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Caufman
May 7, 2007



No Muslim worships Muhammad, but that's a nuanced distinction you can only appreciate with good faith.

Muhammad's story is complicated, and cannot be under-characterized by "He went to war and married a child bride, therefore he is a murderer and a pedophile." The people who went to war with Muhammad were not peace-loving people. The reason for Muhammad's unseemly marriages was not lust.

Pre-Islamic Arabia was a more barbarous, lawless place before Muhammad with fewer protections for slaves, women, and children. He began the long process of changing a tribal, pre-written law society into an organized and more compassionate society. That never happens over night any where, so decent people in their glass houses do not start by throwing stones. I am not a Muslim and haven't read the message he transcribed, but even I can see that Islamophobes are unwitting allies of political Islamists since both believe in a reactionary interpretation of Islam.

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Hey dude, people dont worship those guys, base their lives around them, or think they they were the living will of their god. Stop using false equivicocies and "b-but they did it too "

Its not an interesting thread, its a lillywhite westerner adopting a hateful religion and then trying to halfassedly justify its roots of murder and hate because it gives them ~spritual guidance ~

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No Muslim worships Muhammad, but that's a nuanced distinction you can only appreciate with good faith.

From my perspective, it only seems to not be worship because Muslims say it isn't. I see Muslims treating Muhammad like Christians treat Jesus. I recall a Muslim on the Big Questions talking about defending the honour of his prophet, when somebody made the accusation of Muhammad being a paedophile.

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Apr 29, 2007

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Not an answer to any question, but this is the last sermon of Moinuddin Chishti of the Chishti order. Reading this is what made me start studying Chishti thought in particular after doing a more generalized trawling of Sufi classics like Rumi and Shams.

I found this very beautiful, thanks for posting it.

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Caufman
May 7, 2007



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From my perspective, it only seems to not be worship because Muslims say it isn't.

Sure, reverence and worship may not look all that different from the outside. But to grasp the perspective of the other person, there's no way to get around appreciating how clothed and nude pics they understand and practice reverence versus worship.

For your own convenience, you can assume a Catholic worships Mary and a Jehovah's Witness worships Jesus. But you will never understand their perspective better by concluding there.

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Tendai
Mar 16, 2007

"When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."



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So in other words you don't have an answer, and you don't have an explanation for why you chose Islam, a religion that hates your own gender and forces them to physically cover themselves up because it treats them as sub human. You're just a white bread yuppie who wanted a spiritual answer that was nice and close to home, but had that exotic twist to it... so you chose to worship a pedophile warlord. Okay, thanks for the AMA.
Well for one, Muslims don't worship Mohammad, so you're going on some reeeal wrong information there. If that's what you think, I suggest maybe starting with a Wikipedia article before you start questioning people about their own views. I laid out my points of view as clearly as possible and what I think, you're digging for something to suit your views and I'm not playing into it, at least not while you can't be somewhat civil.

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I mean, it's OK to critique Islam but it's pretty weird to obsess about Mohammed. News flash: tonnes of historical figures you know and love killed hundreds/thousands/millions and boned children as a matter of course. What does it matter now? The religion has transformed significantly since that time, and one person does not characterise an idea in any case.

People react badly because you’re coming into a thread with interesting potential and making GBS threads it up with your retarded ‘gotcha’ questions. There are many problematic/objectionable things with Islam from a Western liberal perspective, but it’s a loving massive ship and by no means monolithic. It is also an incredibly nuanced and complex subject, with a lot of relevance for the modern world.

If you don’t have any good faith questions to ask, don’t bother posting.
There are a lot of problems with Islam today, and one of the problems is reconciling past practices with what we now know to be healthy for human beings mentally and physically. Changing those views is hard, and slow, and painful - I get as much pushback from orthodox Muslims as I do from any non-Muslims, because a lot of people don't even recognize a naked girls girls girls need for change, or they just don't want to think about it. But it's happening. The fact that there sex with sexy girls is a pretty visible movement for progressive Islam now is a pretty big change from say, 2000. But like you said, it isn't black and white. And there's a whole lot of cultural baggage that goes with it on all sides.

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Can you talk a little about Sufism and how that works with all the different schools? I'm reading some books about Central Asian history and the different lineages of Sufi teachers are a big deal to everyone, including the occasional blood feud. I'm kind of wondering if it's similar today or if you can just practice a generic Sufism without anyone caring.
Oh man. This is a big topic, and one of those things where the answer is going to depend on who you talk to in some senses. I think my views more or less fit with the consensus on this, but I've done most of my study of Sufi thought through reading and not direct interaction since I haven't lived near any kind of practicing Sufi group.

At the core of it, Sufi practices are focused on the idea that while the ultimate closeness to Allah doesn't come until we die, it's still possible to draw closer to Him in life, by refining the inner self to a state of fitra. I'm really not sure how to best translate that word, it can mean "common sense" or "instinct." It's sort of the most pure form of human nature, the most pure form of what it is to be a person. In turn, once a person reaches that state of inner pureness of being, they are thought to be motivated only by ishq - love, particularly of Allah and His creation - and have essentially brought themselves as close to Allah as a living person can.

Different tariqa (schools) have different ways of doing this. Most people have heard of the Whirling Dervishes. They're the Mevlevi order, founded by Rumi, whose poetry a lot of people have read. The work by he and Shams was one of the first things that drew me into studying Sufi thought, this particular piece of poetry by Rumi has always evoked in me a sense of deep contentment that I equate with being even just slightly nearer to Allah through study and prayer:

quote:

A moment of happiness,
you and I sitting on the verandah,
apparently two, but one in soul, you and I.
We feel the flowing water of life here,
you and I, with the garden's beauty
and the birds singing.
The stars will be watching us,
and we will show them
what it is to be a thin crescent moon.
You and I unselfed, will be together,
indifferent to idle speculation, you and I.
The parrots of heaven will be cracking sugar
as we laugh together, you and I.
In one form upon this earth,
and in another form in a timeless sweet land.

Other schools are the Chishti which I mentioned, then there's the Bektashi and a whole lot of others that have really different views all around. It's something that stretches across ideological differences in Islam; Sufi thought (albeit not all of the interpretations) is supported by the stricter Wahhab groups, for example. It's just a different way of trying to get nearer to Allah, one that's still deeply entwined with Islam as a whole - as liberal as I am, I would still probably draw the line and say you can't claim to be a practicing Sufi without being a practicing Muslim. They're too close together.

I think it would be hard to have any kind of generic idea of Sufism just because between the tariqa there are such different practices and ideas. There's a core, fundamental goal, but the ways of doing it will be so different that there's not really one "everyone does this," that I know of. Even the types of meditation will vary. I see some generic "Sufi" stuff online but it's almost always struck me as the same kind of "I'm a Kabbalist but not Jewish" sort of thing, where I don't get how you can separate them.

If you want to know more about it in general I really do recommend hot girls sex pic Mystical Dimensions of Islam by Annemarie Schimmel. It's a really good introduction in terms of historical context.

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From my perspective, it only seems to not be worship because Muslims say it isn't. I see Muslims treating Muhammad like Christians treat Jesus. I recall a Muslim on the Big Questions talking about defending the honour of his prophet, when somebody made the accusation of Muhammad being a paedophile.
That is true, there are reactionaries, and unfortunately they're more numerous and verbal, particularly online. It's made pretty clear all over in the Quran that the only thing worthy of worship is Allah; the Quran itself comes from Allah with Mohammad being more or less the intermediary to communicate it. People definitely swing too far towards emulating a life that was lived 1500 years ago, however, which is one of the big splits between conservative and progressive Islam.

Edit: Found the quote I was looking for, from 3:144, that specifically talks about how Mohammad was merely the messenger, not the divine object:

quote:

Muhammad is only a Messenger and he has been preceded by other Messengers. If he were to die or be killed, would you turn on your heels? Those who turn on their heels do not harm Allah in any way. Allah will recompense the thankful.

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I found this very beautiful, thanks for posting it.
You're welcome! Chisht scholars are generally pretty chill and all about doing good and not being lovely about it.

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They don't worship him, they just revere him as the lead prophet, and brutally murder anyone they can who slanders his name or draws a picture of him. That sounds exactly like someone treating him as revered scholar and not, say, an object of worship. Hmm, yes.

*as i brutally murder anyone who makes fun of some despot from 500 ad* we dont worship him tho its all good

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Caufman
May 7, 2007



Blah blah blah, I continue to shitpost the same point in a thread I claim not to be interested in.

It's ok, dog. I still love you despite your limits and hope you will choose to live brighter tomorrow.

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Blah blah blah, I continue to shitpost the same point in a thread I claim not to be interested in.

It's ok, dog. I still love you despite your limits and hope you will choose to live brighter tomorrow.

Happily I'm an atheist so I can tell him he's a trolling fuckhead who needs to go post in YouTube comments.

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Sure, reverence and worship may not look all that different from the outside. But to grasp the perspective of the other person, there's no way to get around appreciating how lyrics to birhday sex they understand and practice reverence versus worship.

For your own convenience, you can assume a Catholic worships Mary and a Jehovah's Witness worships Jesus. But you will never understand their perspective better by concluding there.

Good luck convincing me that Mary isn't an avatar of Kali Shakti / Generic Mother Goddess.

Edit: more Sufi-ish effortposting

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Caufman
May 7, 2007



Your mother only wants you to grow up to be decent.

Also your mother is so fat that she is worshipped in multiple religions under different names.

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Happily I'm an atheist so I can tell him he's a trolling fuckhead who needs to go post in YouTube comments.

Only you can keep doing Atheismo's good and important work.

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Happily I'm an atheist so I can tell him he's a trolling fuckhead who needs to go post in YouTube comments.

When you have no response, but you feel duty bound by your lingering white guilt to keep defending anything "brown", no matter how terrible, stoneage, or anti-western it is :iamafag:

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Caufman
May 7, 2007



What is with your distaste for white liberals? Is this a MAGA thing?

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Caufman
May 7, 2007



No matter what color you are, dog, there are people with your pigment disappointed in you right now.

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How does neo-platonism fare in Islam? You had the same texts as the Byzantines and neo-platonism heavily influenced Orthodox thought. Is there any lasting neo-platonism in mainstream islam

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Feb 26, 2010

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How do you feel about the fact that so many, I'd say the majority, of people who read the studied and contemplated the same words you did came to a very different conclusion?

To be clear, i'm not talking about death to America terrorist nonsense, I realize that does not represent the majority of Muslims. I'm talking about things like the aforementioned treatment of women, or violently defending the prophet, or LGBT stuff, or the apparent fact that Islam must be legislated so that the government can legally enforce it, or the biggest sticking point for me, capital punishment for anyone leaving the faith. I'm going to assume you don't agree with the majority of your faith on all these issues, but by all means correct me if I'm wrong.

Did you read it differently? Do most people just get things wrong?

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Jan 5, 2006



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How do you feel about the fact that so many, I'd say the majority, of people who read the studied and contemplated the same words you did came to a very different conclusion?

To be clear, i'm not talking about death to America terrorist nonsense, I realize that does not represent the majority of Muslims. I'm talking about things like the aforementioned treatment of women, or violently defending the prophet, or LGBT stuff, or the apparent fact that Islam must be legislated so that the government can legally enforce it, or the biggest sticking point for me, capital punishment for anyone leaving the faith. I'm going to assume you don't agree with the majority of your faith on all these issues, but by all means correct me if I'm wrong.

Did you read it differently? Do most people just get things wrong?

Lots of people read it the same way that Tendai does, they just don't get a lot of publicity because "local Muslim doesn't think apostates should be killed" or whatever, doesn't make for a really interesting news story.

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muhammad definitely had peace and equality in mind when he wrote those words, friend, which is why he brutally slaughtered thousands who wouldnt convert

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Lots of people read it the same way that Tendai does, they just don't get a lot of publicity because "local Muslim doesn't think apostates should be killed" or whatever, doesn't make for a really interesting news story.

I guess it would depend on your definition of local, but since less than 3% of Muslims live in the west and less than 1% live in all of the Americas, "local Muslim" doesn't represent the majority that I was referring to.

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Tendai
Mar 16, 2007

"When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."



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How does neo-platonism fare in Islam? You had the same texts as the Byzantines and neo-platonism heavily influenced Orthodox thought. Is there any lasting neo-platonism in mainstream islam
I am not ignoring this! But I really don't know anything about neo-platonism beyond a Wikipedia article, and I am kind of burnt from work. I will read more and answer this tomorrow.

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How do you feel about the fact that so many, I'd say the majority, of people who read the studied and contemplated the same words you did came to a very different conclusion?

To be clear, i'm not talking about death to America terrorist nonsense, I realize that does not represent the majority of Muslims. I'm talking about things like the aforementioned treatment of women, or violently defending the prophet, or LGBT stuff, or the apparent fact that Islam must be legislated so that the government can legally enforce it, or the biggest sticking point for me, capital punishment for anyone leaving the faith. I'm going to assume you don't agree with the majority of your faith on all these issues, but by all means correct me if I'm wrong.

Did you read it differently? Do most people just get things wrong?
Sad. Annoyed. Struggling to be understanding. Combine all of those into one emotion and that's about as close as you get.

The Quran is vague about things, what they mean, if they're supposed to be interpreted on a deeper level or viewed solely on the merit of the obvious explanation. One of the things that appealed deeply to me about Islam was the sense of individuality - while it's good to be near a mosque and other Muslims, it doesn't make you even slightly less a Muslim if you aren't. That same individuality, in my view, falls on us to interpret the meaning of the Quran. Considering the multitude of different viewpoints in a given group of people, even from the same culture, about free prego porn videos far more trivial poo poo, and it's easy for me to see how people are going to have wildly different thoughts on what a given passage means.

So I understand it, I really do, or at least the reason it happens. But in my mind, if there's a decision to make, the onus should be on us to make the decision that will most benefit Allah's creation. The interpretations I make tend to swing that way. Allah is not benefited by people dying because they're not Muslims, or they're women, or they're inconvenient; to me it's an insult. We are given fat ugly girl porn so much just by being alive, it's amazing we my sims have sex are alive, whether you look at it spiritually or scientifically. To swing the other way, to decide that to destroy some part of Allah's creation, be it physically, mentally, or emotionally, is the just and fair way to go? It doesn't work with how my mind works.

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Lots of people read it the same way that Tendai does, they just don't get a lot of publicity because "local Muslim doesn't think apostates should be killed" or whatever, doesn't make for a really interesting news story.
There aren't many, or at least not many vocal ones. There is a real danger for some people, particularly women, in certain cultures, for visibly straying from the norm. Even the fact that a place like the progressive Muslim subreddit exists on Reddit without getting shitted on to oblivion by the mainstream Muslim subreddit still startles me. But there are far more vocal people about it than there were ten years ago and that's progress on some level, at least. It's not going to be instant.

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P-Mack
Nov 10, 2007



Thanks for the info on Sufism! Could you give a little info on Chishti in particular and what the salient distinguishing features of it are, if that's your jam?

Also, dumb question, do you believe morning prayer should be done before breakfast, or after?

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Grandmother of Five
May 9, 2008

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Thanks for answering a bunch of questions I missed the previous versions of this thread, so I have a bunch of questions!

Have you personally experienced bias, discrimination or harassment due to practicing Islam? In relation to that, do you feel that the area in which you live is generally an accepting, safe space for you to live?

I'm also interested in hearing, to what extent your social and everyday-life take place within the framework of a religious community.

Like, do you have close personal friends and relatives who aren't Muslim and who doesn't practice Islam, or how far out on the family tree before anyone practicing Christianity or other religions appear?

Does being a Muslim, for you personally, extend to something like hobbies and sports largely taking place within that religious community? Like, is your rowing or chess club or whatever, also a religious community? To the extent that these communities exists (like a Muslim Chess Club or w/e), do you prefer to engage in them or to engage elsewhere?

I'd also be interesting in hearing, whether the concepts of heaven and hell in Islam, is more similar to that of Christianity or Judaism. I know that there is a shared framework between Islam, Christianity and Judaism, but can practitioners or Judaism and Christianity go to heaven, or does it hinge on accepting Muhammed as a prophet?

Do you personally believe in the concept of heaven and hell - and if you do, and you have friends and family who are non-believers, how do you reconcile, or accept the knowledge, that some people who you care greatly about, will be lost in the after-life, in a sense? I realize this is not an issue that is unique to Islam, and it may not be applicable to your personal faith, at all, but it is something that is interesting to me, because, I would think that it would be extremely hard to uphold the belief in the concept of a heaven and hell, or a heaven and non-heaven, while maintaining an underlying basic respect for people as being inherently equal, if that makes sense.

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Tendai
Mar 16, 2007

"When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."



Grimey Drawer

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How does neo-platonism fare in Islam? You had the same texts as the Byzantines and neo-platonism heavily influenced Orthodox thought. Is there any lasting neo-platonism in mainstream islam
Disclaimer: This is based on my interpretation of everything, including neo-Platonism, which I knew nothing about until I just read a PBS definition and Wikipedia. Take it with a grain of salt.

The concept of the One, I understand and recognize. God has many names to many people, and many interpretations. Like this, from Wikipedia, I find similar to how I think:

quote:

For Plotinus, the first principle of reality is "the One," an utterly simple, ineffable, unknowable subsistence which is both the creative source and the teleological end of all existing things. Although, properly speaking, there is no name appropriate for the first principle, the most adequate names are "the One" or "the Good". The One is so simple that it cannot even be said to exist or to be a being. Rather, the creative principle of all things is beyond being, a notion which is derived from Book VI of the Republic, when, in the course of his famous analogy of the sun, Plato says that the Good is beyond being (ἐπέκεινα τῆς οὐσίας) in power and dignity.

I don't quite understand the concept of the nous. I can see where the idea of Christ as the son/emanation of God could come from thought like that, but it could also very well be that I don't understand it.

I guess the essential answer here is that I see things to myself after my study of Islam and Sufi general thought that I recognize, but the whole as such is not entirely alike. I apologize for my lack of knowledge!

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Thanks for the info on Sufism! Could you give a little info on Chishti in particular and what the salient distinguishing features of it are, if that's your jam?

Also, dumb question, do you believe morning prayer should be done before breakfast, or after?
There is a particularly gentle streak of anarchism in Chisht thought, from all I've read - I won't claim to be anything but a beginner in it as a tariqa. But while there's the idea of charity and the idea of mercy and the idea of shying away from power, there's also the "Be a blazing fire of Truth" from the final sermon I posted previously. It's a balanced method of thought to me, one that makes me feel balanced and puts me closer, I think, to older younger lesbian stories fitra. In his last days, Khwaja Muinuddin Chishti is recorded as having said what translates to "The whole world is illuminated with the Divine Light of Allah Almighty." The search for truth is a big deal.

Chishti have five particular vanessa hudgens naked pussy dhikr, devotional practices. Silent and verbal recitation of the names of Allah, meditation and breath regulation, and solitude. Well, more hermitude than solitude, it's specifically withdrawing for 40+ days to a lonely place to pray and meditate. Most if not all of those are shared by other Sufi sex with stepmom videos tariqa in some form or another, but the forms will differ in specifics. Others will also have less or more, there are a whole lot of variations.

Prayer before breakfast:

I, personally, do it before breakfast because I feel slightly more focused. Otherwise, the answer to that depends on what sunna/hadith you believe and how hard you believe them

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Have you personally experienced bias, discrimination or harassment due to practicing Islam? In relation to that, do you feel that the area in which you live is generally an accepting, safe space for you to live?
99% of the time, no. After 9/11 I was still wearing hijab and there was some shittiness in the weeks that followed, but nothing terrifying or dangerous. I'm white, and I'm crippled. People think I'm not a threat.

I currently live in a reasonably-sized town in Colorado in which I am the only Muslim I know of. Based solely on names and conversations I would angelina jolie lesbian shower guess a few people at work are, but I'm not at all certain. There is no mosque within 100 miles and without going over mountain ranges. I'm not really involved with the community and I'm very careful about it when I've been in large cities. Mosques can have extremely diverse viewpoints.

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Like, do you have close personal friends and relatives who aren't Muslim and who doesn't practice Islam, or how far out on the family tree before anyone practicing Christianity or other religions appear?
Far enough out that I haven't traced it, and I have pretty massive geneaologies for both sides. Mormons might not be my thing, but they do like family history. To my knowledge, no one in my family is or has been. Most of my mom's siblings are still Mormon, same with my dad and Baptist. Because of the extremely isolated places I've lived, my friends are almost all non-Muslim. I used to live 40 minutes up a mountain from everything, literally.

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Does being a Muslim, for you personally, extend to something like hobbies and sports largely taking place within that religious community? Like, is your rowing or chess club or whatever, also a religious community? To the extent that these communities exists (like a Muslim Chess Club or w/e), do you prefer to engage in them or to engage elsewhere?
It'd be nice to have others to do things with say, during Ramadan where my schedule by necessity gets all fucky, or people who understood about prayer, but it's not necessary. If it was I'd have no hobbies but hanging around on Islam forums and I don't want to contemplate that

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I'd also be interesting in hearing, whether the concepts of heaven and hell in Islam, is more similar to that of Christianity or Judaism. I know that there is a shared framework between Islam, Christianity and Judaism, but can practitioners or Judaism and Christianity go to heaven, or does it hinge on accepting Muhammed as a prophet?

Do you personally believe in the concept of heaven and hell - and if you do, and you have friends and family who are non-believers, how do you reconcile, or accept the knowledge, that some people who you care greatly about, will be lost in the after-life, in a sense? I realize this is not an issue that is unique to Islam, and it may not be applicable to your personal faith, at all, but it is something that is interesting to me, because, I would think that it would be extremely hard to uphold the belief in the concept of a heaven and hell, or a heaven and non-heaven, while maintaining an underlying basic respect for people as being inherently equal, if that makes sense.
This is more difficult and I am hungry, so I will answer this last part when I get off work tomorrow.

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Jan 30, 2006

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No one else is threadshitting but if you do you're getting probated. This is the only warning. This is a questions thread--if you want to argue about politics go to D&D and if you want to shitpost anti-Islamic crap go to Reddit.

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Women are treated like poo poo in the vast majority of orthodox Islam, and it's wrong. Modesty of dress isn't a bad thing, but the interpretation of it in some places is insane. The Quran's instruction is fairly vague - cover your chest, and "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary." The interpretation of what is "necessary" is obviously incredibly varied, look at the majority Muslim countries that are out there and compare the dress codes of Saudi Arabia and Turkey (though considering where things are going under Erdogan, we'll see how that stands in the future).

I dress modestly by my interpretation. I don't flash my tits and I don't wear booty shorts. It's not a particular hardship. If other people, Muslim or not, want to dress otherwise, teen tight ass pussy it is not my issue. What a person does that doesn't hurt others, is entirely between them and Allah.

Personally, what do you believe is the reason for the Quran's instruction? Why must women cover themselves? Do you know of any rules for men which you feel counterbalance that one?

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Baron Porkface
Jan 22, 2007


Do you believe that the Koran is the revaled word of God? I ask because in the middle of the last a/t Islam thread the OP suddenly announced that he didn't believe it was, and it got on my nerves that he likely said so in order to dodge difficult questions about what the Koran says about social issues.

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How do you defend Islam as a "religion of peace" when the very word "islam" itself means "to submit"?

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Caufman
May 7, 2007



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How do you defend Islam as a "religion of peace" when the very word "islam" itself means "to submit"?

Practitioners of Abrahamic religions all acknowledge voluntarily sublimating one's personal (and especially selfish) will for the will of God. Spock said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." A believer says, "The will of the ultimate meaning is more important than my fleeting desires."

From the outside, I can see how Islam is practiced as a religion of peace. Muhammad was very different from Jesus of Nazareth. He was born into tribal royalty and became a monarchial head of state. He used all the tools of statecraft: taxation, diplomacy, and warfare in ultima ratio. But within his state, he valued a just peace, and so remains an essential role model to many families and individuals.

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Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012



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Practitioners of Abrahamic religions all acknowledge voluntarily sublimating one's personal (and especially selfish) will for the will of God.

I'd say if you took god out of there you could lump buddhists in as well, putting something higher before yourself is pretty common across religions AFAIK.

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Caufman
May 7, 2007



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I'd say if you took god out of there you could lump buddhists in as well, putting something higher before yourself is pretty common across religions AFAIK.

Oh mate, how I agree with you. See you all on the other side.

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Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012



I'd go so far as to say it's pretty common to not being a piece of poo poo, religious or otherwise.

OP a question: do you follow food haraam? If so is it difficult to find halaal stuff in the states? Over here there are burger chains and poo poo that are able to do halal patties and stuff but I can't imagine the US is so...accepting.

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How do you defend Islam as a "religion of peace" when the very word "islam" itself means "to submit"?

There are reasons to question the "religion of peace" claim but this is quite a stretch. The verb is "to submit", not "to force into submission." It's describing an action that's inherently passive and peaceful.

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Tendai
Mar 16, 2007

"When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."



Grimey Drawer

Did I say yesterday? I meant today. Long week.

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I'd also be interesting in hearing, whether the concepts of heaven and hell in Islam, is more similar to that of Christianity or Judaism. I know that there is a shared framework between Islam, Christianity and Judaism, but can practitioners or Judaism and Christianity go to heaven, or does it hinge on accepting Muhammed as a prophet?

Do you personally believe in the concept of heaven and hell - and if you do, and you have friends and family who are non-believers, how do you reconcile, or accept the knowledge, that some people who you care greatly about, will be lost in the after-life, in a sense? I realize this is not an issue that is unique to Islam, and it may not be applicable to your personal faith, at all, but it is something that is interesting to me, because, I would think that it would be extremely hard to uphold the belief in the concept of a heaven and hell, or a heaven and non-heaven, while maintaining an underlying basic respect for people as being inherently equal, if that makes sense.
I will be honest in that this is one of the areas in which I struggle with my own belief. I don't think anyone is 100% all or nothing when it comes to belief in something, and I know I'm not.

Taken explicitely, the Quran seems to indicate that people who are not Muslims, with certain historical exceptions, are not going to jannah, paradise. People not "of reason," however you choose to interpret that, are considered to have their cases left up to Allah, so to speak. They aren't buried in Muslim graveyards but the overwhelming idea even among the sane conservatives I've talked to is that Allah is merciful towards children, or those who don't have the mental capacity to understand, and such, or even people who have literally never heard of Islam.

Even for Muslims, however, it's far from guaranteed. There's the pretty ancient idea that your good deeds are weighed against your bad ones, and only if the good outweighs the bad do you go to jannah. It's considered at changing room naked video best a grievous faux paus to assume you're going to paradise, and more usually considered something like an insult to Allah.

After that it gets trickier. I think the most conservative would quite literally say "Anyone who's heard about Islam and doesn't immediately believe in it is going to Hell." Others will say people who studied it and don't believe it, etc. I will issue a disclaimer and say that I have no idea how many people, even among moderates and progressives, follow my own view. I can only say it's what I believe and there is, because I'm human, a reasonable chance that I'm wrong. But I hope I'm not.

Anyhow, my belief is this: That just hearing about it isn't enough. "Knowing," to me, does not have the same meaning spiritually as it does in terms of something like knowing 2+2=4. Knowing is certainty, being absolutely certain that Allah exists, even if you struggle at times with specific beliefs. And for different people, that takes different paths. My path to Allah was my own, others have theirs. If someone doesn't truly hear the word of Allah, hot chick dancing naked truly hear it, the fault isn't theirs for not believing.

Surah 17:15 reads (bolding mine, Sahih International translation):
nicollette sheridan sex tape "Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. eighteen year old sex And never would We punish until We sent a messenger."

Further on in the same surah, same translation:

naturi naughton nude notorious "Your Lord is most knowing of what is within yourselves. If you should be righteous [in intention] - then indeed He is ever, to the often returning [to Him], Forgiving."

I can't reconcile things like that with the idea that someone who never found their way to Allah is automatically destined for Hell. Intention matters so much as a whole in Islam that the idea of a black and white division like that doesn't make sense to me.

In short, my own beliefs can be summarized as "I believe the only beings that go to Hell are ones who know, in the most spiritual sense, that Allah is real, and who deliberately turn away. I also think most people, even myself, don't necessarily ever reach that point of perfect belief. Thus, intention is extremely important."

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Personally, what do you believe is the reason for the Quran's instruction? Why must women cover themselves? Do you know of any rules for men which you feel counterbalance that one?
I don't know, honestly. Unsatisfying, but there you go. And yes, men have corresponding ideas that are often not followed because Islam comes from and remains prevalent in cultures where women bear the burden of that kind of thing and many others. For men, navel to knees must be covered, generally. Again this is an area where your viewpoint will depend greatly on whether you're Sunni or Shi'a, where you're from, what your family's like, and things like that. Generally speaking, however, I can't think of any mainstream groups that go less than that, only those that go more.

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Do you believe that the Koran is the revaled word of God? I ask because in the middle of the last a/t Islam thread the OP suddenly announced that he didn't believe it was, and it got on my nerves that he likely said so in order to dodge difficult questions about what the Koran says about social issues.
Yes, I do. I do think that trying to put the literal word of Allah into human understood language, then translating it, makes things murky and necessitates interpretation, but I believe that Allah gave the Quran to Mohammad.

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How do you defend Islam as a "religion of peace" when the very word "islam" itself means "to submit"?
As others have said, I don't find the two things mutually exclusive at all. The word itself is directed at Muslims, not others, it's the idea of submitting totally to Allah. I mean I do think the "religion of peace" thing is overused and easily attacked for a lot of reasons, but like was said, that's not really one of them in my mind.

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I'd go so far as to say it's pretty common to not being a piece of poo poo, religious or otherwise.

OP a question: do you follow food haraam? If so is it difficult to find halaal stuff in the states? Over here there are burger chains and poo poo that are able to do halal patties and stuff but I can't imagine the US is so...accepting.
Here's to not being a piece of poo poo

Food-wise, yes, unless by accident. I've eaten things made by coworkers/relatives that have pork in them and not realized or not been a rude dick enough to refuse, but on my own volition I avoid them. There's a lot more good halal food available anywhere now thanks to the internet, and it really does encourage me to cook healthily and not rely on pre-packaged poo poo.

I do drink (very rarely), and as a post history perusal will tell you, smoke. The Quran specifically says (4:43) not to "approach prayer with a mind befogged" which is a term I've always liked, and one I respect - I do not pray when not sober, which in turns limits my consumption of anything like that because I pray or am at work multiple times a day.

Interestingly, medical marijuana is a reasonably big debate in some Muslim areas right now, Islamically-speaking. There's a fairly large number of people who believe it has clear medicinal value and who think that this needs to be addressed, even in orthodox groups.

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Caufman
May 7, 2007



With respect, is violent radicalization talked about in your close circle of fellow Muslims, and how? I don't mean someone suggesting, "Hey now is a good time to pull out all our cash and move to Raqqa." More like, "I think so-and-so's kid is withdrawing in a bad way," or, "That imam really stresses us-vs-them messages."

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Tendai
Mar 16, 2007

"When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."



Grimey Drawer

Every conversation I've seen about it in real life has been pretty bluntly honest. I've talked to two people in the last ten years who have expressed mild worries about a person in their family or wider circle of connections. I think that's attributable to the people I hang out with, mostly - there is very little of the us-and-them, cultural division that is sadly still really common in American mosques at least (presumably other places as well, but I can't speak for them).

On the internet, things are murkier. If everything on the main Islam subreddit is truth, I do worry.

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Jan 5, 2006



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Every conversation I've seen about it in real life has been pretty bluntly honest. I've talked to two people in the last ten years who have expressed mild worries about a person in their family or wider circle of connections. I think that's attributable to the people I hang out with, mostly - there is very little of the us-and-them, cultural division that is sadly still really common in American mosques at least (presumably other places as well, but I can't speak for them).

On the internet, things are murkier. If everything on the main Islam subreddit is truth, I do worry.

A significant number of radicalized people have family members trying to alert authorities, too, or simply telling them to gently caress off with their nonsense and get a grip on sanity again -- it doesn't receive the attention it should, but it's happening.

A good Egyptian friend of mine "rediscovered" his religion after what I gather was a bit of a rough time in his life, and his folks told him straight out, "if you grow a big beard, and hang around with [jihadists or sympathizers], we'll disown you. We didn't make sacrifices to get out of Egypt to see you piss it all away." So now he's still an observant Muslim*, but his family helped keep him away from being seduced by the elements that could've start radicalizing him.

I think a big problem comes from people who embrace Islam as an act of rebellion, whether they come from a Muslim background or not. They're easy to tempt into bad things, because they already want to make a statement by it as much or more than they want to worship Allah. At least, that's the impression I get as a non-Muslim. I can only judge by the people I've talked to.

* Marijuana: not haraam, as long as it's occasional. Shisha, free lesbian hentai streaming very not haraam.

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Tendai
Mar 16, 2007

"When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."



Grimey Drawer

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yo where's the cats
cats at the mosque, bruh.

Islam digs cats.

Allah will not tolerate people loving with cats:

quote:

al-Bukhaari (3223) and Muslim (1507) from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both), according to which the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A woman was punished because of a cat which she kept locked up until it died, and she entered Hell because of it, because she did not feed it or give it water when she kept it locked up, neither did she let it eat from the vermin of the earth.”

The Prophet dug cats:

quote:

When the call to prayers was heard, Muezza was asleep on one of the sleeves of the Prophet’s robes. The Prophet wanted to wear the robe to go to prayers. Rather than disturb Muezza, Muhammad cut off the sleeve to leave Muezza in peace.


His companions and followers dug cats:

quote:

Abu Hurayrah (literally “Father of the Kitten”) was so called because he used to love cats and keep them. He became well known by this name and people forgot his real name, until the scholars disputed concerning his real name and there were nearly thirty different opinions as to what it was. Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said in al-Istee’aab: “The most correct view is that his name was ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Sakhr but none of them disputed that he was Abu Hurayrah.”

Sufis did and do dig cats:

quote:

The Sufi master from Baghdad, Shaykh Abu Bakr al-Shibli, was seen by one of his friends in a dream when he passed away. On being asked what Allah had done to him, he said that he had been granted admission to Paradise, but was asked by Allah if he knew the reason for this blessing. Shaykh Shibli enumerated all his religious duties but none of his acts of piety had saved him. Finally Allah asked him, ‘Do you remember the cold day in Baghdad when it was snowing and you were walking in your coat when you saw a tiny kitten on a wall shivering with cold, and you took it and put it under your warm coat? For the sake of this kitten We have forgiven you.’

Modern clerics dig cats (at al-Azhar in Egypt):



And in return, cats give not a single gently caress (same dude as above, I'm free child sex videos reasonably sure):

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cats at the mosque, bruh.

Islam digs cats.

Allah will not tolerate people loving with cats:


The Prophet dug cats:


His companions and followers dug cats:


Sufis did and do dig cats:


Modern clerics dig cats (at al-Azhar in Egypt):



And in return, cats give not a single gently caress (same dude as above, I'm free anime porn vidos reasonably sure):

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This is a fantastic catpost and, I suppose, Islampost.

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