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SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!

One thing I really liked from the old Way of the Scorpion book is how to play a "good" Scorpion.. as I said in the OP, the image in the game is all Scorpion are cackling viziers who all have nine different plots running to disgrace people for the, if you'll forgive the temporal term, "lulz". I wish I could copy the whole section on loyalty, especially if they are loyal to the party.. Then, if you DO have to do the sudden but inevitable treachery, it means something more than "Oh, the Scorpion's doing what Scorpion's always do. *yawn*

Each clan can be villains in their own way, which makes for a better way

Crane's snobbery and disdaining anything outside their gilded halls,
The Crab obsession with Strength that led to the Clan Wars,
The Dragon being hidden and unknowable meaning they're doing something for what they consider good reasons but looks like insanity to you..
The Lion being the "Dark side of bushido", meaning they bully all others and grossly upset the balance of things. "If the rest of the Clans can not hold their lands from us, they don't deserve them!"
The Mantis Always trying to take that "next step" (family name, minor clan, absorbing other minor clans, great family, the war with the Phoenix, etcetera)
The Phoenix Well, the Phoenix love their Oni summoning. (For Science don't you know.)
The Unicorn well, they're kinda like the Crab in that they are more willing to do things that violate the unwritten compact in Rokugan, mostly because they weren't around when the compact came to be.

If you're relying on Scorpion to be your villains, you either need to make them unique, or you're going to just have a paint by numbers experience

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Apr 17, 2012

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The amount of people on the official forum insisting that this rpg is nothing like a real L5R rpg because:

A peasent can't one shot a rank 6 samurai and other lethality complaints. (Mostly of the 'waaa I can't one shot my players if they are bad samurai' variety)

A crane samurai is no longer impossible to match in a duel, because dueling uses regular battles basically

You can make supernatural weapons, armor, and items as early as rank 5, when previously only gods and fiat could make them.

Scorpion clan hasn't attempted a coup and isn't being portrayed as always evil, and instead as being a necessary evil to fight evil in Rokugan

Strife system meaning their perfect samurai PC might be forced to show emotion sometimes, and not be able to have perfect bushido all the time forever.


Meanwhile all of these things seem like pretty good changes to me, personally.

For these reasons I'm already liking the new L5R...but yeah, there are grogs around me who hate it for those reasons too. A lot of old L5R players seem to be in the "no fun allowed crowd."

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Aramoro
Jun 1, 2012



One thing that kinda matters is that to most of the population in Rokugan the Scorpion are not evil plotting ninja fucks. There's no real reason for other characters to distrust a Scorpion in particular, emnity between Clans is mostly based on borders.

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One thing that kinda matters is that to most of the population in Rokugan the Scorpion are not evil plotting ninja fucks. There's no real reason for other characters to distrust a Scorpion in particular, emnity between Clans is mostly based on borders.

Peasants in Scorpion lands tend to love their masters because they have lots of festivals to ensure the masses are placated.

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Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006

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I could swear I remember reading in the 4E book that Scorpion peasants are basically the best-treated and happiest of any clan's peasants.

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KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

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Scorpions are Villains from a Bushido standpoint bit they aren't villainous to society. They're the ones who understand that the emperor needs to keep his hands clean and to look like a shining paragon. They're the ones that, when a high imperial official is found to be jigoku tainted will assassinate this man who looks like a sterling example of samurai virtue, so that no one realizes that someone so close to the emperor was corrupted, because people might lose hope. They're the ones who take the fall in taking an underhanded tactic like poisoning an outside enemy's water supplies because otherwise those enemies may burn down hundreds of miles of territory, if attempted to be matched honorably.

They're the clan that understands that allow the rest of the clans to pretend to be honorable and full of Bushido spirit, without it causing the empire to crumble from their idiocy.

But then super early in the first storyline they all turned evil and tried to kill everyone and take over for what turned out to basically be a trick that they never really recovered from? I don't know the card game lore that well, but it meant that for the non setting timeline neutral rpgs (not 4e basically) every edition explained them as being evil usurper who had been thrown down and banished. Which I feel sunk into the collective consciousness even in 4e pre coup timeline stuff.



Edit: to take what I said in discord:


It's easy to portray them as That Guy in a party who you know will betray you, but what he should be is 'oh you really hate that guy for killing your dad, but it would be wrong to seek revenge due to bushido? Yeah fam I get you no problem, oops he fell down some stairs into a bowl of poison soup filled with katanas what a tragic accident my friend.'



Another big fluff complaint I'm seeing on the forums that makes this no true L5R is that it's more permissive to breaking bushido, even infront of your daimyo. They have tables of honor hits and stuff, and have fluff that says daimyo can handle minor outbursts even if it dishonors the samurai a bit, they won't jump to SEPPUKU all the time. Small dishonor is fine and expected, breaking bushido isn't Normal but it's Not Life Ending.

Lots of grogs are mad about the idea that you don't have to SEPPUKU over everything.

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Geisladisk
Sep 14, 2007



Scorpion being pragmatic ends-justify-the-means types that are better samurai than samurai because they aren't as beholden to a choking set of impractical and ultimately arbitrary rules owns.

Of course, this allowed for some interesting plot points about some Scorpion really being self-serving amoral pricks, which caused incompetent nerd-lore writers to flanderize them into cackling anime villains at lightning speed.

L5R's lore follows a trajectory very typical for nerd-game fictional universes. It is built on interesting themes and concepts, and ultimately collapses into a pile of wank under the weight of years of bad writing. See also: Warhammer 40k.

All the clans' archetypes are interesting double-edged swords with a lot of potential for good storyteling and conflict, but each clan was gradually flanderized into a one-dimensional caricature. Crab is another good example of this, and gradually stopped being rugged, no-nonsense warriors forced into self-reliance and became BIG MUSCLE MAN NO UNDERSTAND CRANE SMART-TALK, ANGRY NOW

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Cinnamon Bear
Aug 29, 2016



Despite my complaining in the chat thread I really would like to see L5R take off in a better direction at FFG and I think a lot of the changes are very positive (especially the timeline reset). I just wish some of the changes were even more drastic. I'll probably wind up withholding further commentary until the final product comes out (and the card game has had a cycle to establish itself as any good).

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Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic

My big issue with the RPG is that FFG usually doesn't do PDFs, and the dice are a pain to replicate online without a separate tool. A friend made a IRC dicebot for their Star Wars RPG but it's obviously incompatible with L5R.

The rest of the folks I usually play with are more or less "It's neat but why wouldn't I just play more 4E when getting into the new edition looks to be a bitch?"

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Cinnamon Bear
Aug 29, 2016



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My big issue with the RPG is that FFG usually doesn't do PDFs, and the dice are a pain to replicate online without a separate tool. A friend made a IRC dicebot for their Star Wars RPG but it's obviously incompatible with L5R.

The rest of the folks I usually play with are more or less "It's neat but why wouldn't I just play more 4E when getting into the new edition looks to be a bitch?"

the no-pdf thing has to do with the star wars license, they have pdfs of all other RPGs they publish (and have published)

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Argas
Jan 13, 2008
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the no-pdf thing has to do with the star wars license, they have pdfs of all other RPGs they publish (and have published)

Huh. I wasn't aware. That'll help a little but the dice will still be an obstacle. Still, not a great many reasons to get it at launch but worth keeping an eye on.

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Mugaaz
Mar 1, 2008


Any word if the remake of the L5R LCG is any good?

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Any word if the remake of the L5R LCG is any good?

With the caveat I've not played many games I would say it is good. Its slow and thoughful, every turn is a massive bag of choices. The sheer level of choices and interaction is somewhat dizzying, its not a casual game i would say.

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May 31, 2007



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Any word if the remake of the L5R LCG is any good?

It's excellent, but there's a lot of complicated decision points.

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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


It's more forgiving than the previous game though.

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Feb 21, 2013

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Huh. I wasn't aware. That'll help a little but the dice will still be an obstacle. Still, not a great many reasons to get it at launch but worth keeping an eye on.

If it's anything like their other games it'll be easy enough to assign numbers to the symbols while you wait for a proper dice roller to be made.

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Hail Mr. Satan!
Oct 3, 2009


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I played L5R for a while. I remember a few people were really weird about it. More than one person wore a kimono to every tournament.

Hahaha about this: my best friend was one of these people, and even though he didn't wear it to EVERY tournament, he played Scorpion and had some courtier getup, with fan included.

One year he wore it to Gencon and wound up on one of those Buzzfeed "Worst cosplay ever" lists. We mocked him for months after it.

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Hahaha about this: my best friend was one of these people, and even though he didn't wear it to EVERY tournament, he played Scorpion and had some courtier getup, with fan included.

One year he wore it to Gencon and wound up on one of those Buzzfeed "Worst cosplay ever" lists. We mocked him for months after it.

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Fetterkey
May 4, 2013

Even without the events of forty years ago, I think man would still be a creature that fears the dark.


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Any word if the remake of the L5R LCG is any good?

IMO yes. It has relatively simple core mechanics but plays them out very interestingly. It's also probably the most comeback-friendly of the LCGs I've played.

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SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!

The game is a lot more back and forth then the CCG, you don't have the self-playing Honor deck for example, and the fate mechanic means that you can go breaking provinces quickly or go at them hard, but not both.

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Oct 19, 2005
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I'll probably wind up withholding further commentary until the final product comes out (and the card game has had a cycle to establish itself as any good).

Don't! If the beta is remotely honest about its existence, it's here to edit and improve the final product. Get your input in while the getting's purportedly good. Me, I have high hopes for ~developer-kun noticing me~ because I feel I've offered serious game input that I pray stands out from the hordes of flavor-text-nonsense-obsessed grogs.

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The game is a lot more back and forth then the CCG, you don't have the self-playing Honor deck for example, and the fate mechanic means that you can go breaking provinces quickly or go at them hard, but not both.

I like that a lot. As a lifelong Shadowlands/Spider player (except for a brief detour into pirate raid Mantis), I felt like Honor could play against me without my actions mattering, and Dishonor for an opponent was usually an autowin for me.

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Hail Mr. Satan!
Oct 3, 2009


BTW, that's the one sad thing about FFG compared to the old CCG: AEG kind of threw poo poo at the walls and didn't even bother to see if it stuck before throwing something else. That led to a lot of really stupid, fun archetypes, like pirate raid Mantis, the old Ninja stronghold, etc that I don't think we'll see in a more structured game.

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Sep 10, 2003

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BTW, that's the one sad thing about FFG compared to the old CCG: AEG kind of threw poo poo at the walls and didn't even bother to see if it stuck before throwing something else. That led to a lot of really stupid, fun archetypes, like pirate raid Mantis, the old Ninja stronghold, etc that I don't think we'll see in a more structured game.
Counterpoint: a more structured game might just cum in daughters pussy decide to make pirate raid mantis or ninja stronghold decks A Definite Thing because while I haven't a loving clue what those phrases mean, they sound and the type of thing any game should have.

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Counterpoint: a more structured game might just juliette binoche sex video decide to make pirate raid mantis or ninja stronghold decks A Definite Thing because while I haven't a loving clue what those phrases mean, they sound and the type of thing any game should have.

Pirate raids were cool, you literally had two battle phases, the first one didn't have casualties, but if you won, you could steal the gold from their holdings.

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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


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BTW, that's the one sad thing about FFG compared to the old CCG: AEG kind of threw poo poo at the walls and didn't even bother to see if it stuck before throwing something else. That led to a lot of really stupid, fun archetypes, like pirate raid Mantis, the old Ninja stronghold, etc that I don't think we'll see in a more structured game.

Different designer but the Netrunner 'Caissa' was pretty interesting and different in terms of design.

The last couple Star Wars LCG cycles have also added in different types of mechanics.

I think it really comes down to where the designers want to take the game. In some games they really like to play it close to the core and not introduce a lot of cards that don't function like other cards, and in other games the designers want to completely flesh out every aspect of the core design before they move on.

Also don't forget that for every mechanic they made that turned into something good and fun, there was one that was either broken as gently caress and completely unbalanced the game, or one was that absolute garbage: I'm looking at you Ninjitsu!

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Mar 6, 2006

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Where does this term come from?

Reference to the Simpsons character of Ned Flanders, who started out as a nice neighbor who happened to be Christian, but writers slowly turned him into a caricature of his basic character concepts, making him insanely nice and affable, and also insanely devout. girls sex with toys

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Campbell
Jun 7, 2000


So wait - not only can I enjoy a game of political and military card-based intrigue but if I go to tournaments I can dress up like Associate Bob from Demolition Man??

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Oct 3, 2009


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So wait - not only can I enjoy a game of political and military card-based intrigue but if I go to tournaments I can dress up like Associate Bob from Demolition Man??

You could even impress a lady with such antics, as I've seen more of them at big L5R events than most gaming tournaments!

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screech on the beach
Mar 9, 2004

CHOMP


Tried to edit while phone posting and I think it messed some junk up. Anyways, I have 2 unopened core sets of the LCG if anyone is interested in buying them (my buddy bought 3 and I didn't know and he opened his). Let me know in a pm or something and I'll post a thread in SA mart if you want it official. Looking to get $70 shipped for both to cover paypal fees.

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OB_Juan
Nov 24, 2004

Not every day is a good day.



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Gave the RPG beta a quick read-over. It looks pretty playable. I like the character creation chapter. Blank dice are cheap, if you want to mark them up yourself.

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vandalism
Aug 4, 2003

sometimes... you just gotta break stuff.

I bought in to this game. Here is my opinion on it. First off, having to buy 3 core kits isn't that bad. $120 is not a ton of money, considering that's less than one box of magic cards. As a card game player, this shouldn't be offputting. However, the core kit experience of playing the game itself with just one core kit is not that thrilling. None of the games I've played so far have been that fun. It's basically a crapshoot of whether you get your clan guys or whether you are using wandering ronin and other poo poo garbage neutrals that are strictly inferior. That's not going to be fun for a person buying the game just as a self contained box game. Card game players will probably accept this. People playing for an inclusive game experience can probably find better games that are also multiple (3+) person games. I think they should have included some clan people as 2-ofs at least to get more of your clan flavor in the mix and not just have neutral guys.

In the games that I played, I got crushed completely with very little idea of what was going on or recourse to stop it. Once a player is ahead, heh... good luck catching up. Especially if they get their champion out. Maybe that's me being new. I did have a game where I brutally crushed my opponent and knew exactly what I was doing. Played phoenix that game and unbowing your guys can be ridiculously good. The phoenix kimono attachment that honors after victory and dishonors after defeat is pretty neat.

Overall I am interested to see how this game goes and whether it grows or not. FFG is sold out completely and all the local/regional shops seem to be selling the core kits hand over fist.

One thing that I don't care for is the extremely long turns. I feel like we are just going through so many mechanics and poo poo. I just want to counter a spell, kill a guy, pump a thing. There is lots of strategy in L5R that isn't present in Magic, but I frequently find myself looking at my hand with no idea what to do or how what I do decide to do will effect the game. So anyway, it's confusing to me. I've only played about 4-5 games though with single core kits.

I'm gonna build a tournament deck and maybe things will be more fleshed out. But 3 hour games are not uncommon with this and I simply don't have time for that poo poo. I like the back and forth nature of Netrunner more. Magic's game mechanics will always be king since it's so straightforward and feels so damned right, but the $10 modern masters pack and venture capitalist infiltration and speculating on a Children's Cardboard Game is a level beyond "lol". I love MTG, but god drat is the player base insufferable sometimes.

That's my ten cents. I spent money on the game, so I'm going to make the most of it and hope I enjoy 3 core kit games more and then eventually enjoy the dynasty packs.

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OB_Juan
Nov 24, 2004

Not every day is a good day.



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I think it's going to speed up a lot with the addition of expansions. These games tend to. People having the rules/rings memorized a bit better will also be helpful.

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Safety Factor
Oct 31, 2009



Grimey Drawer

I only bought one box, but I was able to finagle some trades with friends to get a triple set of Crab and double Unicorn. I thought a couple of their cards would pair well with Crab, but maybe I should've tried to double up on a different clan. I'll worry about that later. I traded away my Lion, Crane, and Scorpion, but still have Dragon and Phoenix. I really just wanted to start with Crab and give things a shot; they were my deck way back when so I thought I'd go with them even though I never played much. I'm looking forward to seeing the game grow and hopefully FFG keeps things a little less batshit than the old fluff.

So far, I've really been liking Crab. I've only played a couple of games and they seem like they've got some pretty solid options. I definitely needed the triple set for things like Eager Scouts and similar low cost cards to act as sacrifice fodder. My Unicorn splash has mostly been irrelevant so far, but that could've been a result of what I was up against more than anything else. My main complaint is that the rulebook included in the box isn't comprehensive enough. Some things are only covered in the online Rules Reference.

When is the first expansion due to release? I haven't been able to find anything concrete online. Some cards, but that's about it.

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Feeple
Jul 17, 2004

My favorite part of this hobby is the rules arguments.


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I only bought one box, but I was able to finagle some trades with friends to get a triple set of Crab and double Unicorn. I thought a couple of their cards would pair well with Crab, but maybe I should've tried to double up on a different clan. I'll worry about that later. I traded away my Lion, Crane, and Scorpion, but still have Dragon and Phoenix. I really just wanted to start with Crab and give things a shot; they were my deck way back when so I thought I'd go with them even though I never played much. I'm looking forward to seeing the game grow and hopefully FFG keeps things a little less batshit than the old fluff.

So far, I've really been liking Crab. I've only played a couple of games and they seem like they've got some pretty solid options. I definitely needed the triple set for things like Eager Scouts and similar low cost cards to act as sacrifice fodder. My Unicorn splash has mostly been irrelevant so far, but that could've been a result of what I was up against more than anything else. My main complaint is that the rulebook included in the box isn't comprehensive enough. Some things are only covered in the online Rules Reference.

When is the first expansion due to release? I haven't been able to find anything concrete online. Some cards, but that's about it.

So, that got placed "On the Boat" on 9/21, so probably 6-8 weeks after that. So, probably early November. FFG give you a status here: birthday sex birthday text

You can filter results, but basically it's a big ??? until Shipping Now.

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Nov 21, 2008

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I traded away my Lion

I guess your need to pick the wrong faction continues.

I only have one starter box right now, and my old L5R play group are all interested in getting into this at the ground floor. Hopefully our local game store will manage to get more in. One of my problems with Netrunner is that it looked cool, but starting several years into its existence made it seem like a impossible prospect to actually get into the game.

Hopefully L5R will manage to hold together better than the Doomtown redo from AEG. Really fun but I don't think anyone but me ever bought any.

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Safety Factor
Oct 31, 2009



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I guess your need to pick the wrong faction continues.
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Hopefully L5R will manage to hold together better than the Doomtown redo from AEG. Really fun but I don't think anyone but me ever bought any.

FFG is far better at promoting and maintaining the audience for their games than AEG, which is pretty much now down to Love Letter and Smash-Up, ever were. I don't think this is a concern.



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Hail Mr. Satan!
Oct 3, 2009


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FFG is far better at promoting and maintaining the audience for their games than AEG, which is pretty much now down to Love Letter and Smash-Up, ever were. I don't think this is a concern.

After playing Doomtown back in its heyday, and playing the Reloaded version, I'm going to go ahead and give Wizards the credit for OG Doomtown's success. The game design went drastically downhill once AEG took the reins after Revelations, and I don't think Reloaded is very good.

Edit: which is funny, because I feel the complete opposite way towards, L5R, where I thought the Wizards years were a boring snoozefest.

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