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SuperKlaus
Oct 19, 2005
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They refined the distribution more with aGoT2e and I consider L5R to be the optimum in that everything for clans is x1 with the neutrals being x2. That means that as you buy x3 cores, you can build decks easier.

Oh word? Three cores is precisely enough for 1 playset of all clan cards and 2 playsets of all neutrals, or in other words enough cards to allow any non-mirror match? That is indeed a lot nicer than Netrunner. Also, thanks from me too for explaining "core completion set" downsides. I'd wondered that myself.

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Like, the Scorpion peasants are NOT well treated or happy. They're probably the hot emo guy porn worst to their peasants second only to the Lion. That's why the Scorpion have so many celebrations - to keep the riots at bay.

I always thought Scorpion peasants were genuinely well-treated, because as the keepers of the Black Scrolls* the Scorpion are hyper-interested in keeping maho cults away, and they figured out that happy peasants don't turn to blood rituals so often. Or did I accidentally head-canon that? Maybe I made up the reason why but I swear I read somewhere that Scorpion peasants have it good, all considered.

*as always we'll disregard how fuckin' bad they were at this job in old canon

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And yeah, while I agree that the balance seems off, L5R at least should have more court stuff going on and all that to enforce balance, and a shugenja just going around immolating everything seems like something that would attract negative attention from both other people and irritated kami.

The issue, as always with the fighter / wizard thing, is that it goes way beyond combat. It's about ability to impact the narrative. Playing up courtly intrigue - which I am 100% behind - doesn't balance characters because the bushi is still unable to do much but hit thing with sword while the shugenja's skill set includes rendering secret missives invisible and reading friggin' minds. Plus, the new concept of shuji is available to every beta School but the Kuni, which means that everyone is on an equal footing accessing social-context "special moves." It's just that while the bushi demonstrates his skill at pretty talk, the shugenja talks pretty and then reads someone's friggin' mind.

I could be cracked though and seeing what amounts to PTSD flashbacks from umpteen D&D arguments on the topic. Pretty sure I'm not but I'll see what y'all think.

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Roland Jones
Aug 18, 2011
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I always thought Scorpion peasants were genuinely well-treated, because as the keepers of the Black Scrolls* the Scorpion are hyper-interested in keeping maho cults away, and they figured out that happy peasants don't turn to blood rituals so often. Or did I accidentally head-canon that? Maybe I made up the reason why but I swear I read somewhere that Scorpion peasants have it good, all considered.

*as always we'll disregard how fuckin' bad they were at this job in old canon

I remember hearing this somewhere too, for what it's worth. Can't recall where off the top of my head though.

quote:

The issue, as always with the fighter / wizard thing, is that it goes way beyond combat. It's about ability to impact the narrative. Playing up courtly intrigue - which I am 100% behind - doesn't balance characters because the bushi is still unable to do much but hit thing with sword while the shugenja's skill set includes rendering secret missives invisible and reading friggin' minds. Plus, the new concept of shuji is available to every beta School but the Kuni, which means that everyone is on an equal footing accessing social-context "special moves." It's just that while the bushi demonstrates his skill at pretty talk, the shugenja talks pretty and then reads someone's friggin' mind.

I could be cracked though and seeing what amounts to PTSD flashbacks from umpteen D&D arguments on the topic. Pretty sure I'm not but I'll see what y'all think.

That is a good point. I wasn't arguing that things shouldn't be equalized more, just that the game not being about murderhoboing and things spells being prayers (which would hopefully limit both frivolous use and make it so a shugenja can't just use them wherever without suspicion or reaction) would hopefully limit how much magic characters having, well, magic lets them dominate things. It still should be addressed beyond that though, probably, even if it is kind of tricky to do. Do you have any ideas on the subject, out of curiosity? I'll review the rules myself soon, but I'm curious what ideas you might have since you've been thinking about this and thus probably have better ones than me right now.

Also wow, everyone really does have shūji except for the Kuni. That's kind of hilarious.

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While Kata are boring [I wont fight this at all], they're very, very effective in combat as is. While not flashy or narrative at all, I've ran a handful [5] combats, 2 bushi vs bushi [one at rank 1, one at rank 4], 2 dragon monk vs. bushi [same ranks] and one shugenja vs. bushi.

The bushi beat the shugenja in the regular fight very handily [to be fair, it was a bow bushi, so starting at range vs. the shugenja wasn't a negative in this case] and the rank 4 monk, and lost to the rank 1 monk just barely due to being really unlucky.


The rank 4 monk vs. bushi actually ended in three moves, as the bushi used the 'crit at [weapon deadliness severity] kata, and was a Kakita, which meant my monk took an 11 point crit at first move, and then second move they hit me with another kata that increased my TN to hit them back, then third move came out and killed my monk flat out.



May have been outliers with rolls, always possible with low sample numbers, but Bushi definitely aren't mechanically gimped in a fighter vs. wizard way. They're still narratively gimped though, as discussed, in that they can't do narrative things [though Invocations have a 1/scene restriction, in non combat scenes]

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ProfessorCirno
Feb 17, 2011

The strongest! The smartest! The rightest!


Shugenja have always done ninel conde nude pic the opposite of suffering because in-setting they're supposed to be largely ceremonial priests and such, but mechanically they're also straight up D&D wizards most of the time.

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I always thought Scorpion peasants were genuinely well-treated, because as the keepers of the Black Scrolls* the Scorpion are hyper-interested in keeping maho cults away, and they figured out that happy peasants don't turn to blood rituals so often. Or did I accidentally head-canon that? Maybe I made up the reason why but I swear I read somewhere that Scorpion peasants have it good, all considered.

*as always we'll disregard how fuckin' bad they were at this job in old canon

Naw, or at least not going by L5R4's Emerald Empire and Great Clans; the Scorpion are free streaming porn dvd way more cynical. Their general outlook is "Well, we do OUR job without complaint, so you drat well better do YOUR job without complaint" but, well, that doesn't actually fly, so in reality, they mostly just allow for carmen electra hardcore porn non-stop parties. Essentially, when your kid is being born, BOTH parents are free from work for a few days so they can properly celebrate - and this custom isn't just for samurai either, so in particularly large villages, there's celebrations constantly. On top of that, peasants are allowed slash marge simpson porn movies lightly encouraged to wear masks themselves if they're the bride or groom at a wedding, which is half to allow for a fun celebration, and also half to get a little more of that brand loyalty out there.

So the Scorpion tactic is, well, bread and circuses. They treat their peasants like dogshit, but also let them party and celebrate a bunch so they're less likely to riot.

In comparison:

Crab mostly just ignore their peasants, which, all things considered, is kinda what the peasants want. You do your job, we do ours. That said, no group of peasants is as free nikki jayne porn thoroughly protected from corruption and blood magic. Crab peasants are the only ones allowed to straight up arm themselves, though they have good reason for it. Crab generally look down on overly making GBS threads on peasants and will absolutely see you as a dishonorable coward for doing so.

Crane likewise mostly just ignore their peasants. Life is probably still real lovely for them, because the actual caste system of Japan was utterly horrifying in it's cruelty and oppression, but it's porn that isnt blocked generically lovely. Crane will probably think you're being crass for mistreating a peasant, but that's kinda it.

Dragon wet fat ass pussy try to treat their peasants well, it's just that they...don't have much to actually help them with. Clan Dragon is poor, and so are their peasants. Dragon absolutely look down on overly making GBS threads on peasants.

Lion treat their peasants like dogshit because, again, the actual caste system of Japan was utterly horrifying in it's cruelty and oppression, and, well, Lion expect people to do what their told, without actually paying any attention to what the lives of the peasantry are. Lion are, above all else, THE status quo. They have a big enough army to smash any potential peasant riot, and, uh, do so. Lion stacy valentine virtual sex expect you to overly poo poo on peasants.

Mantis treat their peasants so goddamn nicely that villages will straight up celebrate if it looks like the Mantis is going to expand and take over their territory. They're still peasants in a brutal caste system that denies their humanity, but the Mantis at least try to make life better for them. Mantis might straight up fight your rear end for trying to poo poo on peasants, and any Mantis just allowing mistreatment to happen is probably seen as a weirdo and rear end in a top hat by the rest of his Mantis peers.

The Phoenix are similar to the Dragon. They treat their peasants decently, though of course they're still mired in a horrible hellish existence for no reason, and even actually try to educate them. Unfortunately, much like the Dragon, the Phoenix aren't exactly free hentai movie porn wealthy, and while their peasants aren't starving, they can expect their lives to be just as miserable at the end as it was at the beginning. Phoenix will probably try to stop you from making GBS threads on peasants, though the degree at which they try might not be that much.

The Unicorn are similar to the Mantis, though a touch or two not as much. They are openly kind to their peasants and try to help them through hard times and treat them far better then most other clans. Funny enough, while Mantis peasants still have a nicer life, Unicorn are way more serious about the "protection" part. Unicorn male sex toy reviews will straight up fight your rear end for trying to poo poo on peasants, and might even go out looking for people doing so JUST so they can gently caress them up.

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Aug 18, 2011
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Ah, that's interesting. I remembered the "bread and circuses" thing, but either forgot or missed the "...Because life for them is lovely otherwise" part.

Also, the bit about the Mantis has me remembering reading somewhere that, even before they were in the Mantis, the Moshi treated their peasants fairly well too, though I can't remember where. It does make sense though; a family of priestesses who worship the sun goddess, value empathy and harmony and such, and who live in an isolated, peaceful, fertile area don't seem like they'd be the sorts to do too much oppressing, at least beyond what's inherent to the system and such. Edit: Looked it up, and yeah, the Moshi generally just wanted to be left alone, so they didn't bother their peasants, taxed them less, and let them keep more food. The general Moshi attitude seems to have been "please go away" before they were forced into relevance.

Now I'm wondering if being less lovely towards their peasants was a general minor clan thing, or the Mantis (before and after their rise) and the Centipede were among the exceptions there. I could see it going either way really. (Also the bit about the Lion combined with me talking about the Moshi has me remembering one of my favorite minor lore bits, where apparently the Lion tried to invade the Centipede and got wrecked until diplomatic pressure made them stop. Turns out attacking into horribly unfriendly mountainous terrain and fighting people literally blessed by the sun and commanding some of the most powerful fire magic in the country is a bad idea and results in the strongest army in the country getting clowned by some backwater minor clan.)

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May have been outliers with rolls, always possible with low sample numbers, but Bushi definitely aren't mechanically gimped in a fighter vs. wizard way. They're still narratively gimped though, as discussed, in that they can't do narrative things [though Invocations have a 1/scene restriction, in non combat scenes]

Well, that's good to know at least. I'm not sure if there's any way around the narrative bit, since they sex social networking sites are mundane compared to monks and shugenja, but at least they're good at what they do. Which is murder.

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ProfessorCirno
Feb 17, 2011

The strongest! The smartest! The rightest!


Minor clans kinda angelina jole nude pics can't be as distant and arrogant as the great clans are. Half the time, they have to work side by side with their own peasants. That's the thing with the Mantis - they aren't really nude face in hole samurai, they're play with your pussy sailors. Most great clans have big land armies, where they keep the peasant part of the army and the noble side of the army separated. That's not really so much an option on a boat! So of course, working side by side with them builds familiarity, which increases empathy. Of course, on top of that, most Minor Clans have their origins in peasants who did Real Good once, so it's a bit hard to put on airs when you know ol' great grandpa was out in the fields himself, and it's likewise hard to consider the peasants a group of ignorable half-human nobodies when you yourself are living proof they can drat well be more then that.

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Minor clans kinda movie about sex addict can't be as distant and arrogant as the great clans are. Half the time, they have to work side by side with their own peasants. That's the thing with the Mantis - they aren't really free amateur nude video samurai, they're naked teens bent over sailors. Most great clans have big land armies, where they keep the peasant part of the army and the noble side of the army separated. That's not really so much an option on a boat! So of course, working side by side with them builds familiarity, which increases empathy. Of course, on top of that, most Minor Clans have their origins in peasants who did Real Good once, so it's a bit hard to put on airs when you know ol' great grandpa was out in the fields himself, and it's likewise hard to consider the peasants a group of ignorable half-human nobodies when you yourself are living proof they can drat well be more then that.

That makes sense, and is about what I was thinking. The way I saw it going the other way was a minor clan being insecure and overcompensating, but, given that they're you porn you jizz minor clans, most probably wouldn't have the power to pull that off without revolt for too long anyway.

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Doomtown was a revival of a game that had been dead for a decade and had a fairly small player base when it was active. As you noted you needed a second box for a full playset and we'll have to agree to disagree that you could full get the feel for a faction based on a single DTR core.

What is there to disagree? I'm not saying a single box isn't limited.
I was just claiming I could buy single starter of DTR, build 4 default decks, read rules (couple of times) and start playing with my mates.
It even had 74 extra cards to customize the decks with, when I was ready to do so.

What can I do with a single starter of L5R? Build non-constructed legal tutorial decks for up to 2 clans at the same time. No extra cards for customization, unless you count swapping clans.

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What can I do with a single starter of L5R? Build non-constructed legal tutorial decks for up to 2 clans at the same time. No extra cards for customization, unless you count swapping clans.

For me that's the worst thing about the Core set, you cannot build a legal deck out. Like it's not a starter set as it's not enough to get you started.

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Going back a bit, I noticed a problem with the Invocation rules while rereading them to check the balance stuff that was discussed before. Specifically, with this bit:

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[though Invocations have a 1/scene restriction, in non combat scenes]

This is true. However, each element also has some form of spiritual backlash if you roll too much strife while using an invocation of that type. Most are pretty dang annoying and potentially devastation. Earth, though...

quote:

Earth
Description: Earth kami repay disrespect with stony silence.
Effect: Characters cannot perform this technique again until the end of the scene.

The Earth spiritual backlash penalty trixie teen free videos literally isn't a penalty for non-conflict invocations. That seems wrong.

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Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011




It doesn't work mechanically but it makes a bit of lore sense. The kami are below humanity in the celestial order, it is only right and proper that they obey. The relationship between a Shugenja and the kami is the same as a Samurai to the Peasants, there are certain obligations both ways. It's the real reason why Maho is reviled, the taint and blood used to cast it is bad, but a human is becoming subservient to a spirit, thereby inverting the celestial order.

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For me that's the worst thing about the Core set, you cannot build a legal deck out. Like it's not a starter set as it's not enough to get you started.

Yeah you can. The rulebook explicitly says that a 30 card deck is legal with one core set.

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That is fair; I considered this myself actually, and while I was thinking if they could make it clear that it's not a playable set on its own, people would still make mistakes. Particularly people buying the thing as a gift for someone else.


Oh, really? That's a better way of doing it then; I admit I was assuming they were doing it like, well, Netrunner again.

Hm, I wonder if I could find someone else who's A. Into this, and B. Has completely different clan interest than I do. Three sets would offer one each of complete clan sets and two neutral sets, which would split between two people fairly well, even if one person gets an extra clan. $60 (or a bit more or less if the person getting the extra clan pays more) for a full set of everything I care about wouldn't be nearly as bad, and splitting the cost of the smaller packs could be an option going forward as well. ...Outside of the need for extra neutrals and stuff.

Thank you for putting in the time to write that all out, by the way. I appreciate your explanation and stuff. Sorry for being a bit rude earlier. $120 is still a high price point and has its disadvantages, but that does make more sense now, and as you say at least they're really mitigating the drawbacks of it this time around. I'll have to see if I can find someone else who's willing to share costs for this, meanwhile.

I actually disagree that the base game isn't a playable set on it's own. It is, it just doesn't offer what you'd expect from the full game experience. Using Magic as an example again, nobody goes to a sealed tournament/prerelease/whatever or buys a box of whatever set expecting to have the same game experience of someone who's building tourney-level constructed decks (for whatever format). However, it does give you a feel of what the game is like, to see if you'd like to invest more.

Also, depending on how much you do get into it as a competitive player, those "wasted" cards become extremely important. Most of the players in my area for AGoT have bought 6+ cores because we wanted multiples of the important cards in there for multiple decks (although had we known FFG would print the world championship decks we may not have done this, but whatever). Having multiples of important neutrals is great, for people who want to build multiple decks. Now if you want to talk waste, look at Arkham or LotR where you need multiple cores (only 2 in Arkham's case), but you get a full half of the cards essentially as junk since the enemy cards are all preset scenarios and only needs one set per game (although even in that case, I've heard of people using the extras to have more scenarios prebuilt without needing to resort after each play, but my group's never bothered with that). I think L5R's struck the right balance with what they put in the core, especially compared with the other LCGs they've put out.

And throughout all I've said I'm not saying I wouldn't appreciate a lower price point, but what I do understand is that's really not feasible for what their twin goals are. And along with that, the price point that IS offered is extremely less than non-LCG card games for what you get.

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The issue, as always with the fighter / wizard thing, is that it goes way beyond combat. It's about ability to impact the narrative. Playing up courtly intrigue - which I am 100% behind - doesn't balance characters because the bushi is still unable to do much but hit thing with sword while the shugenja's skill set includes rendering secret missives invisible and reading friggin' minds. Plus, the new concept of shuji is available to every beta School but the Kuni, which means that everyone is on an equal footing accessing social-context "special moves." It's just that while the bushi demonstrates his skill at pretty talk, the shugenja talks pretty and then reads someone's friggin' mind.

I could be cracked though and seeing what amounts to PTSD flashbacks from umpteen D&D arguments on the topic. Pretty sure I'm not but I'll see what y'all think.
For some reason there seems to be a significant amount of people that think it's just fine that in your typical party you have some dudes who basically hits things with increasingly more fancy sticks faster/harder, and some dudes who literally warp reality to their whims and that's just fine. Vancian casting I think was supposed to balance this somewhat but in my experience all that ends up happening is that people tend to plan their rest/downtime around the magic dudes. Like I really think part of the reason 4th ed D&D was so poorly received is that they actually tried making fighter types on par with magic types.

It's really disappointing there's not more balance in the L5R stuff so far, because you'd think a game that's all about samurai doing sweet stuff, you'd have them mechanically more at the forefront. edit-looks like mechanically it might actually be fine, which is a good thing. I guess I can't complain too much if they're going the route of bushi being "better" at the things they do vs. shugenja having more breadth and being able to do more odd stuff that's maybe not as powerful.

Also as an aside really been enjoying seeing all the lore discussion. Almost makes me want to try to dig up all the old RPG books my friends had and reread those.

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Yeah you can. The rulebook explicitly says that a 30 card deck is legal with one core set.

That's totally bullshit and you know it, people need to stop trying to push that line because it's loving stupid.

You cannot build a normal legal deck from 1 Core, from 2 Cores you get to use every in clan card you get and 12 neutral cards of your choice which is also dog poo poo but at least legal.

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That's totally bullshit and you know it, people need to stop trying to push that line because it's loving stupid.

You cannot build a normal legal deck from 1 Core, from 2 Cores you get to use every in clan card you get and 12 neutral cards of your choice which is also dog poo poo but at least legal.

There was literally a giant tournament ran with 1 core only. It's a legal format. It's no different from Magic having different card limits for sealed vs. constructed events.

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There was literally a giant tournament ran with 1 core only. It's a legal format. It's no different from Magic having different card limits for sealed vs. constructed events.

It's a special format, literally designed for release. Good luck finding a tourney that will allow you to run a 30/30 single core deck against everyone else's 40/40 decks. Even if you do you'll get absolutely pumped. You're not seriously suggesting the Out the Box Play section of the deck building section makes them normal legal decks are you?

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I hope FFG makes a new L5R RPG with designs taken and refined from the star wars RPG. I'd really like to see L5R with a more modern set of rules. I played the old one and it had all the usual crap from the 3.5 rules system.

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There was literally a giant tournament ran with 1 core only. It's a legal format. It's no different from Magic having different card limits for sealed vs. constructed events.

It's a legal format to sell things at an event with limited stock, sure. They did the same thing with early Armada but I sure as hell don't see 200 point armada tournaments nowadays.

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I hope FFG makes a new L5R RPG with designs taken and refined from the star wars RPG. I'd really like to see L5R with a more modern set of rules. I played the old one and it had all the usual crap from the 3.5 rules system

The 5th Edition beta is definitely heavily informed by it, yes. Available free right now!

Also lol if you played the d20 version

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I hope FFG makes a new L5R RPG with designs taken and refined from the star wars RPG. I'd really like to see L5R with a more modern set of rules. I played the old one and it had all the usual crap from the 3.5 rules system.

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I hope FFG makes a new L5R RPG with designs taken and refined from the star wars RPG. I'd really like to see L5R with a more modern set of rules. I played the old one and it had all the usual crap from the 3.5 rules system.

Did you play "Legend of the Five Rings" as produced by AEG or did you play a D&D 3.5 game using the Oriental Adventures rulebook set in Rokugan? I'm not going to say L5R was the most tightly designed RPG, even if I still like 4E, but it's pretty different from D&D.

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The 5th Edition beta is definitely heavily informed by it, yes. Available free right now!

Also lol if you played the d20 version

Oriental adventures was my first RPG book and it was all because I was tricked by lovely RPG grognards that it was a "good system." loving grognards, man, tricking kids into playing their lovely games. (that's how I also got into 40k )


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Did you play "Legend of the Five Rings" as produced by AEG or did you play a D&D 3.5 game using the Oriental Adventures rulebook set in Rokugan? I'm not going to say L5R was the most tightly designed RPG, even if I still like 4E, but it's pretty different from D&D.
I didn't find out about the actual L5R ruleset until later and by then it was too late. I was in the glory days of 4e and finding out good games like dogs in the vineyard or burning wheel by then.

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vandalism
Aug 4, 2003

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What if you bought 1 core set but then supplemented a clans dynasty deck with cards from other factions, even though that's against the rules. Like instead of wandering robin in the lion deck you threw in some random unicorn dudes. gently caress the rules. Could make it more fun? Or an abomination. Might make one core more palatable to some.

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It's a special format, literally designed for release. Good luck finding a tourney that will allow you to run a 30/30 single core deck against everyone else's 40/40 decks. Even if you do you'll get absolutely pumped. You're not seriously suggesting the Out the Box Play section of the deck building section makes them normal legal decks are you?

The argument is that other games have entry level deck building formats for release events, in which you can build a deck that's not legal in other formats. There's nothing stopping you from showing up at a casual play Magic session with a deck built from a booster draft but that doesn't mean your deck will be legal to play in constructed tournaments or competitive against other decks. However plenty of stores run Magic leagues where you can keep bringing back your sealed deck because that's the point.

In the early days of the release of an LCG it's not uncommon for stores to run 1 core tournaments for a couple months to allow all the players to get access to the cards.

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Oriental adventures was my first RPG book and it was all because I was tricked by lovely RPG grognards that it was a "good system." loving grognards, man, tricking kids into playing their lovely games. (that's how I also got into 40k )

I didn't find out about the actual L5R ruleset until later and by then it was too late. I was in the glory days of 4e and finding out good games like dogs in the vineyard or burning wheel by then.

I really like the feel of the new L5R system. It is genre emulation in an interesting way because it is heavily dependent on what your character is feeling, and I love that you build up stress until your emotionless mask cracks and you have an outburst.

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It's a special format, literally designed for release. Good luck finding a tourney that will allow you to run a 30/30 single core deck against everyone else's 40/40 decks. Even if you do you'll get absolutely pumped. You're not seriously suggesting the Out the Box Play section of the deck building section makes them normal legal decks are you?

Good luck finding a Magic tourney that will allow you to run a 40 card sealed deck against everyone else's 60 card decks. Even if you do you'll get absolutely pumped.

I mean tourney rules also say you have to use opaque card sleeves. Are you bitching because the box doesn't come with opaque card sleeves too?

Also, the getting started kit is set up so that the first event is a 1 core event. So yes, the fact that they're numerous, sanctioned 1-core events on top of rules in the book about 1 core rules makes me think they're legal. They aren't 40/40 decks, they're 30/30 one-core decks. If you're actually serious about going to koteis and whatnot you're not gonna just buy one core anyway so what are you even arguing about? That you don't get everything in the game ever in one core box? I think everyone has admitted it's not the best experience for the game. But it does give you a feel for how the game works and plays, and allows you if you really want to have some duels right out the box.

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What if you bought 1 core set but then supplemented a clans dynasty deck with cards from other factions, even though that's against the rules. Like instead of wandering robin in the lion deck you threw in some random unicorn dudes. gently caress the rules. Could make it more fun? Or an abomination. Might make one core more palatable to some.

If it's fun for you go ahead. There's nothing stopping you-police won't barge in your house and arrest you for breaking the rules or whatever (at least for this, if you're cooking meth or something they may do that but that's really unrelated, also if you're cooking meth I'd expect you to have the cash to afford 3 cores no problem).

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Lightning Lord
Feb 21, 2013

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Is there a good card database for the CCG, like Gatherer or Magiccards.info? I'd like to look at some old cards for the hell of it

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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


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Is there a good card database for the CCG, like Gatherer or Magiccards.info? I'd like to look at some old cards for the hell of it

All the cards that were ever printed...probably.

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alansmithee
Jan 25, 2007

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Also, has anyone tried running a campaign using the new rules for the RPG? I've not checked them out much yet, I'm wondering how easy is it to put together a campaign and run a session. The biggest barrier in my area has typically been getting people to run games just because it's pretty time intensive.

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SuperKlaus
Oct 19, 2005
Like Klaus but better

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scene limitations and spiritual backlash

My issues with these: 1/scene limitation is a sound idea, but I anticipate most interesting situations calling for magic use will be Conflicts, and Conflicts are exempt. Social intrigues are expressly Conflicts, so I don't really foresee any non-Conflict situations outside of investigations and travel. Thus the 1/scene limitation does not often apply. Further, a shugenja with a Rank or two under his belt will probably have a nice inventory of invocations available such that he has enough useful magic from which to choose each turn that he doesn't mind only using a given magic once. See DnD 4e characters, who had enough encounter powers relative to turns in a given encounter that they rather uncommonly resorted to at-wills (sound design in DnD 4e, just illustrative of my point). Lastly, there is no such limitation on kiho.

As for spiritual backlash, you've correctly identified that the Earth one basically doesn't matter, and I'd submit that Water (nobody around can cast Water until someone casts not-Water) is also basically meaningless, if more interesting. The Fire and Air backlashes are waaaayyy more interesting and truth be told I'm okay with them and would rather spend my energy fighting for other issues. However. They nonetheless do not really balance the shugenja, as both backlashes are bad because they make spells hit unintended targets, and so the actual harm done by out-of-control Fire and Air magic is likely to fall on the shugenja's friends as much as him. The narrative continues to be focused on the shugenja as his wacky out-of-control kami pals gently caress around with the scene. Lastly, there is no such limitation on kiho.

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The rank 4 monk vs. bushi actually ended in three moves, as the bushi used the 'crit at [weapon deadliness severity] kata, and was a Kakita, which meant my monk took an 11 point crit at first move, and then second move they hit me with another kata that increased my TN to hit them back, then third move came out and killed my monk flat out.

May have been outliers with rolls, always possible with low sample numbers, but Bushi definitely aren't mechanically gimped in a fighter vs. wizard way. They're still narratively gimped though, as discussed, in that they can't do narrative things [though Invocations have a 1/scene restriction, in non combat scenes]

Appreciated! Please understand the following are discussion, not attacks on you. I really appreciate help on this topic.

I did notice some kata seem to be at least really good at their job. Striking as Air pumping your next defensive TN by 1 per Opportunity is bananas and might eat a nerf. The rest, though. For example, that rank 3 crit kata is a nice improvement other regular crit rules but can still be saving-thrown against as easily as a normal crit if the target is Water stance. I'd also wonder how much of a benefit it is generally - make a TN 4 check to hit, get a strong crit regardless of Ops. Whereas any clown can make a TN 2 check to hit, spend 2 Ops to crit normally. And if you whiff the kata you disorient yourself. AND the kata deals no regular damage, so it's not going to inflict the best status effect - "target removed from situation" - unless the crit is really juicy!

The kata are just weighed down with that sort of thing. High TNs, downsides for failure, questionable comparative benefit to regular sword-hittin'.

Let's look at a kiho-user at Rank 1 who is solely combat-focused. He absolutely does seem to have a harder time delivering raw damage than a bushi, as his fists are damage 1 to a katana's damage 4 and his damage-dealing [Element] Fist kiho only deal damage equal to Ring, which we can assume will be 3. With no stacking damage for spare successes, either. And low deadliness. This is NOT a trivial thing. Nor is it trivial that these kiho are TN 3 to a normal attack's TN 2.

The kiho-user can make up quite a lot of lost ground by choosing the +damage or -armor passive effects, though. And he'll have an Improvised Blunt Weapon available to deal 4 damage if he'd rather do that. And the reward for that TN 3 is that his kiho are inflicting status conditions Rank 1 kata can't match. Is he strictly, always better than a kata-user? No. Iaijutsu hits like a truck. The Improvised Blunt weapon won't get kiho buffs like a bushi's sword gets kata New Op buffs. But I would argue the kiho-user is at least as good, which is too much given he has other shenanigans available if he is not solely combat-focused.

This is only to discuss Rank 1. It is very important to note that at higher Ranks, the kiho-user's Rings will inflate and his kiho damage will inflate with them. Kiho dealing less raw damage than a katana is not a certain thing.

How about an invocation-user at Rank 1, in combat? For raw killing power he can Tempest of Air - this only deals damage equal to Ring, so it's weaker than a katana like Kiho are (well, at Rank 1 that is true). But wait - Tempest is AoE. And not necessarily party-unfriendly AoE. And it delivers a status effect like kiho. And can push suckers around the field or assist the user's movements. Or he can Grasp of Earth. This does Ring damage to one guy, with status effect. But wait - it is only TN 2, like a sword strike. And it can actually hit several guys. Or tune itself to deal a different damage type or no damage when capture is desirable. Or he can Fires From Within to deal Ring damage to several guys, again with ancillary benefit options. There are more but I'm trying to restrain the

That's just raw killing power. Directly combat-relevant Rank 1 invocations include, but are not limited to, weapon- and armor-creation spells that give you gear as good as any bushi's that carry ancillary benefits and can be smuggled into any situation, buffing spells (Biting Steel lets the shugenja immediately whack a dude for huge bonus damage for just 1 Op), and the famous healing spell Path To Inner Peace, which can heal the entire party. The Rank 1 healing kata is self-healing only and takes a Void Point and requires you be KO'd.

Is he strictly better than a kata-user? Uh...well...maybe! Iaijutsu hits like a truck but so does Biting Steel! "Strictly better" is not a helpful concept anyway. The total power package is at least as good and it comes with non-combat goodies.

In this way I see bushi failing to meaningfully excel when compared to their monk and shugenja comrades even in the arena of cutting up oni. The monks and shugenja will then embarrass the bushi in every other context.

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KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

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And while I'm not a big card player, even if one core was game legal, wouldn't you still be at a huge disadvantage compared to whales who buy every core and then all the extra packs afterwards? I can't see any world where a single core even if legal makes a tournament good deck, unless you're suggesting that all three cores should be combined into one, but keep the same price point as now?



Back to the RPG - did another short playtest last night, of a rank 6 bushi vs. a rank 6 shugenja [Crab vs Phoenix actually] where they started at range 3, despite the crab being melee. It was much, much closer a fight than the bow vs. shugenja match we simulated before, and the Shugenja lost just barely, but damaged the crab's heart and made him blind, in the course of the duel. The shugenja also lost a hand during said duel, before losing his head.

Now, we didn't super ultra optimize, and they literally only had the stats needed to rank up in their school + some extra kata and invocations, but we tried to make them pretty combat competent. It could have easily gone the other way, and that bushi probably is going to retire into a monastery or go die honorably against some goblins, I dunno.


Unless I'm missing something, long ranges are pretty strong, but once someone closes in on you, it's basically impossible to get them farther away from you again, and being hit in the head with a tetsubo is pretty scary, even compared to being engulfed in fire.


Edit: But I say all this with the big red letters that I'm far from a system master for this.


Edit2: and yeah, shugenja are way up there in terms of being the aoe masters. No bushi is ever gonna stab a group of enemies as well as a shugenja sets them on fire. But my feel is that bushi are (generally) better one on one against a single big threat.

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Aramoro
Jun 1, 2012



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Good luck finding a Magic tourney that will allow you to run a 40 card sealed deck against everyone else's 60 card decks. Even if you do you'll get absolutely pumped.

I mean tourney rules also say you have to use opaque card sleeves. Are you bitching because the box doesn't come with opaque card sleeves too?

Also, the getting started kit is set up so that the first event is a 1 core event. So yes, the fact that they're numerous, sanctioned 1-core events on top of rules in the book about 1 core rules makes me think they're legal. They aren't 40/40 decks, they're 30/30 one-core decks. If you're actually serious about going to koteis and whatnot you're not gonna just buy one core anyway so what are you even arguing about? That you don't get everything in the game ever in one core box? I think everyone has admitted it's not the best experience for the game. But it does give you a feel for how the game works and plays, and allows you if you really want to have some duels right out the box.

I have to assume you're just being deliberately obtuse now. A booster draft is in now way the same as buying a starter for a game and it not providing enough cards to build a legal deck.

I've checked all the local tournaments around me, they're all 40/40 constructed. If you've got a single core you're poo poo out of luck. I doubt many places will be running many single core games because it's simply not a good experience out of the box.

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alansmithee
Jan 25, 2007

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I have to assume you're just being deliberately obtuse now. A booster draft is in now way the same as buying a starter for a game and it not providing enough cards to build a legal deck.

I've checked all the local tournaments around me, they're all 40/40 constructed. If you've got a single core you're poo poo out of luck. I doubt many places will be running many single core games because it's simply not a good experience out of the box.

Sealed isn't a booster draft. Booster draft is a different format.

You keep saying a core set won't build a legal deck. That's entirely false. It builds a legal 30/30 deck. Most tournaments now are going to run at 40/40, requiring opaque sleeves. That's because just about everyone who wants to play competitively will buy three cores because it generally gives a better experience. One core is not designed to allow you to play at the competitive, organized play level. It's also not being sold as if it does. You will likely need to buy 3 cores if you want to compete, along with opaque sleeves. Of course, once you've made that purchase, you're now able to make every possible deck available to make. That said, there's absolutely nothing stopping people from organizing 30/30 single core tournaments (besides lack of players wanting to play that format, but that's not what you're arguing).

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Aramoro
Jun 1, 2012



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Sealed isn't a booster draft. Booster draft is a different format.

You keep saying a core set won't build a legal deck. That's entirely false. It builds a legal 30/30 deck. Most tournaments now are going to run at 40/40, requiring opaque sleeves. That's because just about everyone who wants to play competitively will buy three cores because it generally gives a better experience. One core is not designed to allow you to play at the competitive, organized play level. It's also not being sold as if it does. You will likely need to buy 3 cores if you want to compete, along with opaque sleeves. Of course, once you've made that purchase, you're now able to make every possible deck available to make. That said, there's absolutely nothing stopping people from organizing 30/30 single core tournaments (besides lack of players wanting to play that format, but that's not what you're arguing).

30/30 is not a legal deck for any reasonable assessment of whats legal. Its the release format which will be played exactly once because its bad. It's legal in a format that no one is going to play so how does it matter that its legal in that context. There will never be another tournament here for single core in all likelihood. So you've got all these players with a single core you can not play in even a casual local tournament with what they've got. I see that as bad for the game, you should be able to buy a starter and play the game which you cannot really do.

FFG have made a good game but trying to defend the distribution is ludicrous. It does not encourage new players into the game which is what they need to so.

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I really like the feel of the new L5R system. It is genre emulation in an interesting way because it is heavily dependent on what your character is feeling, and I love that you build up stress until your emotionless mask cracks and you have an outburst.

I like the outburst system. It actually seems really thematic and suited to the setting.

So far I like the general direction the RPG beta is headed in, though there are a decent amount of rules holes and things that probably aren't working as intended. How receptive is FFG to feedback though? I'm left wondering if they will update the rules to follow player's critiques, or if the beta is pretty reflective of the final product?

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May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


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30/30 is not a legal deck for any reasonable assessment of whats legal. Its the release format which will be played exactly once because its bad. It's legal in a format that no one is going to play so how does it matter that its legal in that context. There will never be another tournament here for single core in all likelihood. So you've got all these players with a single core you can not play in even a casual local tournament with what they've got. I see that as bad for the game, pump that pussy song you should be able to buy a starter and play the game which you cannot really do.

FFG have made a good game but trying to defend the distribution is ludicrous. It does not encourage new players into the game which is what they need to so.

I get your point that you can't build a legal 40/40 deck from a single core, but disagree with you about the bolded statement. A single core is literally meant to give players a jumping off point into the game, no different than FNM booster drafts are meant to be cheap ways to get new players into Magic. Neither gives new players a viable card base for constructed tournament play, but both serve as cheaper entry points to give the player a chance to get into the game without investing heavily and in a format where the distribution of cards is more favorable to inexperienced players.

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I get your point that you can't build a legal 40/40 deck from a single core, but disagree with you about the bolded statement. A single core is literally meant to give players a jumping off point into the game, no different than FNM booster drafts are meant to be cheap ways to get new players into Magic. Neither gives new players a viable card base for constructed tournament play, but both serve as cheaper entry points to give the player a chance to get into the game without investing heavily and in a format where the distribution of cards is more favorable to inexperienced players.

I get that its a jumping off point but even with Magic you could always buy a preconstructed and go play a regular tournament with that if you fancied.

Im really talking about the impression it gives people thinking about playing the game. Single core games are not that fun and no one is going to willing play them that often. So you're left telling people 'yeah your single core sucked and the game wasn't that much fun but just spend another 70 bucks and you'll be fine' on top of that youre basically excluded from all the local tournaments. Even at casual nights here everyones playing 40/40. If they had made it so you could build a legal 40/40 deck out of the core then the guy can still go along and play, he won't do well but he can at least play.

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SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
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One thing I don't like about the Six Packs in Six weeks, is well, the subscription service I use sends the packs Priority Mail, so it looks like I'll be cranking out an extra $50 in shipping alone :P Hopefully they offer more budget-friendly options.

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SuperKlaus
Oct 19, 2005
Like Klaus but better

I want to back off a little on my claims about kiho superiority. A little. I didn't recognize that you can't choose to keep a kiho's passive effect active when you use a different kiho. It is therefore hard to do something like keep +Ring to fist damage going at all times. Nor did I notice that kiho cannot be cast repeatedly in a row. I still feel they are superior to kata in an unacceptable way but the difference is smaller than realized earlier. Invocations, though...

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I like the outburst system. It actually seems really thematic and suited to the setting.

So far I like the general direction the RPG beta is headed in, though there are a decent amount of rules holes and things that probably aren't working as intended. How receptive is FFG to feedback though? I'm left wondering if they will update the rules to follow player's critiques, or if the beta is pretty reflective of the final product?

Star Wars RPG barely changed anything, as I recall. The devs here are quite nice folks though and assure us changes will be made. It's our job to convince them of what the right changes are!

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PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

...as much revenge as any man could possibly take.


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I get that its a jumping off point but even with Magic you could always buy a preconstructed and go play a regular tournament with that if you fancied.

Im really talking about the impression it gives people thinking about playing the game. Single core games are not that fun and no one is going to willing play them that often. So you're left telling people 'yeah your single core sucked and the game wasn't that much fun but just spend another 70 bucks and you'll be fine' on top of that youre basically excluded from all the local tournaments. Even at casual nights here everyones playing 40/40. If they had made it so you could build a legal 40/40 deck out of the core then the guy can still go along and play, he won't do well but he can at least play.

What's stopping you from going and then borrowing cards to participate in tournaments?

What's stopping you from making proxies to play casual games?

If you're going to make the effort to go out and play at a store with people then I'd say it's a 90% probability that you know what the scene is about.

If you're wanting to go make the effort to play beyond you kitchen table, 1 core isn't targeted at you.

1 Core is meant for the very casual crowd to dip their toe in the water, buy with their friends or spouse to play behind closed doors in the privacy of their home. It's not meant for people who want to play at their local store and are even remotely interested in finding a play group.


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One thing I don't like about the Six Packs in Six weeks, is well, the subscription service I use sends the packs Priority Mail, so it looks like I'll be cranking out an extra $50 in shipping alone :P Hopefully they offer more budget-friendly options.

That definitely sucks, are you using the Team Covenant subscriptions or another place? Did you contact them to see if there's a cheaper option or if it would be possible to do a hold and get them sent in 3 week chunks?

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That is the whole loving point. 1 starter isn't good enough for even casual play at home.

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