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Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


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the wasp factory is very good.

i rooted for the idirans against the culture.

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I think that's a bit of an over-simplification. The series as a whole presents a bunch of different alternatives to the Culture - the Gzilt, the Morthanveld, the Chelgrians - all are doing their own thing while being neither barbaric nor bourgeois.

The "real" Culture is the massively interventionist military power that will happily gently caress with your small-c culture just because they think they're in the right. free lil lupe porn And as Use of Weapons and Look to Windward strongly demonstrate, this approach is monstrous, no matter how appealing their moral calculus.

The Minds are not good people beings, and the books are pretty clear on that.


This I find is pretty indicative of the book's failure. Like I pointed out, this universe is infinite and it's still impossible to imagine a genuine and successful leftist utopia, no doubt because of political cynicism like this. The people in this charge are inevitably going to be corrupt, a polity meddling elsewhere is naturally colonialist and monstrous. There's no possibility of non-colonialist intervention in order to improve the universe.

So even in an universe where anything is possible, justice, peace, and utopia are still unimaginable, and we default to perverse violence.

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Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Why is this a failure? He set out to write a series about a benevolent yet hypocritical militarily interventionist hippy commune in space, and that's exactly what we got.

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As pointed out, Banks offers an ideologically biased and dishonest choice: either liberal paternalism or barbarism. The novels disclose the possibility of true justice or peace. Even read satirically, most of the text is rather pointless for a satirical purpose. Banks has absolutely no imagination, only endless cynicism that produced a series of mostly redundant and sleazily exploitative adventure fiction novels.

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Peel
Dec 3, 2007



anal sex toy review by Banks' friend Ken MacLeod is relevant here.

quote:

However friendly he was to the radical left, Iain had little interest in relating the long-range possibility of utopia to radical politics in the here and now. As he saw it, what mattered was to keep the utopian possibility open by continuing technological progress, especially space development, and in the meantime to support whatever policies and politics in the real world were rational and humane.

quote:

In summary, Iain's political views were, by and large, what you'd expect from an Old Labour supporter and Guardian reader with an informed interest in the analyses of the radical left. What was perhaps more unusual than his views was the consistency and tenacity with which he held them, and his confidence that they must in the long run prevail if civilization was to survive.

It's unsurprising, in that context, that the Culture series has a certain horizon to its idea of political possibilities. That said, there's a gap between the propositions 'the ideological universe of the novels is bounded' and 'this is artistically bad'.

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It's unsurprising, in that context, that the Culture series has a certain horizon to its idea of political possibilities. That said, there's a gap between the propositions 'the ideological universe of the novels is bounded' and 'this is artistically bad'.

It's artistically bad if the author doesn't paint the false dichotomy as satirical. An outsider has to see that the two choices aren't the only two possibilities, reject both extremes, and strive for something different.

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Dec 3, 2007



I dunno, can't cynicism or pessimism be valid artistic stances?

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

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I dunno, can't cynicism or pessimism be valid artistic stances?

I question the value of being pessimistic about a political system and reality you yourself invented

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I question the value of being pessimistic about a political system and reality you yourself invented

All fiction is invented and any literary work thay pretends its systems and realities is otherwise is lying

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

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All fiction is invented and any literary work thay pretends its systems and realities is otherwise is lying

This might be the most superficial and dishonest attempt yet to appeal to a total disregard of significance

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People were stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library.


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queen latifah sex scene by Banks' friend Ken MacLeod is relevant here.



It's unsurprising, in that context, that the Culture series has a certain horizon to its idea of political possibilities. That said, there's a gap between the propositions 'the ideological universe of the novels is bounded' and 'this is artistically bad'.

i mean is this an admission that the leftist utopia portrayed in the books is pure fantasy?

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i mean is this an admission that the leftist utopia portrayed in the books is pure fantasy?

Only in the sense that Banks was not interested in coming up with some future history of how his Culture evolved naturally and boringly from something closer to our (after all the Culture is explicitly not future earth) political environment.

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I dunno, can't cynicism or pessimism be valid artistic stances?

To what end are they being cynical or pessimistic? They've introduced their two possibilities and are cynical about the one that the civilization went with. But what does that say exactly?

It's all about layering or paralleling something real. If the false choice and the cynicism was supposed to be reflective of modern culture, sure. "Yes, American capitalism is a monstrous system that destroys the fabric of society, but it's that or communism and we know communism never works!" But I don't think that's what's going on here.

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What's the line, when is it ok for fiction to be pessimistic, what's the rule

For a political or moral fable to be significant it must have an authentic connection to current experience.

1984 exists as an effective fable because while the universe is imagined, the political system in place is an authentic continuation of political principles already in place. There must be a fundamental and plausible connecting thread to current reality in order for the critique or satire within the text to have relevance to the reader.

If the author creates a reality or political existence that fails to effectively bridge the hypothetical system with the current reality, then any critique of that system is lifeless. If you are being pessimistic about a system you cannot justify actually coming into existence, than the critique is little more than an onanistic exercise in imagination.

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For a political or moral fable to be significant it must have an authentic connection to current experience.

1984 exists as an effective fable because while the universe is imagined, the political system in place is an authentic continuation of political principles already in place. There must be a fundamental and plausible connecting thread to current reality in order for the critique or satire within the text to have relevance to the reader.

If the author creates a reality or political existence that fails to effectively bridge the hypothetical system with the current reality, then any critique of that system is lifeless. If you are being pessimistic about a system you cannot justify actually coming into existence, than the critique is little more than an onanistic exercise in imagination.

I think it would be valid to read the Culture as analogous to the extension of hegemonic western liberal democracy to the nth extreme.

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

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I think it would be valid to read the Culture as analogous to the extension of hegemonic western liberal democracy to the nth extreme.

It could be, sure, but in order for that to happen the reader has to be convinced that this magnification is itself plausible

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my bony fealty
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For a political or moral fable to be significant it must have an authentic connection to current experience.

1984 exists as an effective fable because while the universe is imagined, the political system in place is an authentic continuation of political principles already in place. There must be a fundamental and plausible connecting thread to current reality in order for the critique or satire within the text to have relevance to the reader.

If the author creates a reality or political existence that fails to effectively bridge the hypothetical system with the current reality, then any critique of that system is lifeless. If you are being pessimistic about a system you cannot justify actually coming into existence, than the critique is little more than an onanistic exercise in imagination.

Culture is just this, it's not like Banks came up with space anarcho communism but imperialist out of a vacuum. Are you familiar with 20th century leftist disillusionment re: the USSR. Culture is borne out of dreams of a true post-scarcity utopia and the realization that maybe that kind of magical thinking won't solve all humanity's problems.

Now I'm defending the merits of a series I don't even like that much ahhh

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

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If the Culture is meant to be a leftist critique of the hypocrisy of the Soviet Union I do not see much of the Soviet Union in the Culture

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It could be, sure, but in order for that to happen the reader has to be convinced that this magnification is itself plausible

Why? We don't necessarily need for the Houyhnhnms or the Laputans to be plausible in order to engage with the story, do we? Or maybe we do, the latter parts of Gulliver japanese lesbian sex video do always seem less persuasive that the lilliputians.

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my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008



Yes that's the part of the interest, it's not a 1:1 comparison but rather a chance to imagine familiar problems in a novel context. Fiction is very important for giving us that chance.

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Why? We don't necessarily need for the Houyhnhnms or the Laputans to be plausible in order to engage with the story, do we? Or maybe we do, the latter parts of Gulliver young naked girls porn do always seem less persuasive that the lilliputians.

The Laputans work because they are a satire of a mentality more than a system.

We are not expected to buy the Laputans as a society because the whole point is that mentalities like Laputanism are painfully ineffective.

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Jul 1, 2010



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It's artistically bad if the author doesn't paint the false dichotomy as satirical. An outsider has to see that the two choices aren't the only two possibilities, reject both extremes, and strive for something different.

I don't think there's much of a dichotomy - there's an array of civilisations that aren't barbaric or interventionist hippies, and the books often deal with cultures that are happily doing their own thing. The dancing insect spaceship one from Hydrogen Sonata is my favourite, if only because they manage to have a sense of humour about how backwards and silly the Culture thinks they are.

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It's all about layering or paralleling something real. If the false choice and the cynicism was supposed to be reflective of modern culture, sure. "Yes, American capitalism is a monstrous system that destroys the fabric of society, but it's that or communism and we know communism never works!" But I don't think that's what's going on here.

I think a lot of what drives the Culture novels is liberal guilt. Banks wants a wonderful happy future where everyone can indulge in whatever silly pursuits they like, and that benevolently guides lesser civilisations towards enlightenment. So in a sense it definitely draws upon modern western liberal thought.

But a benevolent colonial power is an impossibility - even a pure ideologically colonialist one like the Culture, which doesn't give a poo poo about territory or resources or any of the typical drivers for colonialism, and just wants everyone to think kind of like they do, because the way the think is the best way and they can prove it with maths. So Banks sets up all these jolly adventure stories and then constantly undercuts them with the violent reality of what the Culture does.

The novels aren't especially interested in resolving all these moral complexities, and instead gives us a range of characters who themselves struggle to resolve them, and never come up with entirely satisfactory answers. It's part of what makes Hydrogen Sonata (especially as his final Culture novel before his death) such an emotional gutpunch - nothing is resolved, some evil is uncovered, some evil goes unpunished, but the bulk of the conspiracy is covered up (for the "greater good") and everyone goes back to just muddling along.

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Yes that's the part of the interest, it's not a 1:1 comparison but rather a chance to imagine familiar problems in a novel context. Fiction is very important for giving us that chance.

Well yeah fiction can give us that chance. No one is trying to say Banks cannot do what he is trying to do. We are saying that, if his goal is what you claim, he is not doing it particularly well.

A cynical critique of political idealism is hollow if the metaphor used is invalid.

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my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008



BotL says Culture is a failure because it's not happy enough and Mel says it's a failure because it doesn't say anything, where oh where does the truth lie

Perhaps not in the spaceship books

But that does not make the spaceship books void of meaning. They are especially meaningful in the context of science fiction, which I gather does not factor much into this grounded discussion.

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But that does not make the spaceship books void of meaning. They are especially meaningful in the context of science fiction, which I gather does not factor much into this grounded discussion.

Okay, then. What is their meaning?

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Perhaps not in the spaceship books

But that does not make the spaceship books void of meaning. They are especially meaningful in the context of science fiction, which I gather does not factor much into this grounded discussion.

Saying sci-fi shouldn't strive for significance because its sci-fi does more damage to the genre than any of us could ever do.

If the response to a weakness in the text is calling it "a spaceship book" you are basically conceding that Scifi is "lesser" than "real" literature. You cannot simultaneously declare genre to be a prison for your favorite texts while also using it as a shield from criticism against them.

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The Laputans work because they are a satire of a mentality more than a system.

We are not expected to buy the Laputans as a society because the whole point is that mentalities like Laputanism are painfully ineffective.

What do you see as the failure point in the Culture's plausibility? Do you have the same issues with, say, Star Trek? Is it just that FTL travel breaks einsteinian relativity so all such depictions that don't involve time travel are impossible (that realization broke a lot of space opera for me for a while)?

I think "Satire" is a strong word for what Banks is doing in the culture novels. I'd go with "explication" or "exploration." He's taking a lot of fairly standard SF tropes -- utopian future post-scarcity society a la Star Trek -- and looking at the flaws that would remain. "Ok, us socialist liberals get the space utopia we think we've always wanted: what happens then? I bet we'd still be colonialist assholes, because people are judgmental and violent even when they aren't people any more" doesn't seem inherently implausible to me. Cynical sure and I find most Banks books really depressing but if cynicism = bad then there's a lot of other babies we have to toss out with this bathwater.

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The criticism of the Culture that Banks offers strikes me as Operation Margarine -like. Like I said, he presents an infinite sci-fi universe where practically anything is possible, but the only real choice is between liberal banality as represented by Culture, some form of barbarism/parochialism, and an inscrutable ancient power. That's in itself a questionable ideological statement.



I had to look up the Operation Margarine essay. Good points. I suppose it turns on whether or not you think Banks is ultimately endorsing the Culture's approach, or not, and I can see arguments both ways on that.

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Saying sci-fi shouldn't strive for significance because its sci-fi does more damage to the genre than any of us could ever do.

I think I've quoted it before in this thread, but Raymond Chandler got at this issue regarding genre fiction in his essay person who loves sex The Simple Art of Murder:

quote:

And he demonstrated that the detective story can be important writing. tyra banks nude free The Maltese Falcon may or may not be a work of genius, but an art which is capable of it is not "by hypothesis" incapable of anything. Once a detective story can be as good as this, only the pedants will deny that it bree olson virtual sex could be even better.

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So two questions, then: not just "is this [objectively] good", but also, in addition to that question, also "is this porn star eva angelina subjectively better than what came before? Does it point the way to improvement?

I mean, I'm not sure "is this good" is even a useful question to ask absent a definition of literary merit, and if anyone has a definition of literary merit I'd like to see it. There's a reason Chandler doesn't even directly try to answer whether or not guys passed out naked The Maltese Falcon is "a work of genius," and just settles for calling it "important writing" instead.

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"Ok, us socialist liberals get the space utopia we think we've always wanted: what happens then? I bet we'd still be colonialist assholes, because people are judgmental and violent even when they aren't people any more" doesn't seem inherently implausible to me.

Bingo.

Now we agree. The Culture novels are not a critique of any particular political system, they are a questioning of whether or not technological advancement can actually lead to a enlightenment of behavior. Are we, as humans, still held within the arms of our baser instincts no matter how advanced scientifically we become?

Then, the question becomes do the characters act authentically "human" in the environment that has been created. Its no longer a question of the authenticity of the system, its a question of whether individuals act plausibly within the construct of that system. I think he succeeds much more here.

And no, I do not think cynicism = bad. I think cynicism needs to be justifiable to be meaningful.

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Okay, then. What is their meaning?

In the sci-fi context - offering a leftist-informed vision of a post-scarcity future that is neither a utopia nor dystopia, but rather a genuinely nuanced imagined society, is pretty important. There are probably precedents but I don't know any that had the impact of Culture, especially given the time it came out - the mid 1980s, when the prevailing sci-fi attitude was "hypercapitalist cyberpunk future will doom us all." Culture is not only a critique of idealism, it's a critique of both political and science-fiction pessimism (consider the state of the Western left in the Thatcherite 80s - Banks had a lot to be mad about).

Banks was wise to all of this. He wrote the Culture books to be exactly what they are. He acknowledged that the Culture is *his* ideal society:

quote:

CNN: Would you like to live in the Culture?
Iain M. Banks: Good grief yes, heck, yeah, oh it’s my secular heaven....Yes, I would, absolutely. Again it comes down to wish fulfillment. I haven’t done a study and taken lots of replies across a cross-section of humanity to find out what would be their personal utopia. It’s mine, I thought of it, and I’m going home with it — absolutely, it’s great.

but understood that for him to have his ideal society, someone somewhere would have to lose out. If he didn't understand that then the Culture really would be written as a utopia, for everyone. If that's too cynical, so be it.

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Saying sci-fi shouldn't strive for significance because its sci-fi does more damage to the genre than any of us could ever do.

If the response to a weakness in the text is calling it "a spaceship book" you are basically conceding that Scifi is "lesser" than "real" literature. You cannot simultaneously declare genre to be a prison for your favorite texts while also using it as a shield from criticism against them.

Correct and I phrased it poorly (mostly spaceship books is fun to say) - I am only emphasizing it's important to consider the traditions a work came out of in that context as well as whatever baseline ur-context there may also be. Culture wouldn't exist without decades of space opera precedent, but it wouldn't exist without decades of real-world precedent either. It has something to say about both.

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In the sci-fi context - offering a leftist-informed vision of a post-scarcity future that is neither a utopia nor dystopia, but rather a genuinely nuanced imagined society, is pretty important. There are probably precedents but I don't know any that had the impact of Culture, especially given the time it came out - the mid 1980s, when the prevailing sci-fi attitude was "hypercapitalist cyberpunk future will doom us all." Culture is not only a critique of idealism, it's a critique of both political and science-fiction pessimism (consider the state of the Western left in the Thatcherite 80s - Banks had a lot to be mad about).

LeGuin's nude photos nicole kidman The Dispossessed but, hey, who listens to female authors anyway? (j/k). The serious point is that LeGuin's . . . topia . . . isn't post-scarcity.

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Mel Mudkiper
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So two questions, then: not just "is this [objectively] good", but also, in addition to that question, also "is this mom and pop porn subjectively better than what came before? Does it point the way to improvement?

I mean, I'm not sure "is this good" is even a useful question to ask absent a definition of literary merit, and if anyone has a definition of literary merit I'd like to see it. There's a reason Chandler doesn't even directly try to answer whether or not school girls sex photos The Maltese Falcon is "a work of genius," and just settles for calling it "important writing" instead.

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Correct and I phrased it poorly (mostly spaceship books is fun to say) - I am only emphasizing it's important to consider the traditions a work came out of in that context as well as whatever baseline ur-context there may also be. Culture wouldn't exist without decades of space opera precedent, but it wouldn't exist without decades of real-world precedent either. It has something to say about both.

Well, it becomes a question of how we measure importance. First of all, there is no objective determination of value. Nothing is ever objectively anything. We create subjective narratives of quality so we can have an agreed upon but ultimately unstable framework with which to interact with a text. So, then, it becomes a question of what subjective framework are we constructing an idea of value.

If we are determining value by a sense of historical significance, than certainly something becomes valuable if it is part of the overall historical evolution of what we have conceived as its "genre." However, in this case, we are not looking at text. We are looking at text as a totem.

However, if we are determining its value on measurement of aesthetics or political value, the distinction of historical value to the genre is irrelevant. Here, text is simply text.

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In the sci-fi context - offering a leftist-informed vision of a post-scarcity future that is neither a utopia nor dystopia, but rather a genuinely nuanced imagined society, is pretty important. There are probably precedents but I don't know any that had the impact of Culture, especially given the time it came out - the mid 1980s, when the prevailing sci-fi attitude was "hypercapitalist cyberpunk future will doom us all."

It's pretty bold to claim that none of the "post-scarcity future" series that preceded the Culture series had as much impact when Star Trek came out 21 years before hand.

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It's pretty bold to claim that none of the "post-scarcity future" series that preceded the Culture series had as much impact when Star Trek came out 21 years before hand.

I thought Star Trek only established the Federation as a communist utopia in TNG, which began in 1987. And the Federation as a setting is never really fleshed out very well anyway.

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Jan 19, 2012

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I thought Star Trek only established the Federation as a communist utopia in TNG, which began in 1987. And the Federation as a setting is never really fleshed out very well anyway.

Nah Star Trek 4 explicitly mentions it and it came up in tos

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It's pretty bold to claim that none of the "post-scarcity future" series that preceded the Culture series had as much impact when Star Trek came out 21 years before hand.

The Federation is essentially left as a vague utopia, at least within its own boundaries and presuming there aren't any Borg near your planet. The main difference between the Federation and the Culture is that the Culture doesn't even pretend to have that pesky 'prime directive" nonsense.

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The Federation is also a state with explicit laws and institutions, run by humans and humans-in-makeup, rather than an anarchy controlled by AI cliques.

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