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SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!

Ok, so. In the space of a week, L5R has gone from a "oh there's a new card game version out, cool", to FFG apparently slapping L5R on everything and anything. After all, why not make use of the property you just bought and squeeze out every last koku from your fanbase, if you're Fantasy Flight Games, who's never been shy on wringing every last drop out of their properties.
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What is Legend of the Five Rings? I thought that was a book by some Japanese Samurai?


You're thinking of the Book of Five Rings, by one Miyamoto Musashi, circa 1635. Apparently, the best wandering swordsman of that era, but has very little to do with L5R.

L5R was a Collectible Card Game made by John Wick, back in the early days of the post-Magic CCG boom. It told the story of Seven Clans (all given a totemic animal as an identifier), and the struggle between the Clans to take over Rokugan after the death of the Emperor:

In Short the Seven Clans are:

Crane: When you think of pretty boy samurai, you're thinking about the Crane. For the longest time, they stayed at the side of the Emperor because in an almost fetishistic way, every Emperor would marry a Crane woman. Had a habit of losing battles but winning wars because they would use their power in the courts to undo their opponents strategems. Also, in a land where any insult can be answered by a duel to the death, the fact that the Crane are the best duelists around means that those who would disparage the Crane too openly either get shamed in front of the court, or in a duel with a swordsman who can cut a silk cloth into individual threads before they hit the ground. Either way is a good way to end up with a blade in your chest.

Crab: If the Crane are the pretty boys, the Crabs are the ugly boys. They have a duty to hold back the Shadowlands, which they do by Making Rokugan Great Again by defending a giant wall. They care little for the niceties of society , mostly because they can't generally practice tea ceremony when an Oni is trying to eat their face (or soul). They did steal the Yasuki family from the Crane, mostly because the Crane really didn't dig the Yasuki being focued on.. ugh.. merchants and all that down to earth thing, and the Crab was glad to have a family who's willing to get their hands (figuratively) dirty to keep the Crab supplied. in the prior fiction, the Crab started the Clan Wars by picking up the idiot ball and deciding it was a good idea to actually ALLY with the Shadowlands to take out the weak Emperor, figuring that they could use the evil forces and then of course kill them afterwards, and everyone would be happy with that.

Dragon: Well, now we get the mystical side. They're one of the more-withdrawn clans in Rokugan, featuring a family of two handed swordsmen (who have a rivalry with the Crane), a family who plays CSI: Rokugan (when most "investigations" involve taking a samurai's word), and the Togashi, a bunch of mystical monks who use tattoos to become super-samurai. Little known fact: Their clan daimyo is actually the clan's founder, who just pretends to hand the baton to the next generation every few years to keep the rubes getting.

Lion: let's see, we have pretty boy samurai, ugly boy samurai, mystic boy samurai.. and now the Lion. I was going to call them the Samurai Boy Samurai, because well, that's their gimmick. They are Ur-Samurai with all the pluses and minuses that can go with it. They are the most militant clan in Rokugan, mostly because well, all they know is being a samurai. Usually the cause of most wars with the Lion are either: "Someone said something bad about us, let's go beat them up to show how good samurai we are", or "The troops are restless, let's go pretend someone said something bad about us so we can beat them up to show how good samurai we are." Hates the Crane with a passion because well, not only will the Cranes not fight and die like "real" samurai, the Crane's politicians usually end up getting the Emperor to invalidate their battles in the field.

Phoenix: Unlike most clans where the Family founded by their Patron Kami is pre-eminent, the Phoenix are mostly led by their top shugenja, due to a pact made by the Clan's founder to protect them so the best shugenja would go and kill Fu Leng. One of the more bookish and mystical clans, the Phoenix have a habit of being the best shugenja in Rokugan, and letting all that power go to their head. like, for example, decide it would be a good idea to summon an Oni to learn all about it in order to fight Fu Leng. They actually do this several times over in past history.

Scorpion: So the Crane are the left hand of the emperor (the courts), the Lion are the right hand of the emperor (the armies), and the Scorpion are the Underhand of the emperor. This means they're dicks. And yes, yes they are dicks. Scorpion are basically a clan of evil viziers who are constantly plotting against all and sundry. Why does everyone keep dealing with them, despite the fact that even one of their families wears masks all the time to say "You can't trust me.. Mwahahaha".. because well, if you're going to do something not so honorable, a Scorpion will be glad to help you do it. Or to do it for you. Or to do it TO you. If the Scorpion DON'T have blackmail on you, you're probably not important enough to bother with. But they are grudgingly tolerated because they do it all FOR THE EMPIRE. Until one of them decides the only way to save the empire from a prophecy is to kill the Emperor's family in line. Infamous for having Bayushi Kachiko, other wise known as "John Wick's Waifu"

Unicorn: Well, let's take a clan of Samurai at the beginning of time, send them to Arabia for a few hundred years, and then come back to scandalize everyone because they missed out on six hundred years of ettiquette lessons. the worst part is, they're powerful enough (with the only clan that has more than a token amount of REAL horses). Infamous for two things, one, having the Kolat (a group dedicated to overthrowing the Celestial Order to bring in an age of man), and, in the original timeline, for having a family named the Otaku. Yes, they played to their not-Japan fanbase by naming a family Otaku. The level of face palm that this caused resulted in the family being renamed the Utaku.

So, there was a CCG, which was rather popular (if known for having hundreds of players shouting BANZAI and UTZ! like Kamikaze pilots before tournaments), and four editions of the Role Playing game, but in 2015, AEG, who had held the rights to L5R for most of it's history (aside from a brief, forgettable interlude with Wizards of the Coast where they tried to make it yet another d20 system) sold it to Fantasy Flight Games, who looked at the 20 years of history and said "you know what? Let's St Elsewhere this bullshit and take it back to basics"

Why did they do that? Because all through L5R's history, they let the result of major tournaments decide where the plot was going. This enabled some interesting tales (At the conclusion of the first major arc, Wick brought envelopes telling with how the story would end depending on which clan won the tournament and killed the Dark God Fu Leng). As the last competitor for each clan was eliminated, Wick ritually destroyed that envelope, and then when the lasst two players asked "Dude, do we have to really go all or nothing in the final?", making up a story on the spot about how BOTH clans leaders led to the final blow.

That worked great. Once.

Then the story got weird as the story team had to write stories two years aheaad that featured the results of tournaments that made NO loving SENSE. Now do that for 20 or so years and four or so generations of samurai. There's only so many times you can introduce the latest "Oh NOES Rokugan is threatened" victim without things getting pretty loving weird. So when Fantasy Flight Games bought L5R and turned it into a LCG, they decided to take it back to the time before the Clan Wars. They changed things around so it wouldn't feel like a rerun, but mostly this is cosmetic (one Clan leader is a woman instead of a man, but still is hooking up with Bayushi Kachiko (some things never change).

More later, including what a LCG is compared to the CCG, why everyone is pissed that the new RPG uses custom dice (of course they do, Fantasy Flight Games gets hard dicks about using wacky custom dice that you have to buy from them, and more about that slut Bayushi Kachiko. And why fourth edition is the best edition of L5R RPG ever, hands down

Actually, no more Kachiko sluttiness. Consider it said already.

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SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!

Well, first off, the joke in the OP is that Fantasy Flight Games is releasing a ton of stuff L5R wise over the coming months:

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The best way to describe Fantasy Flight Games's card games is a Non-Collectible Card Game> What does that mean? Instead of having to buy boxes and boxes of cards (or bang out ludicrous prices to get that ultra-super powerful rare that is the current hotness in competitive play, at most, you will need three core sets to have enough cards to make any deck you want. They DO gouge you a bit (those rare cards are 1 to a core set, so you need 3 to have a full set of every card, but after that, they generally stick to selling limited add on packs, where you will have a playset in the container. Most folks use a subscription service like Team Covenant to skip the middleman of buying them at game stores.

The basis of the game is that you can use any card with your clan symbol (or no clan symbol, meaning they can be played by any clan) in your deck freely when creating a deck, but you also have a limited amount of "splash" points that you can use from other clans (in general, usually named characters are loyal to that faction), but it allows decks within a clan to differentiate themselves, like a Crane deck that splashes lion can stand up to a beat down better, compared to a Crane deck that splashes Scorpion will reinforce the courtly nature of the Crane with some backstabbyness and blackmail of the Scorpion.

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As I said, AEG had released four editions of the RPG, 3 of which tried to set a base timeline to play in (usually the Scorpion Clan Coup or the Clan Wars), the fourth edition was well received because it was timeline neutral, and allowed you to play any time in Rokugan's turbulent history (there were even alternate history campaign settings like "What if the Empress decided that guns and trains would be the way to move Rokugan forward", or "What if Fu Leng won the Second Day of Thunder" or even "What happens 6000 years into Rokugan's future when it's L5R INNNNN SPPPPAAACCCCEEE. They all used the same basic system, using d10's and some kind of Roll and Keep method where 10's could be re-rolled until they rolled a non-10. (called exploding dice), and I'm pretty sure that EVERY RPG group has a story about somebody who tried something really stupid, got told he needed a TN of 50 or something like that, and thanks to the exploding d10's, made it look easy while the GM tried to figure out how to describe how the player just basically broke the laws of physics, gravity, or what have you.

But Fantasy Flight Games are rebels, you see. They decided that d10's are passe. Besides, they can't SELL you dice if they use d10's since your average gamer has about 50 of them, so they love to make custom dice for each of their games. Star Wars makes one system of dice, their generic system Genesys uses ANOTHER die system, and L5R? You guessed it, they ALSO have their own dice system. And no, you can't use their dice from one game for another one. That would be too easy! This has caused great wailing and gnashing of teeth amongst faithful L5R players.

The open beta for the L5R RPG is out, and is going through months of playtesting, currently believed to be a release around GenCon next year (Fantasy Flight Games LOVES to put out major releases at GenCon, I think they dig the wow factor of "You have to stand in line for three hours to buy it! It's a selling point!")

You can download the beta here.

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Board Game:

Called Battle For Rokugan. I'm tired and can't think straight, so more about this poo poo later.

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Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!


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Ok, so. In the space of a week, L5R has gone from a "oh there's a new card game version out, cool", to FFG apparently slapping L5R on everything and anything. After all, why not make use of the property you just bought and squeeze out every last koku from your fanbase, if you're Fantasy Flight Games, who's never been shy on wringing every last drop out of their properties.

I don't see how a card game, an RPG and a board game is this. Seems like basic competence. In fact AEG did the exact same thing, lol

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Jeb Bush 2012
Apr 4, 2007

A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

I was totally ready to try this because I'd like to try a new LCG at the point where there's a more limited card pool and everyone's trying to figure out what works etc.

but they've decided to do the awful "buy three core sets" thing again so gently caress that =/

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PrincessWuffles
Oct 19, 2004



Worked out a scheme with a buddy, since we each are only really interested in one or two clans, so we're each picking up a core, and then going in together on a third. Then, I guess we just alternate buying chapter packs going forward. Teamwork.

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Lord_Hambrose
Nov 21, 2008

*a foul hooting fills the air*


The Beta for the RPG looks really interesting at least. Hoping to try it out in a few weeks.

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Thirsty Dog
May 31, 2007



That sure is an OP

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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


You forgot to tell me which clan is which Game of Thrones house. -7/10

This is certainly the salty-est OP I've ever read for something that should be promoting the game.

Should I buy into the CCG that gouges me for those valuable rare cards or the RPG that's pissing people off by using a non-standard dice system. Maybe I should wait and see what you write about Battle for Rokugan when you can actually think...decisions.

In conclusion this OP is biased, ill informed, represents minority opinions and lacks substantial information about the games and world. It's exactly what I would expect out of an old hardcore AEG L5R player. Keep those blinders on and may the design team favor your clan.

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Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!


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In conclusion this OP is biased, ill informed, represents minority opinions and lacks substantial information about the games and world. It's exactly what I would expect out of an old hardcore AEG L5R player. Keep those blinders on and may the design team favor your clan.
It's pretty indicative of like 90% of the player base from what I've experienced so from that angle it's pretty useful.

I'd love to find a group to play L5R 4e with that would be properly down to houseruling the problems the system has out (or at least mitigating them) and also be interested in having characters who want to actually naked fashion show video do poo poo instead of RPing Samurai Barbie's Tea Party every session while NPCs handle the oni rampaging through the countryside and the kolat plotting yet another assassination of the emperor, etc.

...not that I'm bitter from a string of unfortunate groups or anything.

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You forgot to tell me which clan is which Game of Thrones house. -7/10

This is certainly the salty-est OP I've ever read for something that should be promoting the game.

Should I buy into the CCG that gouges me for those valuable rare cards or the RPG that's pissing people off by using a non-standard dice system. Maybe I should wait and see what you write about Battle for Rokugan when you can actually think...decisions.

In conclusion this OP is biased, ill informed, represents minority opinions and lacks substantial information about the games and world. It's exactly what I would expect out of an old hardcore AEG L5R player. Keep those blinders on and may the design team favor your clan.
Lannister=crane/scorpion
Greyjoy=mantis
Martell=unicorn
Stark=crab
Bara=lion
Targ=phoenix
Arryn=dragon

Also I largely agree with your thoughts on the OP. as someone who played the original I'm more than happy to no longer have to pay $60+ for a play set of key cards. For any actual card game 100 for a full set with some extras is a great deal

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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


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Lannister=crane/scorpion
Greyjoy=mantis
Martell=unicorn
Stark=crab
Bara=lion
Targ=phoenix
Arryn=dragon

Also I largely agree with your thoughts on the OP. as someone who played the original I'm more than happy to no longer have to pay $60+ for a play set of key cards. For any actual card game 100 for a full set with some extras is a great deal

I came to L5R from M:tG so I just expected to pay the prices I did, not knowing any better.

$60 for a playset of Storm Heart
$40 for a playset of Show of Good Faith
$80 for a playset of Prayers and Blessings

Disagree with your assessment of the GoT houses but I was making a dumb joke so I don't want go into it further.

Also now we get to pay $60 for swag promos but at least they're just alt art.

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It's pretty indicative of like 90% of the player base from what I've experienced so from that angle it's pretty useful.

I'd love to find a group to play L5R 4e with that would be properly down to houseruling the problems the system has out (or at least mitigating them) and also be interested in having characters who want to actually sex on security cam do poo poo instead of RPing Samurai Barbie's Tea Party every session while NPCs handle the oni rampaging through the countryside and the kolat plotting yet another assassination of the emperor, etc.

...not that I'm bitter from a string of unfortunate groups or anything.

Yeah, he mentions people liked the L5R 4E RPG but I never met anyone who did. It was received almost as poorly as the D&D 4th Ed, except that L5R players were a lot more forgiving about it because god forbid they ever bit the hand that fed them. Though I guess ironically AEG did finally end up stop making L5R so...

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SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!

Actually, I am looking forward to the new LCG.. as I said, I thought the story had some flaws, and now the new team has a chance to change things around and avoid some past mistakes. As for the RPG, part of it is indeed some frustration that FFG can't appear to settle on a dice system, as Genesys, Star Wars and now L5R apparently use custom dice systems that are not alike.. if you think I'M salty, you should see the reaction at the FFG and elsewhere... actually don't because the salt is overflowing. The grognards are FURIOUS that they can't use their d10 like they have since the start.

I've had two friends tell me that they flat out won't play the new system because they did something more than make the most minor alterations to the 4th edition system. (It also happened wih 7th Sea for some reason). But 4th edition... they basically got everything they could out of the system. I loved the timeline neutral base book, along with all the settings that came in the imperial histories (including the People's Rebellion), but what was left for them to write?

Part of the salt was going silent for such a long time on everything but the LCG, then it's just overwhelming. "Buy the playmats. Buy the board game, oh did we mention the RPG in Beta?"

I was hoping to be properly groggy/irreverent with describing the clans, the fact that I was doing it on 3 hours sleep probably was a horrible idea. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

edit: Wait, I really must have done it wrong if you think I'm making GBS threads on the LCG model compared to the CCG model. Having to pay $20-25 for a piece of cardboard that I need three of to be halfway competitive and actually have a half chance of winning a round at a Kotei sucked. I look at it as an investment to start, but a hell of a lot cheaper to maintain my addiction.

Anyway, I'll try to rewrite the OP at some point this weekend (going to a launch event in Boston tonight, and my three cores showed up today so I'm actually going to be able to try it out.

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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


The gripe about the 3 Cores thing is never that you have to buy 3 of them, it's that in having to buy 3 you end up having all these extra cards for clans you won't use(except you will use some of them because of influence but whatever).

People have the most rose colored glasses of the old game, or CCGs in general of that one time they opened 1 of the rares they needed for a playset and managed to trade for the other two, meaning they got their deck built for one arc, only buying ~$30 worth of boosters. Most people I knew invested in booster boxes, so when a new Stronghold came out, they ended up paying over $100USD just to get naked college frat boys a piece of what they needed to play and hoping that they can trade/resell cards in order to fill out their playsets. I was the type of guy that wanted a playset of everything and it was just ridiculous to try in L5R.

Some of the earlier LCGs had better gripes about the amount of 'wasted' product they're buying but it's really gotten a lot better and by having L5R be almost totally 1-offs makes is easily the best use of the 3 core model thus far.

Also LOL at you being angry at them going quiet. It's been almost 3 months since Star Wars LCG had an update. Just wait for the bloom to fall off the rose for FFG and come back to me in 5 years when FFG doesn't even include upcoming releases in their State of the Game address.

edit: You also failed to mention the argument over "Utz/Banzai".

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Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!


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Yeah, he mentions people liked the L5R 4E RPG but I never met anyone who did. It was received almost as poorly as the D&D 4th Ed, except that L5R players were a lot more forgiving about it because extreme lesbian ass licking god forbid they ever bit the hand that fed them. Though I guess ironically AEG did finally end up stop making L5R so...
That's weird because literally everyone I talked to said the same thing: 4e fixed a ton of poo poo that was incredibly bad & wrong in 3e and (pick one) is the best edition/is second best and 1e is bestest. But it might have something to do with that bolded part because my god does that fan base hate (a) homebrew/houserules of any sort, (b) PCs that effect any changes in their world, (c) PCs with ambitions beyond "serve my daimyo until I die", and (d) any changes at all to anything, even the most minor of flavor texts.

It's totally arcane to me; I had one guy in an L5R IRC channel throw an absolute tantrum at me because I wanted to make a crystal sword (because that would be effectively a magic item and PCs aren't allowed to have those, ever) and have the crystal be labradorite (because it doesn't perfectly match the description of the material given for Crystal in some book somewhere) and then had a bunch of the people in the channel back him up because despite being Rank 4 with Glory 9 I should still be loving around with begging to borrow a horse and an extra koku so I can eat tennesse sex offender registry and sleep indoors.

I just want a group I can try a thing with.

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The gripe about the 3 Cores thing is never that you have to buy 3 of them, it's that in having to buy 3 you end up having all these extra cards for clans you won't use(except you will use some of them because of influence but whatever).


I'm hoping I can find some folks to trade with. An extra playset or two of Scorpion would be great, and more Crane/Dragon cards for influence splashing would be cool too. The other clans I would happily give up their cards.

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edit: You also failed to mention the argument over "Utz/Banzai".

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Jeb Bush 2012
Apr 4, 2007

A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

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edit: You also failed to mention the argument over "Utz/Banzai".
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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


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FFG just canned it and I couldn't be happier.

Indeed, the new chant for anyone that missed it:



Rokugan Chant

Leaders: For Honor!
Competitors: Honor!
Leaders: For Glory!
Competitors: Glory!
Leaders: For Rokugan!
Competitors: Rokugan!

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Wow sad to see yet another poor company yielding to the cultural marxists and their tyrannical PC agenda.

(I am surprised they actually changed it)

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It's pretty indicative of like 90% of the player base from what I've experienced so from that angle it's pretty useful.

I'd love to find a group to play L5R 4e with that would be properly down to houseruling the problems the system has out (or at least mitigating them) and also be interested in having characters who want to actually different position in sex do poo poo instead of RPing Samurai Barbie's Tea Party every session while NPCs handle the oni rampaging through the countryside and the kolat plotting yet another assassination of the emperor, etc.

...not that I'm bitter from a string of unfortunate groups or anything.

Sounds like you’d love my group. We play either 4E or heavily houseryled 1E.

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I came to L5R from M:tG so I just expected to pay the prices I did, not knowing any better.

$60 for a playset of Storm Heart
$40 for a playset of Show of Good Faith
$80 for a playset of Prayers and Blessings

Disagree with your assessment of the GoT houses but I was making a dumb joke so I don't want go into it further.

Also now we get to pay $60 for swag promos but at least they're just alt art.
Yeah I also played MtG (still do to some extent) so it was still a discount to me but yeah.

Also I figured I'd add the GoT house thing to make the goofy OP complete. Although I still think my list is perfect

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Jeb Bush 2012
Apr 4, 2007

A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

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Indeed, the new chant for anyone that missed it:



Rokugan Chant

Leaders: For Honor!
Competitors: Honor!
Leaders: For Glory!
Competitors: Glory!
Leaders: For Rokugan!
Competitors: Rokugan!

it's great that they've removed the weird offensive part but this is still so cringeworthy

is ritual chanting at tournaments really a thing the potential playerbase demands

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The banzai poo poo is dumb for a number of reasons and I'm glad it's gone. When they call snap elections in the Diet and House of Representatives is dissolved, like they just did, tradition dictates for the MP's are to chant banzai as part of the code of conduct. A minister, former Prime Minister Koizumi's son, said it was stupid and they shouldn't be doing illogical stupid poo poo just because it's tradition.

Anyone bitching about FFG's lust for money when it comes to LCG's has never seen the aftermath of a Magic tournament or people opening up lots of packs. Players throw away 50%-80% of their cards from new packs away because it's unusable garbage or duplicates of stuff they have, rares included. It sucks I have to make a one time investment into this game to play competitively but it's nowhere near the money pit that is a CCG.

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it's great that they've removed the weird offensive part but this is still so cringeworthy

is ritual chanting at tournaments really a thing the potential playerbase demands

IDK but I will literally never do it. I'm just glad it's not Banzai anymore.

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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


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is ritual chanting at tournaments really a thing the potential playerbase demands

I like the chanting because 1) it was amusing to think that Magic players were somehow intimidated by a vocal group of non-M:tG players, but really 2) it was part and parcel of the whole package that was the L5R experience.

Other key elements of the L5R experience included:

Sitting across from a fat neck beard who knew all the lore and explained the lore motivations behind the card choices he made in his deck; it always ended with a story about 'the good old days when the game was pure'.

Not getting the trades you needed and having to go find Yasuki Jeremy before the trade began and paying his hiked up prices so you could finish your deck, then selling him all the outdated, unopened product you got afterwards so you could have money to hit up a Denny's or whatever was still open at 2am. Last tournament I was at when I was getting out of the game, he took my poo poo rare binder off me for like $100, which I then spent on buying a couple prints from Malcolm McClintock(he did not have Traveling Ronin which was the one I wanted) along with a large painting he did that was a piece of rejected art for Warlord which was a Gandalf Looking Wizard getting kicked in the groin by a young female apprentice looking character; my friends and I called it 'Counterspell'.

Back to the chanting, it's a fun part of the community aspect of the game, it makes some people uncomfortable but whatever, normally I'm pretty accepting which is why I didn't bother weighing in on the culturally insensitive part of it, but as suspected I think a number of players were just made uncomfortable by being a part of anything that brings attention to them and crying 'offensive' to get the chanting banned was the real goal. There's still plenty of poo poo in the game itself that people should be complaining about but aren't as vocal so whatever...

At the end of the day I guess my position is that I could really take or leave the chanting but the people who are vocally against it bias me more towards being pro-chanting simply because I don't want to be associated with them.

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Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!


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Anyone bitching about FFG's lust for money when it comes to LCG's has never seen the aftermath of a Magic tournament or people opening up lots of packs. Players throw away 50%-80% of their cards from new packs away because it's unusable garbage or duplicates of stuff they have, rares included. It sucks I have to make a one time investment into this game to play competitively but it's nowhere near the money pit that is a CCG.
This is why advice for people starting out in MtG is "go to tournaments, especially drafts." Sure you might not win per se, but you're likely to make your money back in some form if you sweep up all the leavings. I've seen people hand new players their whole draft decks once a tournament is done with because it's literally 100% stuff they already have.

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Bakeneko
Jan 9, 2007



I liked the 4th edition RPG, or at least aspects of it. Enough to have a lot of fun with it for a while.

Thing is, the parts I enjoyed always happened to be the parts that AEG didn’t seem to care about, and vice versa. I loved the minor clans, the ronin, the monks, the nonhumans and even the foreigners… but the Great Clans and their endless bickering bored me to tears most of the time. I think it was because the Great Clans were designed to more closely parallel the CCG, which I didn’t play, while the creative team had more chances to be actually be creative when it came to the other stuff and design things that worked better in an RPG format.

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But it might have something to do with that bolded part because my god does that fan base hate (a) homebrew/houserules of any sort, (b) PCs that effect any changes in their world, (c) PCs with ambitions beyond "serve my daimyo until I die", and (d) any changes at all to anything, even the most minor of flavor texts.

No kidding. I ended up writing a bunch of homebrew mechanics centring on those lesser-seen aspects of the setting and I got my share of nasty comments about them. Some people got super mad at the notion of a peasant or a foreigner being as strong as their precious Great Clan samurai.

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Jeb Bush 2012
Apr 4, 2007

A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

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Anyone bitching about FFG's lust for money when it comes to LCG's has never seen the aftermath of a Magic tournament or people opening up lots of packs. Players throw away 50%-80% of their cards from new packs away because it's unusable garbage or duplicates of stuff they have, rares included. It sucks I have to make a one time investment into this game to play competitively but it's nowhere near the money pit that is a CCG.
the LCG model is generally quite good, that's why it's weird and frustrating that they handle the coresets this way

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I like the chanting because 1) it was amusing to think that Magic players were somehow intimidated by a vocal group of non-M:tG players, but really 2) it was part and parcel of the whole package that was the L5R experience.

Other key elements of the L5R experience included:

Sitting across from a fat neck beard who knew all the lore and explained the lore motivations behind the card choices he made in his deck; it always ended with a story about 'the good old days when the game was pure'.

Not getting the trades you needed and having to go find Yasuki Jeremy before the trade began and paying his hiked up prices so you could finish your deck, then selling him all the outdated, unopened product you got afterwards so you could have money to hit up a Denny's or whatever was still open at 2am. Last tournament I was at when I was getting out of the game, he took my poo poo rare binder off me for like $100, which I then spent on buying a couple prints from Malcolm McClintock(he did not have Traveling Ronin which was the one I wanted) along with a large painting he did that was a piece of rejected art for Warlord which was a Gandalf Looking Wizard getting kicked in the groin by a young female apprentice looking character; my friends and I called it 'Counterspell'.

Back to the chanting, it's a fun part of the community aspect of the game, it makes some people uncomfortable but whatever, normally I'm pretty accepting which is why I didn't bother weighing in on the culturally insensitive part of it, but as suspected I think a number of players were just made uncomfortable by being a part of anything that brings attention to them and crying 'offensive' to get the chanting banned was the real goal. There's still plenty of poo poo in the game itself that people should be complaining about but aren't as vocal so whatever...

At the end of the day I guess my position is that I could really take or leave the chanting but the people who are vocally against it bias me more towards being pro-chanting simply because I don't want to be associated with them.

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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


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the LCG model is generally quite good, that's why it's weird and frustrating that they handle the coresets this way



Of course after I say that I see that Kempy Nezumi moron is firmly prominent in the pro-chant side, so I guess it's back to the middle for me.

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Geisladisk
Sep 14, 2007



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Of course after I say that I see that Kempy Nezumi moron is firmly prominent in the pro-chant side, so I guess it's back to the middle for me.

Are we supposed to know who "Kempy Nezumi" is? I love how years after they canned it, there lingers a incestuous community of weirdos who all hate each other and bicker about absolutely nothing.

I played L5R for a while. I remember a few people were really weird about it. More than one person wore a kimono to every tournament. I remember the chanting thing, and I thought it was just my local weirdos being loving weird and uncomfortable. Turns out it's actually a mandated tournament thing? Jesus. Can we just play our little card game without yelling, like adults?

L5R was a cool little cardgame that was a magnet for obsessive weirdos for some god drat reason. The obsessive strangeness of the community was a large part of why I stopped playing it. The community organizer pestered me for literally years after I quit to come to tournaments, because it would give him online samuraipoints or whatever if more people showed up.

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MadDogMike
Apr 9, 2008

Can I come out and play?

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I liked the 4th edition RPG, or at least aspects of it. Enough to have a lot of fun with it for a while.

Thing is, the parts I enjoyed always happened to be the parts that AEG didn’t seem to care about, and vice versa. I loved the minor clans, the ronin, the monks, the nonhumans and even the foreigners… but the Great Clans and their endless bickering bored me to tears most of the time. I think it was because the Great Clans were designed to more closely parallel the CCG, which I didn’t play, while the creative team had more chances to be actually be creative when it came to the other stuff and design things that worked better in an RPG format.


No kidding. I ended up writing a bunch of homebrew mechanics centring on those lesser-seen aspects of the setting and I got my share of nasty comments about them. Some people got super mad at the notion of a peasant or a foreigner being as strong as their precious Great Clan samurai.

Yeah, that was kind of a thing I REALLY hope they strip out of the RPG at least. Ronin in particular; you look at how many samurai movies and stories revolve around ronin (hell, a major arc in the L5R storyline features an army of them) and it's crazy why they decide to make them innately suck as a play option compared to the Clans. If all they have is their fighting skills to draw on, setting them up to fail with those is just dumb. The Scorpions also need a little care; I kind of like the "so loyal they willingly act as monsters for those they serve so their lords don't have to" portrayal I've seen, but feels like too many times they get played as the evil character in a good party, which rarely ends well.

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unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

It's exceptionally-weird to be so anti-ronin when the name of your game comes from a book by a dude who was absolutely not a loyal samurai serving a lord but a wandering murderhobo who beat people up with boat oars.

Also, while yeah, the L5R dice are definitely different, the Genesys dice are identical to the Star Wars dice just with generic symbols instead of Star-Warsy ones. The distribution and meaning of the symbols is the same.

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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


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Are we supposed to know who "Kempy Nezumi" is? I love how years after they canned it, there lingers a incestuous community of weirdos who all hate each other and bicker about absolutely nothing.

If you follow the FB group at all you'll see him post all over the place. He first caught my radar as a guy that went out of his way to post about how the game was dead and the new FFG game was going to be garbage long before we ever saw a thing about it beyond the initial press release saying they were remaking it. I have no idea who he is in real life.

The only L5R personality I think I could really remember, aside from Yasuki Jeremy, was Jeff Alexander, one of the rules guys. The only reason I really remember him is that I played against him in one of my later Koteis when I had a grasp on what I was doing and destroyed him. I recall he came in like the bottom 2-3 players out of 40. I would have bet that he was there just losing on purpose since he was a rules team guy but having played him, I can say, he was not good at the game when I played him.

Also the problem you describe here wasn't limited to L5R, Doomtown, original and Reloaded, had the same insular community.

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FFG just canned it and I couldn't be happier.

gently caress YES. Just read that, that stupid chant was something that had the potential to keep me away.

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Lightning Lord
Feb 21, 2013

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It's pretty indicative of like 90% of the player base from what I've experienced so from that angle it's pretty useful.

I'd love to find a group to play L5R 4e with that would be properly down to houseruling the problems the system has out (or at least mitigating them) and also be interested in having characters who want to actually aylar lie porn videos do poo poo instead of RPing Samurai Barbie's Tea Party every session while NPCs handle the oni rampaging through the countryside and the kolat plotting yet another assassination of the emperor, etc.

...not that I'm bitter from a string of unfortunate groups or anything.

I came to L5R pretty late, picking up the 4e corebook partially because of how pretty it looked. My experience with Rokugan beforehand was owning the D&D 3e Oriental Adventures book and trying to get into the card game but bouncing off hard. I really like 4e because of the timeline neutral approach, plus stuff like all the alternate universes and what if scenarios. It just felt like it was welcoming newbies to do what they will with the game. I've gone back and skimmed the older editions and it's night and day IMO.

Anyway, because the group I played with were all new to L5R, we didn't care about any of that poo poo you mention. We're attracted to the game because we want to play colorful samurai who belong to animal themed clans, we're not Rokugani history majors. I think it's cool and fine if you want to try to get into a different headspace than our society when you elfgame, but I'm not going to punish people because they investigated a crime using evidence when they're not a member of the Dragon clan family that does that, or they forget to use a particular honorific or some poo poo. I think there are more players like this out there, they're just not terribly vocal in L5R fan groups because the type of people you're bringing up here are domineering jerks.

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SuperKlaus
Oct 19, 2005
Like Klaus but better

I mean it's no surprise that RPG players as a rule are awful, poison-minded grogs and weirdos, present posting company excepted until proven guilty as always. This forum hosted tens of thousands of grognards.txt thread posts, remember. I am very bullish at the moment about the new RPG edition but to address my concerns I am keeping my interaction strictly limited to emailing the design team directly, per their invitation. I have sent one email already and sincerely hope they respond and are honestly interested in actually editing the game for the better, unlike with the Star Wars game line betas, which were pointless. I will not post on the FFG forums. There is no point. One only exposes oneself to the worst "we need extended rules for pregnancy" sorts there.

By posting here I toe the line on my "do not engage" rule but I think all y'all on SA are a reasonable lot!

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It's exceptionally-weird to be so anti-ronin when the name of your game comes from a book by a dude who was absolutely not a loyal samurai serving a lord but a wandering murderhobo who beat people up with boat oars.

For real. Ronin are dynamic and especially appealing if you do not want to break away from Rokugan's 1000 years of peace. If you're going to observe the official highly stable setting, it's awkward sometimes to find cause for samurai to go adventurin'. It never helps that players always want to be from four or five different bloody Clans. It's why we've got that tired "you're all Emerald Magistrates" party concept. Ronin avoid that - like it's not for no reason Usagi Yojimbo, to name one example of so many, was a wandering ronin for all those comic book issues full of stories. One small concern I have in 5E is the punishment placed on low-Honor characters. You shouldn't discourage someone who wants to play against type as, say, a ronin disillusioned with the whole system because he's the bastard son of a lord and a prostitute, and it's especially weird to do it while officially labeling "zero Honor" as "I Make My Own Code" - that sounds like a dynamic and interesting personality that should not get penalized.

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The Scorpions also need a little care; I kind of like the "so loyal they willingly act as monsters for those they serve so their lords don't have to" portrayal I've seen, but feels like too many times they get played as the evil character in a good party, which rarely ends well.

Hear, hear. L5R nerds, like other nerds, have a real problem with autistic latching onto lazy stereotypes. Know how all Wookiees swear life debts and all Rodians are slimy bounty hunters? L5R nerds are so bad with that sort of poo poo and it's particularly rough for the Scorpion. Incredibly lazy content writers never help. It seems there are only ever two things samurai fight in L5R modules: Shadowlands critters and Scorpions. Real deep setting that revolves around human emotional conflict you got there. "My Good Marine Samurai attacks the Chaos Beast of Fu Leng and the Officially Designated Evil Marine Samurai."

Anyway, I'm bullish on this in 5E too; the giri and ninjo focus, as well as the note in each Clan's intro of a virtue of bushido it downplays or outright ignores, suggests that maybe *this time* we'll get official product focused on humans doing things to humans for human reasons, and the Scorpion won't be so easily-and-lazily-labeled when one is reminded that the honorable Lion don't mind smacking peasants around and the wise Dragon disobey orders and cheat on their spouses.

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The amount of people on the official forum insisting that this rpg is nothing like a real L5R rpg because:

A peasent can't one shot a rank 6 samurai and other lethality complaints. (Mostly of the 'waaa I can't one shot my players if they are bad samurai' variety)

A crane samurai is no longer impossible to match in a duel, because dueling uses regular battles basically

You can make supernatural weapons, armor, and items as early as rank 5, when previously only gods and fiat could make them.

Scorpion clan hasn't attempted a coup and isn't being portrayed as always evil, and instead as being a necessary evil to fight evil in Rokugan

Strife system meaning their perfect samurai PC might be forced to show emotion sometimes, and not be able to have perfect bushido all the time forever.


Meanwhile all of these things seem like pretty good changes to me, personally.

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Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!


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Meanwhile all of these things seem like pretty good changes to me, personally.
Yeah I mean that's all poo poo I'd back-port in a fat man's heartbeat if I were to do 4e again.

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