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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom


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senju i do have you on ignore finally

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

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Black is white if the Church says it to be so, I grumble under my breath.

except traditionalists are more like black is white if the church says it to be so but if the church says don't convert the jews then the church has gone too far and must be fought tooth and nail

traditionalists your movement was started by antisemites that's gotta sting right

also old catholics jumped ship cause of papal infallibility but they're cool with gays and trans people why don't you guys do the same? right a movement that says "whoa hey i think infallibility might be a bridge too far" is very different from one that says "jews need to be converted"

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

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senju i do have you on ignore finally

you realize this means i win right

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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i deeply dont care who he fucks or what he does with his life or whatever (and i agree with the thread's consensus, before it was closed because one guy said "pagan poo poo is not christian", that the obsession with sexuality is largely a 19th century artifact), but there's a limit to how trad you can claim to be while also ignoring church doctrine
wrong again. that doctrine's only from the 1200s AD.
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this book doesn't work for the west because most of the examples are from greece and (you'll love this part) russia. also it's not a marriage because it's not about inheritance, which is what marriages are for. nevertheless i gift it to you
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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom


College Slice

i'm going to assume that those two posts are directed at me and pray for you

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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also old catholics jumped ship cause of papal infallibility but they're cool with gays and trans people why don't you guys do the same?
but old catholics have the aesthetic sense of warm oatmeal

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Numerical Anxiety
Sep 2, 2011

Hello.


Just because we're forbidden to talk about abortion doesn't mean that the new thread needs be one.

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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom


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wrong again. that doctrine's only from the 1200s AD.

i know when the doctrine dates from. i think the modern big brother naked clips emphasis on sexuality, and the often overwhelming focus on sexual sins above almost all others, is largely a victorian artifact.

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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friend my personal conscience doesn't come into it because i'm not the one who gets to decide whether one's communion is licit or illicit. if you're living in sin, as defined by the catholic church, then your communion is illicit (and a further sin), as defined by the catholic church
you started going to church like five days ago, man

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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i know when the doctrine dates from. i think the modern hardcore lesbian xxx porn emphasis on sexuality, and the often overwhelming focus on sexual sins above almost all others, is largely a victorian artifact.
rad, so why are you being so extremely late-victorian

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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom


College Slice

going back after a few months away, yeah. that was my bad.

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rad, so why are you being so extremely late-victorian

literally you brought up the gay poster and i responded it to it with what current catechism is, then repeatedly stated that i dont care who he is or what he does with his life

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Lutha Mahtin
Oct 10, 2010
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if you dont care then whatever, i dont care if you dont care

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do you really see nothing wrong with that awful post

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not doctrinally no, i can't speak for your moral position

quoting a non-me piece of poo poo

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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going back after a few months away, yeah. that was my bad.
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edit: Bel_Canto has been Catholic all his life. His family is Boston Irish. They've been Catholic since the Irish were converted. Don't you think they've free amateur sex cams loving got this and don't need someone who only now has looked up latin masses dot jpeg to tell them how to act?

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

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but old catholics have the aesthetic sense of warm oatmeal

i didn't say they were perfect. i didn't even say they were good. i said they were cool with gays

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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom


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bud i haven't personally condemned the guy nor was i the one to bring up gay issues. i'm sorry that you don't like the fact that catholic catechism teaches that a non-celibate gay guy can't licitly receive communion but that's not my problem

(also i confessed and did penance for my lax-ness, and can therefore receive communion licitly again)

also, when i asked if it was okay to have non-liberal beliefs in here, the honest answer would have been 'no'

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Ceciltron
Jan 11, 2007

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What can anyone hope to achieve from this argument?

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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bud i haven't personally condemned the guy nor was i the one to bring up gay issues. i'm sorry that you don't like the fact that catholic catechism teaches that a non-celibate gay guy can't licitly receive communion but that's not my problem
the religion can't be reduced to a book written in the 90s, it's the living practice of two thousand years of doing things (even though i don't believe it's correct).

and if non liberal beliefs aren't cool, i'd be the first to go.

edit: again, if you admit this was invented in the victorian era, why believe it?

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bud i haven't personally condemned the guy nor was i the one to bring up gay issues. i'm sorry that you don't like the fact that catholic catechism teaches that a non-celibate gay guy can't licitly receive communion but that's not my problem

you're a cowardly little bitch who hides behind things you obviously don't even believe in. there is no universe in which you could even plausibly claim to be a christian

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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom


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edit: Bel_Canto has been Catholic all his life. His family is Boston Irish. They've been Catholic since the Irish were converted. Don't you think they've ava devine porn pictures loving got this and don't need someone who only now has looked up latin masses dot jpeg to tell them how to act?

i dunno, i wasn't even talking to the guy, nor have i ever. why'd you bring him up in an argument that you started with me, then?

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and if non liberal beliefs aren't cool, i'd be the first to go.

would you feel better if i said 'progressive'

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

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i'm going to assume that those two posts are directed at me and pray for you

you know it doesn't count if you're being passive aggressive, right?

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bud i haven't personally condemned the guy nor was i the one to bring up gay issues. i'm sorry that you don't like the fact that catholic catechism teaches that a non-celibate gay guy can't licitly receive communion but that's not my problem

(also i confessed and did penance for my lax-ness, and can therefore receive communion licitly again)

also, when i asked if it was okay to have non-liberal beliefs in here, the honest answer would have been 'no'
it's not even okay to have liberal beliefs as far as i'm concerned. leftist only. and if you're a loving trotskyist i will loving go to your house and shove an ice pick in your head. and don't even get me started on bakunin

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What can anyone hope to achieve from this argument?

the sweet sweet rush of righteous anger

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Jan 11, 2007

Text BEEP to 43527 for the dancing robot!

Pillbug

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the sweet sweet rush of righteous anger

I don't feel that anymore. I only get sad. I haven't felt that way in a few years. Kind of miss the rush.

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

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I don't feel that anymore. I only get sad. I haven't felt that way in a few years. Kind of miss the rush.

that just means you need bigger and bigger doses. just go to trump's twitter feed and give it a few minutes. be careful not to od tho

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Pellisworth
Jun 20, 2005

I'm a horse of a different color


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not doctrinally no, i can't speak for your moral position

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senju i do have you on ignore finally

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i'm going to assume that those two posts are directed at me and pray for you

you're being incredibly passive-aggressive

it's not that your viewpoints are unwelcome here (not to name names but I think Worthleast and zonohedron are probably in the same ballpark as you), you're picking unproductive internet fights

respectfully, please be less combative, you're not going to convince anyone to change their beliefs or opinions and it's only serving to piss people off

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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it's not even okay to have liberal beliefs as far as i'm concerned. leftist only.

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

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you're being incredibly passive-aggressive

it's not that your viewpoints are unwelcome here (not to name names but I think Worthleast and zonohedron are probably in the same ballpark as you), you're picking unproductive internet fights

respectfully, please be less combative, you're not going to convince anyone to change their beliefs or opinions and it's only serving to piss people off
actually i think he's only pissing himself off at this point. i mean announcing you have someone on ignore? that is the babiest of baby moves


leftist only, no items, final destination

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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(not to name names but I think Worthleast and zonohedron are probably in the same ballpark as you)
zone probably is, she's down with the Curia in everything. Worthleast may or may not be, because they've been extremely loving burned by the central authority of mainstream catholicism before, so what's their incentive to trust them in this?

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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leftist only, no items, final destination
sorry, i'm Orthodox. We've tried this. Got a lot more saints but nothing else of value was gained (except the song Sacred War and the time people carried an icon of the Mother of God around Leningrad during the siege. Those were ill.)

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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom


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again, if you admit this was invented in the victorian era

i do not believe this, and have made my views on the matter quite clear, i think:

quote:

i know when the doctrine dates from. i think the modern japanese young nude girls emphasis on sexuality, and the often overwhelming focus on sexual sins above almost all others, is largely a victorian artifact.

e: also, you're not seriously suggesting that the church's prohibition on homosexuality only dates from the 1200s, are you?

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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e: also, you're not seriously suggesting that the church's prohibition on homosexuality only dates from the 1200s, are you?
do you know how loving gay the literati were in the 1000s? it was one sin just like any other, and less serious than many. Read a book.

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Pellisworth
Jun 20, 2005

I'm a horse of a different color


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bud i haven't personally condemned the guy nor was i the one to bring up gay issues. i'm sorry that you don't like the fact that catholic catechism teaches that a non-celibate gay guy can't licitly receive communion but that's not my problem

(also i confessed and did penance for my lax-ness, and can therefore receive communion licitly again)

free asain pussy movies also, when i asked if it was okay to have non-liberal beliefs in here, the honest answer would have been 'no'

you can have whatever views you want just don't be a jerk about it

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chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom


College Slice

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do you know how loving gay the literati were in the 1000s? it was one sin just like any other, and less serious than many. Read a book.

yeah i'm a medievalist focusing on the high middle ages. i know it was just one sin among many. the last time i heard a (modern, non-medieval) priest speak on it, he classed as just one sin among many, equivalent to living with a partner before you're married, which i agree with. as i have now repeatedly said, i think the extreme emphasis on homosexuality (and sex in general) as an ultra-sin is a victorian artifact. i'm not trying to be combative - is there a particular part of that you disagree with, or are you just looking for reasons to be mad at me?

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you can have whatever views you want just don't be a jerk about it

i really dont think that's true unless you class 'not being a jerk about it' as 'never mentioning it at all'

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

anyway in other news i downloaded an app that helps me read kanji so i'm gonna try my best to read through this book on takagi kenmyo's essay, my socialism. it's part of a project i'm doing to write a paper comparing the lives, deaths, and legacies of oscar romero and takagi kenmyo. in case you couldn't tell from that context takagi kenmyo was a leftist buddhist priest who was arrested by the meiji government on trumped up treason charges and eventually killed himself in prison after losing his family, his position, and being abandoned by his temple organization. i wanted to look at the ways people in different historical circumstances, from different religions, turn towards working for liberation and the ways in which they utilize their religious tradition to justify their actions and condemn the actions of their mainstream contemporaries. i have a lot of good resources for the high treason incident and for takagi kenmyo (tho obviously i would want more than i have but that's the problem with niche japanese stuff) but surprisingly do not have anything for oscar romero beyond jon sobrino's writings on him and his legacy. anyone have any suggestions for books on el salvador's historical situation during his life? i can find collected sermons and stuff pretty easy but history is not my strong suit

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i'm not trying to be combative

bull loving poo poo. and shame on you

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Slimy Hog
Apr 22, 2008



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i really dont think that's true unless you class 'not being a jerk about it' as 'never mentioning it at all'

Wait, what's the view you're arguing for?

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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i know it was just one sin among many. the last time i heard a (modern, non-medieval) priest speak on it, he classed as just one sin among many, equivalent to living with a partner before you're married...
You are correct. So...why are you not yelling about JcDent for having a long-term girlfriend? (sorry JcDent.) I had a partner for eight years and at the time it was cishet, now I'm not so sure what I am. Yell about that. There are towns where I grew up where straight people shacked up routinely but only got married and legitimated any of the resulting children whenever the priest came through town, which was "whenever." Why not get mad about them? (And yes, they were devout. Probably more pious than I am. Staunch Catholics, up there.)

I would posit that you're still infected by modernism, with all its associated brittle overreliance on rules instead of lived experience.

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Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom


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You are correct. So...why are you not yelling about JcDent for having a long-term girlfriend? (sorry JcDent.)

because you didn't bring him up in the context of looking for things to argue about with me. i didn't go out of my way to condemn the other guy (to whom i have literally never spoken and about whom i know nothing except what you've told me), you brought him up as if so say "and what's your view on swingers sex party 2007 that?" (i.e. as a cudgel in an argument) and i replied. do you want me to say, again, that that (living with your girlfriend and the other bits you mentioned) is a sin, and if he receives communion without atoning for it then it's illicit communion and thus another sin? i will, i guess?

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because you didn't bring him up in the context of looking for things to argue about with me. i didn't go out of my way to condemn the other guy (to whom i have literally never spoken), you brought him up as if so say "and what's your view on free lesbian group porn that?" and i replied. do you want me to say, again, that that's a sin, and if he receives communion without atoning for it's illicit communion and thus another sin? i will, i guess?


gail i really don't want to keep arguing with you and i don't think anyone else wants us to, either, but i am pretty sure that emphasis on lived experience is, if not the core of, then close to the core of what trads call the heresy of modernism

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Mar 18, 2007

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Jun 20, 2005

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i'm going to assume that those two posts are directed at me and pray for you

Let me just come back to this post for a minute, and suggest you take a break and return to this discussion when everyone is less incensed.

I'd like to tell you a story about "I'm praying for you."

In undergrad I co-founded and lead a Gay-Straight Alliance group, it was the first that existed at that school in a deeply red, conservative state. We had maybe a dozen members and got some cool stuff done, like successfully lobbying the school administration to include sexual orientation and gender identity in their non-discrimination language.

We met once a week on Wednesday afternoons, and every meeting there would be a group of students from a campus Christian organization I won't name holding a prayer circle outside. Then as we filed out after the meeting they would be holding hands and tell us "we're praying for you," "Jesus loves you," etc. This was in the main hall of the student union, right in front of the student mailboxes and around the corner from the only cafeteria on campus (it's a small school).

It was patronizing, intimidating, humiliating, and not the least bit comforting. This was a Lutheran college, with about a third of the student body being Catholic, and virtually all of our GSA members were practicing Christians. I'm sure there were some good and pure intentions among those kids praying outside our GSA meetings, but the under 18 teen nude implication was crystal clear: we think what you're doing is wrong and we're going to make a big, dramatic, public show of it to shame you.

In his junior year, the other co-founder of our GSA and a close friend of mine committed suicide. His parents had kicked him out a few years prior, he was an effeminate gay man in a deeply conservative region and caught no end of grief from assholes around campus. "I'm praying for you" was one small contributing factor that pushed him into depression and ending his own life.

Welp that's my story, I guess I've been triggered. My point is that even if you genuinely don't think you're being combative, you are. Yes, other posters are getting testy in response but you're only adding fuel to the fire. We can have a civil discussion about sexuality and Christianity, but I'd encourage you to listen more and post passive-aggressive retorts less.

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Slimy Hog
Apr 22, 2008



Let's talk about something not-terrible:

I am having a little boy this spring and am looking for a good saint's name for him! Let's talk about our favorite saints! Preferably those with life stories that can be told to a little kid.

Although I am Orthodox and am looking for a male saint, don't feel like you have to limit your discussion because of that.

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