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Seldom Posts
Jul 4, 2010


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Not quite

My point being is that fantasy in which pistols are pistols is tedious

Better fantasy would have pistols that are not pistols instead of pistols called something other than pistols

Ideal fantasy would have something that is not a pistol and is also not called a pistol

This is like a reductio ad absurdum thirst trap.

"Ideal fantasy would have something that is not a pistol and is also not called a pistol" so literally anything? Like here is my fantasy about ballet that kills people. It's good because those things are not pistols and not called pistols.

I think you've got two arguments:

1)the first is in response to the question what is actually fantasy? And your answer is: whatever publishers say it is to the bookstores. (Which we also discussed when we were talking about YA in this thread). Which is pretty reductive and boring, but sure, yeah, true whatever. It's the literature equivalent of the "bachelor is an unmarried man" syllogism.

2)the second is more interesting. It's "what is good fantasy?" this is what you (and the thread) are getting at above. Your argument seems to be that good fantasy is truly fantastical, but you lose the plot with "something that is not a pistol and not called a pistol."

There's a tired critque that BOTL and Great Evil King have used in the past that goes something like this: "this novel has [thing that is like our world] but not the antecedents for that thing, so it makes no sense. Like using the phrase sodomite in hot anime girls naked Baru even those there's no Christianity, etc. You're basically doing the upscale version of that. I think the real answer is that good fantasy is same as good literature. It has good prose, and compelling ideas. The reason we don't see much good fantasy is because it's easier to get published as a bad fantasy writer then it is as a bad lit fiction writer.

edit: I wrote this up and forgot to hit post--you have addressed some of this stuff in later posts.

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


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Like here is my fantasy about ballet that kills people. It's good because those things are not pistols and not called pistols.

Yeah this book would be superior to most fantasy by embracing the potential of the fantastical

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


like I know you were attempting to try and create an absurd image but the idea of a world in which dance is the most lethal and concentrated form of violence, where beleagued soldiers hip thrust and piroutte through bloodied fields of human remains before they are reduced to hot viscera at the sight of a particularly savage arabesque is genuienly the only interesting pitch for a fantasy world I have heard in years.

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


It has been twenty years now since the pogram began. The breakers, a culture known to practice a particularly savage and deadly form of dance, have been hunted to near extinction. The world fears them for their role in the great war of the three clans, when the breakers unleashed the full fury of b-boyism. The devastation was so great that even now, generations later, the battlefield remains little more than glass and sand. However, a new threat arises in the East, and it seems that only a member of this long-hated clan can stand against it. Young Fizzy-Fresh is tasked with the near impossible challenge to use his skills in the defense of those who killed everyone he ever knew. Will Fizzy redeem his people, or will he simply bring about the final cataclysm? Before he can even begin to meet his destiny however, he must seek out the only material that might hope to help him safely channel his powers. So begins...

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Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


My favourite genre is whichever genre youtube lesbian toe sucking The Singing Detective was.

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Seldom Posts
Jul 4, 2010


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like I know you were attempting to try and create an absurd image but the idea of a world in which dance is the most lethal and concentrated form of violence, where beleagued soldiers hip thrust and piroutte through bloodied fields of human remains before they are reduced to hot viscera at the sight of a particularly savage arabesque is genuienly the only interesting pitch for a fantasy world I have heard in years.

We both have bright futures as "ideas guys."

But seriously though, this isn't that fantastic a concept. If that's what you want from fantasy, there are books that do it:

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All these books do "reality, but not reality" is some interesting way. Waaaaay better than elves,dwarfs, dragons.

I'm going to end this convo to work up my deadly ballet pitch letter.

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Seldom Posts
Jul 4, 2010


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It has been twenty years now since the pogram began. The breakers, a culture known to practice a particularly savage and deadly form of dance, have been hunted to near extinction. The world fears them for their role in the great war of the three clans, when the breakers unleashed the full fury of b-boyism. The devastation was so great that even now, generations later, the battlefield remains little more than glass and sand. However, a new threat arises in the East, and it seems that only a member of this long-hated clan can stand against it. Young Fizzy-Fresh is tasked with the near impossible challenge to use his skills in the defense of those who killed everyone he ever knew. Will Fizzy redeem his people, or will he simply bring about the final cataclysm? Before he can even begin to meet his destiny however, he must seek out the only material that might hope to help him safely channel his powers. So begins...

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Hope this doesn't get to market before my book.

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

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All these books do "reality, but not reality" is some interesting way. Waaaaay better than elves,dwarfs, dragons.

My only complaint about these books is that they are too on the nose about their themes. Some level of obfuscation is needed to make the most of good art.

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Mar 18, 2007

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BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

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Gene Wolfe posted:

Fantasy is a fictional narrative describing events the reader believes to be impossible.

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


By that definition Law and Order SVU is fantasy

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Mar 18, 2007

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that also leaves fantasy indistinguishable from, say, horror, or epic

e: and all but the hardest science fiction, unless you think a scenario like free sex videos extreme event horizon is possible irl

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painful anal sex videos it follows: fantasy

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lesbian college sex videos the vvitch: fantasy if you're an atheist, jewish, buddhist, muslim or hindu; black women sex tape not fantasy if you're a christian of certain denominations

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The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



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I wouldn't go that far

He's patently wrong but I think that has more to do with the fact that he assumes his personal way of interpreting events in the text is a universally applied principle for all readers

i.e. the people getting killed in Godzilla are real and the hobbits getting killed are not real

I mean I think the way I defined what puts a story in the fantasy genre is fairly uncontroversial?

If you want to lol about how I think Godzilla killed real people go ahead but it's not exactly a good faith interpretation of my position.

Yes genre is largely marketing, there is a reason the marketing is appealing and I think it is silly to deliberately pretend the appeal of genre fiction (or even specifically fantasy fiction) is incomprehensible.

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BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

I'll split you open and I don't even like coconuts.


I think the point is that fantasy (and all fiction) relies on manipulating reader expectations.

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BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

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By that definition Law and Order SVU is fantasy

The forensic "techniques" used are most definitely fantasy or science fiction, and inconsistent with the rest of the show.

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

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The forensic "techniques" used are most definitely fantasy or science fiction, and inconsistent with the rest of the show.

I am not talking about the techniques I am talking about the entire nature of the program

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

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I mean I think the way I defined what puts a story in the fantasy genre is fairly uncontroversial?

Most of the thread disagrees with you so perhaps its not as uncontroversial as you thought

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The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



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Most of the thread disagrees with you so perhaps its not as uncontroversial as you thought

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If you want to lol about how I think Godzilla killed real people go ahead but it's not exactly a good faith interpretation of my position.

Yes genre is largely marketing, there is a reason the marketing is appealing and I think it is silly to deliberately pretend the appeal of genre fiction (or even specifically fantasy fiction) is incomprehensible.

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BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

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I am not talking about the techniques I am talking about the entire nature of the program

I admit to not having seen a full episode, but what I saw was preposterous and poorly written.

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


No one has said the appeal is incomprehensible at all.

People have said the idea that fantasy can be defined as a genre is false

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

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I admit to not having seen a full episode, but what I saw was preposterous and poorly written.

Indeed, and I would argue fundamentally preposterous to the point of impossibility.

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I'd have gone with The Tempest, but sure

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

This is cyber bulling and I will not stand for it.


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I'd have gone with The Tempest, but sure

trying to reverse fit a 20th century genre into pre-modern art is inane

King Arthur, for example, is not and never can be considered fantasy outside of TH White

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Seldom Posts
Jul 4, 2010


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trying to reverse fit a 20th century genre into pre-modern art is inane

King Arthur, for example, is not and never can be considered fantasy outside of TH White

I seem to recall that HA has serious King Arthur chops. I bet he could make it any genre, even noir, if he wanted to.

Oh poo poo, there's another book idea.

Betrayals, femme fatales, a quest for a maltese falcon grail, it's all there.

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Jan 30, 2009


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I seem to recall that HA has serious King Arthur chops. I bet he could make it any genre, even noir, if he wanted to.

Oh poo poo, there's another book idea.

Betrayals, femme fatales, a quest for a maltese falcon grail, it's all there.

Actually King Arthur outside the 5th or 6th century AD post Roman Britain is a giant pet peeve of mine.

That said Mel never responded to the question about William Morris as fantasy

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

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That said Mel never responded to the question about William Morris as fantasy

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Pre-Raphaelite, big influence on Tolkien

There's also Lord Dunsany who started writing in the 1890's (though admittedly didn't start doing Fantasy with a capital F till about 1905). James Branch Cabel got his first story published in 1901.

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