because he starts talking about his dreams and stuff. In the movie who knows because Matthew Goode is a weirdo.

Compare the quotes:

"I know people think me callous, but I've made myself feel every death. By day, I imagine endless faces. By night... Well, I dream, about swimming towards a hideous... No. Never mind. It isn't significant. What’s significant is that I know. I know I’ve struggled across the backs of murdered innocents to save humanity... But someone had to take the weight of that awful, necessary crime.”

versus

“I’ve made myself feel every death... see every innocent face I've murdered to save humanity. You understand, don't you?”

There are numerous little differences. For example: in the comic, Ozy imagines the faces as a metaphorical abstraction. In the film he is more concrete and specific: “every face” versus “endless faces.”

But the biggest difference is the removal of the “never mind. It isn’t significant.” In the book, Ozy specifically says that his feelings bubble butt black teen don’t matter. The film is, again, a 180.

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Oct 27, 2005



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You know what,you guys have loving done it,i’m going to watch watchmen.I don’t think i gave it a fair go the first time,i only watched 5 minutes and turned it off.

Another victim to the snyder conspiracy


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i appreciate the interest! Thanks. I can't promise any great insights, though. I'm just a dude.


That's even better to be honest. I kinda just want the opinion of a fresh pair of unbiased eyes, as I'm a bit biased, and not sure if that bias influences how I read the movie.

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Compare the quotes:

"I know people think me callous, but I've made myself feel every death. By day, I imagine endless faces. By night... Well, I dream, about swimming towards a hideous... No. Never mind. It isn't significant. What’s significant is that I know. I know I’ve struggled across the backs of murdered innocents to save humanity... But someone had to take the weight of that awful, necessary crime.”

versus

“I’ve made myself feel every death... see every innocent face I've murdered to save humanity. You understand, don't you?”

There are numerous little differences. For example: in the comic, Ozy imagines the faces as a metaphorical abstraction. In the film he is more concrete and specific: “every face” versus “endless faces.”

But the biggest difference is the removal of the “never mind. It isn’t significant.” In the book, Ozy specifically says that his feelings naked blonde having sex don’t matter. The film is, again, a 180.


So what you're saying is that Ozy was the original Thanos, only better written?

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Mar 26, 2005




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:
"I know people think me callous, but I've made myself feel every death. By day, I imagine endless faces. By night... Well, I dream, about swimming towards a hideous... No. Never mind. It isn't significant. What’s significant is that I know. I know I’ve struggled across the backs of murdered innocents to save humanity... But someone had to take the weight of that awful, necessary crime.”

I love the implication that The Black Freighter is Veidt's dream.

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So what you're saying is that Ozy was the original Thanos, only better written?

I never saw Infinity War, but Ozy's motivation is always self-aggrandizement. You could find a good depiction of Thanos in the ultra rad 90s Silver Surfer cartoon tho.

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