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esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

There are no such things as miracles.




Haven't the wives of Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki had to deal with all sorts of nonsense from the Dean/Sam and Jensen/Jared Supernatural shippers? Some people just have no shame and take their fandoms/crushes/whatever too far now with ease of access.

Famous people have always been getting weird letters from fans or whatever, but it's like times a million now.

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May 30, 2006


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Brace yourself for backlash in general. Someone will get hit by this that the general public really likes, and can't accept the accusations against. At that point false accussation wont matter. There is going to be a saturation point as well. Hollywood will not blacklist everyone to the detriment of its own economy beyond a certain point. People will not be willing to let go of their most beloved idols, no matter what they're accused or even convicted of.

Permanently blacklisting people is also not really a great strategy.

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Haven't the wives of Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki had to deal with all sorts of nonsense from the Dean/Sam and Jensen/Jared Supernatural shippers? Some people just have no shame and take their fandoms/crushes/whatever too far now with ease of access.

Famous people have always been getting weird letters from fans or whatever, but it's like times a million now.

Jensen's wife had 'fans' call security on her for being a whore at one of the cons.

Supernatural fans are emily procter sex tape loving insane.

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Doctor Nick
Dec 27, 2003



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The rumor that's always gone around Hollywood is actually the opposite, that David Geffen got very handsy with him when he was just breaking in (the period just post Bill & Ted and My Own Private Idaho).

David Geffen is a ticking time bomb of sexual miconduct, actually, based on the number of rumors about him out there.

I'm interested in hearing about this. what kind of rumors?

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Brace yourself for backlash in general. Someone will get hit by this that the general public really likes, and can't accept the accusations against. At that point false accussation wont matter. There is going to be a saturation point as well. Hollywood will not blacklist everyone to the detriment of its own economy beyond a certain point. People will not be willing to let go of their most beloved idols, no matter what they're accused or even convicted of.

Who has a career after sexual assault accusations will probably depend on a number of things. Severity of the accusations, the number, what direction your career was trending prior to the accusations, talent and quality of the work, who your friends are, how famous the person/people accusing you are, how old you are, if you deny vs. if you own up to it, etc. There's no single equation to decide whether or not someone will ever work in this town again, and it might be a very, very long process, but it won't be impossible for some fo these men to continue working, or to lay low for a while and then return slowly.

Look at Mel Gibson, for example. He came to America in the mid-1980s and during the first decade or so, he was a huge star who dealt with alcoholism quite a bit, and didn't really lack for work when he wanted it and starred in a huge action franchise. He said some dumb homophobic poo poo in the early 90s but that didn't really put a damper on his career. He continued essentially normally until Passion came out, when he started to get criticism for his anti-semitism, and then in 2006, right before Apocalypto came out was the first incident that actually affected his career (the DUI/Sugartits thing) and it took about 5 years (during which the tapes of him yelling horrible racist abuse at his second wife came out) before Jodie Foster put him in The Beaver, then another 4 years (during which RDJ advocated for forgiving Gibson) before Hacksaw Ridge came out and everyone loved it and now he's in a big comedy coming out tomorrow. It took famous friends and high quality work, but a violently abusive anti-semite got work again within 10 years of getting arrested for a DUI and blaming the Jews for ruling the world and yelling that he hoped his wife would get raped by a pack of n******. Weinstein might be long gone, but I definitely don't think we've seen the last of guys like Spacey or Louie. People liked them too much before, and they're too talented, for better or worse. They'll get one gig, and then people will say "hey i remember him" and they'll go on some big apology tour and Hollywood will welcome them back with open arms.

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Not Al-Qaeda
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Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

The right reading for this is the one I'm giving.

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Who has a career after sexual assault accusations will probably depend on a number of things. Severity of the accusations, the number, what direction your career was trending prior to the accusations, talent and quality of the work, who your friends are, how famous the person/people accusing you are, how old you are, if you deny vs. if you own up to it, etc. There's no single equation to decide whether or not someone will ever work in this town again, and it might be a very, very long process, but it won't be impossible for some fo these men to continue working, or to lay low for a while and then return slowly.

Look at Mel Gibson, for example. He came to America in the mid-1980s and during the first decade or so, he was a huge star who dealt with alcoholism quite a bit, and didn't really lack for work when he wanted it and starred in a huge action franchise. He said some dumb homophobic poo poo in the early 90s but that didn't really put a damper on his career. He continued essentially normally until Passion came out, when he started to get criticism for his anti-semitism, and then in 2006, right before Apocalypto came out was the first incident that actually affected his career (the DUI/Sugartits thing) and it took about 5 years (during which the tapes of him yelling horrible racist abuse at his second wife came out) before Jodie Foster put him in The Beaver, then another 4 years (during which RDJ advocated for forgiving Gibson) before Hacksaw Ridge came out and everyone loved it and now he's in a big comedy coming out tomorrow. It took famous friends and high quality work, but a violently abusive anti-semite got work again within 10 years of getting arrested for a DUI and blaming the Jews for ruling the world and yelling that he hoped his wife would get raped by a pack of n******. Weinstein might be long gone, but I definitely don't think we've seen the last of guys like Spacey or Louie. People liked them too much before, and they're too talented, for better or worse. They'll get one gig, and then people will say "hey i remember him" and they'll go on some big apology tour and Hollywood will welcome them back with open arms.

Louie might get back to the inner circle in 5-10 years, but Spacey may very well go to jail, there's now a makeshift survivor community of people he's abused. Multiple stories paint him as a huge rear end in a top hat even if he didn't try to tug on your junk. He's beyond done.

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I'm interested in hearing about this. what kind of rumors?

Sexual favors in exchange for "making you a star, kid!" by pressuring a label he owned/had sway with the higher-ups of to give you/your band a big push, getting you a slot on a star's tour, getting you to a more advanced step in the audition process, the quid quo pro sort of stuff that Hollywood has traded in since time immemorial. Given his career stretches back to 1970, and given the norms of the eras he had massive power in, it shouldn't be a real shock.

Keanu is the only person I've heard definitively tied to Geffen deciding to get a little bit, give a little bit with a hot young star on the verge of a breakthrough, but it wouldn't surprise me if a name like River Phoenix came up.

Me, I'm still waiting for the Jeff Epstein shoe to drop, especially in the ripple of Kevin Spacey's outing (Spacey was close with Epstein) and that dude's registered sex offender status. There's always been smoke around his private plane flights over international waters. That one is explosive as the stories around that involve two Presidents, both of whom have a history of sexual assault! Never mind the princes and Nobel laureates and the whole private island thing (Little St. James).

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Fart City
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!


The stand-up comedy scene seems pretty willing to allow for second chances. Look at Paul Ruebens or Richard Pryor. Obviously their respective scandals don't quite exactly correlate to Louie's in terms of scope, nature, or predatory behavior, but it feels like if given enough time he'll get his redemption tour. The only x-factor is if there's more waiting in the wings. The whole "shoving a lady into a bathroom stall" bit from the Times article certainly implies that there might be.

Spacey, on the other hand, is scorched earth. Not only is he a notorious rear end in a top hat in general, but his misconduct stretched far and wide, and the hole he's in only seems to be getting deeper with each passing day. Like Weinstein, his name is absolutely radioactive now. He's become synonymous with this moment of sexual assault awareness that is happening, and deservedly so.

Edit: to clarify, I'm not saying one assault is better or worse than another. All are equally sickening, and my heart genuinely goes out to the victims of Louie, Spacey, and everyone else that has been exposed. I was speaking specifically in terms of the respective cultures. With Spacey being fired from House of Cards and cut from All The Money In The World, the axe has already dropped.

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Unless I missed something, the only thing Paul Reubens did was jerk off in a porn theater by himself. Shouldn't have even black people have sex been a scandal.

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Fart City
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!


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Unless I missed something, the only thing Paul Reubens did was jerk off in a porn theater by himself. Shouldn't have even girls haveing sex together been a scandal.

Absolutely 100% agree. But I remember when it happened: it basically t-boned his entire career for like, a decade. Again, the correlation to Louie isn't exact. I was using it as an example of how the stand up comedy scene tends to give second chances, not trying to invoke a comparison to Louie's behavior, or his victims.

Edit: and look, I might be completely wrong. There's never been this kind of exposure on celebrity predatory behavior before. If feels like a sea change, and a welcome one at that. It's completely possible that Louie C.K. becomes forever toxic because of this. And if that happens, it is completely deserved. Like to me, I can't really see myself supporting his work going forward, apology or no. There's some bells that can't be unrung.

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May 7, 2006

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Yeah, I was just making sure I hadn't missed anything.

It is remarkably difficult to figure out how you're supposed to "come forward" with information if you don't have a lawyer or any money to hire one and are not a famous person. A friend of mine wants to do so but has no idea how.

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Yeah, I was just making sure I hadn't missed anything.

It is remarkably difficult to figure out how you're supposed to "come forward" with information if you don't have a lawyer or any money to hire one and are not a famous person. A friend of mine wants to do so but has no idea how.

At this point contacting a newspaper like the NY Times is feasible. A few months ago it probably would have been ignored, less so now.

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Fart City
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!


Quite a few of the articles that have come out have included anonymous testimony. If your friend just wants to get their story out there so that their pain is considered and accounted for, an email from a burner account to a publication might be a relatively safe way of doing it.

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May 28, 2006


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Brace yourself for backlash in general. Someone will get hit by this that the general public really likes, and can't accept the accusations against. At that point false accussation wont matter. There is going to be a saturation point as well. Hollywood will not blacklist everyone to the detriment of its own economy beyond a certain point. People will not be willing to let go of their most beloved idols, no matter what they're accused or even convicted of.
I think we make a mistake when we curb our expectations for a movement based on how we think society would react. We live in a society where women were legally allowed to be raped within the last thirty years. The Me Too campaign has at the very least pushed a much different conversation than the Pussy Grabbing conversation last year. Society is a fickle thing and can change. In general, I think meta discussion around movements tends to hinder change because it changes the discussion to arm chair punditry instead of engaging with the actual issue.

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Permanently blacklisting people is also not really a great strategy.
I'd argue it is. Part of the problem with sexual harassment is that the stakes are really out of whack. The abusers can do what they do with a relatively small amount of risk whereas the abused face a disproportionate amount of risk if they speak out. It's a matter of changing who's afraid. Spacey and CK will still live lives of comfort and ease. But them being made an example of hopefully sends a message to people like them.

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Darko
Dec 23, 2004



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Edit: to clarify, I'm not saying one assault is better or worse than another. All are equally sickening, and my heart genuinely goes out to the victims of Louie, Spacey, and everyone else that has been exposed. I was speaking specifically in terms of the respective cultures. With Spacey being fired from House of Cards and cut from All The Money In The World, the axe has already dropped.

All aren't "equal" - they're different levels of wrong. There is a large difference between Louie CK having a jack off fetish and asking women if he could go for it right away (and doing it as soon as he got a yes) and someone threatening people's careers if they don't do it and calling out special forces against them to ruin their careers. There's more than an either/or dichotomy here, and a lot has to do with the nuance of success, consent, and implied power, and a longer discussion about how men who normally got to where they are by taking a lot of chances and being aggressive and using every means at their disposal have an issue with doing that same thing, to varying degrees, in sexual situations.

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Fart City
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!


I mean, I get the point you are trying to make, and a close examination of this specific moment in society is both welcome and necessary, but I'm gonna go ahead and keep feeling how I personally feel about sexual assault/harassment.

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Pedro De Heredia
May 30, 2006


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I'd argue it is. Part of the problem with sexual harassment is that the stakes are really out of whack. The abusers can do what they do with a relatively small amount of risk whereas the abused face a disproportionate amount of risk if they speak out. It's a matter of changing who's afraid. Spacey and CK will still live lives of comfort and ease. But them being made an example of hopefully sends a message to people like them.

I'm not sure about that.

I don't really think it's true that 'abusers can do what they do with a relatively small amount of risk'. The teen ass in shorts magnitude of the consequences that abusers face is pretty large: they can lose their jobs, careers, be tried under the criminal justice system and possibly even go to jail. That is, and has been true, for a long time. What's small is the free sex nude video likelihood that they'll face those consequences. I think that likelihood is small for reasons unrelated to the magnitude (the culture around believing accusations, people's support of celebrities, the difficulty of proving an accusation, etc.). This logic isn't very different than saying that harsher punishments (like the death penalty) are an effective deterrent to crime.

The idea that they're going to be affected by this measure is undercut by your comment that they'll "still live lives of comfort and ease". Is that just an observation? Is it a prerequisite? If Louis CK loses all his money in lawsuits, will he be un-blacklisted? How does this work?

I think it's important to separate the morality of these issues (and the society we want to build) from the economics of the issue. Kevin Spacey's scenes in Scott's movie are being reshot because the people who made that movie want to make money off of it, and they consider that, right now, reshooting is better than releasing with Spacey. Louis CK's specials are off HBO's platform because HBO considers it bad reputation to have their audience see Louis CK's face right now. These are just financial decisions. There's nothing moral or well-thought out about them.

The criminal justice system, flawed as it is, at least has a certain logic. There are different levels of crime, ranked by severity. There are maximum and minimum penalties. There are extenuating factors. And there is some sense that, once a debt to society has been repaid, one is able to re-enter it. The court of public pressure doesn't have that.

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Darko
Dec 23, 2004



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I mean, I get the point you are trying to make, and a close examination of this specific moment in society is both welcome and necessary, but I'm gonna go ahead and keep feeling how I personally feel about sexual assault.

Well, just as an example, Louis CK didn't commit sexual assault from the current reports. He asked permission from all, did not coerce, none were his direct employees as I understand; he was just more successful than they were in the same field. He is accused of sexual misconduct, not assault, for that reason.There are different categories of harassment/assault/surprise sex for very important reasons, and they have different max penalties for those reasons.

It's not just a "semantics" issue, nor is it excusing someone from doing wrong things, either. But the way you approach and deal with an actual predator that did things unrelentingly is different than you approach men who didn't understand how to maintain safer boundaries so they didn't make people feel uncomfortable and threatened, especially since practically all men have been guilty of that to some degree somewhere in their lives (in many cases, misreading things or not understanding what they were doing, due to a mix of being taught by media and other men, and societal gender roles creating different reactions to the same actions between genders).

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Haven't the wives of Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki had to deal with all sorts of nonsense from the Dean/Sam and Jensen/Jared Supernatural shippers? Some people just have no shame and take their fandoms/crushes/whatever too far now with ease of access.

Yeah.

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Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!


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Well, just as an example, Louis CK didn't commit sexual assault from the current reports. He asked permission from all, did not coerce, none were his direct employees as I understand; he was just more successful than they were in the same field. He is accused of sexual misconduct, not assault, for that reason.There are different categories of harassment/assault/surprise sex for very important reasons, and they have different max penalties for those reasons.

It's not just a "semantics" issue, nor is it excusing someone from doing wrong things, either. But the way you approach and deal with an actual predator that did things unrelentingly is different than you approach men who didn't understand how to maintain safer boundaries so they didn't make people feel uncomfortable and threatened, especially since practically all men have been guilty of that to some degree somewhere in their lives (in many cases, misreading things or not understanding what they were doing, due to a mix of being taught by media and other men, and societal gender roles creating different reactions to the same actions between genders).

I updated my post to clarify that I was talking about both sexual assault and harassment, and did so before your reply. Didn't want to come off that I'm stealth--dodging the discussion here. You are right: what CK and Spacey did do fall into two different categories of abuse, and that should be considered in how things move forward in both their respective careers, and in terms of legal response. I do take issue with you implying that it's not "fair" for me to find the actions of both men equally sickening, however. That's a personal reaction on my part, influenced by my own life experiences. Which I'm of course entitled to.

I do appreciate the clarity and thought you're putting into this discussion. I do think that it's important to examine the different levels of what we're seeing here. Like, CK is a scumbag creep who intruded on the personal safety of those he acted out his fetish in front of, but it's not quite the same as hiring ex-Mossad agents to befriend someone under false pretenses. The thing is, as much of a cultural moment as this is, it's also extemely personal for a lot of the people who are finding themselves in these discussions. I think it's important to keep that in consideration, which, honestly, almost everyone here has been doing already.

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Dec 23, 2004



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I updated my post to clarify that I was talking about both sexual assault and harassment, and did so before your reply. Didn't want to come off that I'm stealth--dodging the discussion here. You are right: what CK and Spacey did do fall into two different categories of abuse, and that should be considered in how things move forward in both their respective careers, and in terms of legal response. I do take issue with you implying that it's not "fair" for me to find the actions of both men equally sickening, however. That's a personal reaction on my part, influenced by my own life experiences. Which I'm of course entitled to.

I do appreciate the clarity and thought you're putting into this discussion. I do think that it's important to examine the different levels of what we're seeing here. Like, CK is a scumbag creep who intruded on the personal safety of those we acted out his fetish in front of, but it's not quite the same as hiring ex-Mossad agents to befriend someone under false pretenses. The thing is, as much of a cultural moment as this is, it's also extemely personal for a lot of the people who are finding themselves in these discussions. I think it's important to keep that in consideration, which, honestly, almost everyone here has been doing already.

I agree with your personal feelings being your own, and don't want to come off like I find your feelings not "fair." This is one of the few places online I've seen where a nuanced discussion takes place without people just automatically taking extreme sides either.

I also think the empathy/having been there creates a kind of two sided discussion, as well. Women, unfortunately, almost all have dealt with a man being too aggressive or harassing them to various degrees, if not worse, and thus can easily project situations based on their feelings at those times. Men, on the other hand, have almost all misread situations in the dating world, or made moves they thought were obvious and got shot down, and thus many of them project their situation (and fear of being ruined by a mistake) on situations like Louis CK, which creates a lot of the back and forth on this particular issue that I'm reading online in comments. I mean, personally, things like this make me wonder if what I thought was a clear "yes" in any given occasion in the past was actually a "yes," and there's an amount of fear that comes up with that and a kneejerk reaction that has to be buried. The other side issue is that societal gender imbalance means that successful men are now in a precarious position as they have a level of implied power that they may not necessarily have grown up with, that informs consent differently.

My response to all of that is that we just need to do better, as men, and teach other men better, and then we might not have to worry about making mistakes in the future. But when it comes to the Weinsteins of the world, it's just a clear "screw that crap, no excuse for being a predator."

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Fart City
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!


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My response to all of that is that we just need to do better, as men, and teach other men better, and then we might not have to worry about making mistakes in the future.

On this, there is no daylight between us, my friend. It's rare to have a teachable moment of this caliber fall into the social consciousness. The impetus is on each of us as an individual to insure that it does not go to waste.

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Who has a career after sexual assault accusations will probably depend on a number of things. Severity of the accusations, the number, what direction your career was trending prior to the accusations, talent and quality of the work, who your friends are, how famous the person/people accusing you are, how old you are, if you deny vs. if you own up to it, etc. There's no single equation to decide whether or not someone will ever work in this town again, and it might be a very, very long process, but it won't be impossible for some fo these men to continue working, or to lay low for a while and then return slowly.

Look at Mel Gibson, for example. He came to America in the mid-1980s and during the first decade or so, he was a huge star who dealt with alcoholism quite a bit, and didn't really lack for work when he wanted it and starred in a huge action franchise. He said some dumb homophobic poo poo in the early 90s but that didn't really put a damper on his career. He continued essentially normally until Passion came out, when he started to get criticism for his anti-semitism, and then in 2006, right before Apocalypto came out was the first incident that actually affected his career (the DUI/Sugartits thing) and it took about 5 years (during which the tapes of him yelling horrible racist abuse at his second wife came out) before Jodie Foster put him in The Beaver, then another 4 years (during which RDJ advocated for forgiving Gibson) before Hacksaw Ridge came out and everyone loved it and now he's in a big comedy coming out tomorrow. It took famous friends and high quality work, but a violently abusive anti-semite got work again within 10 years of getting arrested for a DUI and blaming the Jews for ruling the world and yelling that he hoped his wife would get raped by a pack of n******. Weinstein might be long gone, but I definitely don't think we've seen the last of guys like Spacey or Louie. People liked them too much before, and they're too talented, for better or worse. They'll get one gig, and then people will say "hey i remember him" and they'll go on some big apology tour and Hollywood will welcome them back with open arms.

At the risk of sounding like a Gibson apologist, naked black haired girl saying some pretty hosed up poo poo and even domestic abuse are a lot more relatable and forgivable by most people than using your position of power and influence to trawl for and abuse women in a mega-creepy and predatory way. Gibson also gets the crutch of substance abuse.

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Feb 16, 2007

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Lots of good words from good people in this thread.

This is a topic I struggle to put into words - for personal reasons of the obvious kind - so it's really helpful for me to read some eloquent, nuanced, compassionate discussion. Thank you, folks!

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At the risk of sounding like a Gibson apologist, teen lesbians kissing videos saying some pretty hosed up poo poo and even domestic abuse are a lot more relatable and forgivable by most people than using your position of power and influence to trawl for and abuse women in a mega-creepy and predatory way. Gibson also gets the crutch of substance abuse.

Also that most men don't have this kind of relative power, and have nothing to relate it to, and can thus "holier than thou" in these kinds of cases.

I see a lot of "quiet" reactions from bosses/CEOs/wealthy/ultra successful men, where a lot of them (note, probably all) have leveraged their wealth and power for attraction and sex, and a lot of outrage from 9-5 workers on my feed who probably secretly dreamed of being rich and powerful and being able to pick up women due to it but never did. Meanwhile, Gibson is the crazy drunk uncle that practically everyone can relate to.

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Also that most men don't have this kind of relative power, and have nothing to relate it to, and can thus "holier than thou" in these kinds of cases.

I see a lot of "quiet" reactions from bosses/CEOs/wealthy/ultra successful men, where a lot of them (note, probably all) have leveraged their wealth and power for attraction and sex, and a lot of outrage from 9-5 workers on my feed who probably secretly dreamed of being rich and powerful and being able to pick up women due to it but never did. Meanwhile, Gibson is the crazy drunk uncle that practically everyone can relate to.

Yeah, there's zero risk of the mass populace automatically judging themselves by condemning a hyper creep like Weinstein. But everyone's said some fully stupid poo poo whilst inebriated. Maybe not exhortations of gang surprise sex, but still.

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At the risk of sounding like a Gibson apologist, amateur outdoor sex video saying some pretty hosed up poo poo and even domestic abuse are a lot more relatable and forgivable by most people than using your position of power and influence to trawl for and abuse women in a mega-creepy and predatory way. Gibson also gets the crutch of substance abuse.

Gibson never got physically violent with anyone AFAIK, either.

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Gibson never got physically violent with anyone AFAIK, either.

I looked into that, actually, because I didn't think so. Apparently be plea bargained/no contested a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. No idea what that stemmed from or what evidence there was. Clearly, regardless of whether he did or not, most people don't know/think he did.

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Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

The right reading for this is the one I'm giving.

Mel Gibson was AAA list with powerful friends, in an era where this was frankly a less important issue. He had ugly marriage breakups (involving restraining orders), he's an antisemite fundy, and he's mysteriously gotten breaks from law enforcement whenever they felt they could chance to give him one. If he were any ordinary person, to find him you'd have to look in the bottom of a hole somewhere.

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I looked into that, actually, because I didn't think so. Apparently be plea bargained/no contested a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. No idea what that stemmed from or what evidence there was. Clearly, regardless of whether he did or not, most people don't know/think he did.

His ex-wife Robyn told the court she never experienced any physical abuse from Gibson; so there's that, too.

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DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

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It's frankly naive to think this will make people in other fields more willing to come forward or reject coercion. Nothing has changed about the dynamics of power for anyone who can't leverage media attention against their abusers, which virtually no one but celebrities victims or victims of celebrities can do

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Aug 27, 2015

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I was going to say "Wes Anderson nooooo" then remembered the incredibly out of place sexualized scene between two pre-teens in Moonrise Kingdom.

Still a great movie and compared to everything else it's really tame but it struck me as super out of place, even if the themes of the scene were on message.

Wim Wenders though?

Ahh poo poo Moonrise kingdom is one of my most favourite movies ever :[ god I hope those kids aren't damaged....

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


Gibson seems more like the self-destructive type, classic case of untreated bi-polar.

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Sep 13, 2011
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Can't wait for all these celebrities to receive "treatment" and be back at work within 3 months.

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MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007

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quote:

“You should gently caress her to make her realize she’s gay.” He said this about me during a cast and crew “meet and greet” before we began filming, X Men: The Last Stand. I was eighteen years old. He looked at a woman standing next to me, ten years my senior, pointed to me and said: “You should gently caress her to make her realize she’s gay.” He was the film’s director, Brett Ratner.

I was a young adult who had not yet come out to myself. I knew I was gay, but did not know, so to speak. I felt violated when this happened. I looked down at my feet, didn’t say a word and watched as no one else did either. This man, who had cast me in the film, started our months of filming at a work event with this horrific, unchallenged plea. He “outed” me with no regard for my well-being, an act we all recognize as homophobic. I proceeded to watch him on set say degrading things to women. I remember a woman walking by the monitor as he made a comment about her “flappy pussy”.

We are all entitled to come into an awareness of our sexual orientation privately and on our own terms. I was young and although already a working actor for so long I had in many ways been insulated, growing up on film sets instead of surrounded by my peers. This public, aggressive outing left me with long standing feelings of shame, one of the most destructive results of homophobia. Making someone feel ashamed of who they are is a cruel manipulation, designed to oppress and repress. I was robbed of more than autonomy over my ability to define myself. Ratner’s comment replayed in my mind many times over the years as I encountered homophobia and coped with feelings of reluctance and uncertainty about the industry and my future in it. The difference is that I can now assert myself and use my voice to to fight back against the insidious queer and transphobic attitude in Hollywood and beyond. Hopefully having the position I have, I can help people who may be struggling to be accepted and allowed to be who they are –to thrive. Vulnerable young people without my advantages are so often diminished and made to feel they have no options for living the life they were meant to joyously lead.

I got into an altercation with Brett at a certain point. He was pressuring me, in front of many people, to don a t-shirt with “Team Ratner” on it. I said no and he insisted. I responded, “I am not on your team.” Later in the day, producers of the film came to my trailer to say that I “couldn’t talk like that to him.” I was being reprimanded, yet he was not being punished nor fired for the blatantly homophobic and abusive behavior we all witnessed. I was an actor that no one knew. I was eighteen and had no tools to know how to handle the situation.

I have been a professional actor since the age of ten. I’ve had the good fortune to work with many honorable and respectful collaborators both behind and in front of the camera. But the behavior I’m describing is ubiquitous. They (abusers), want you to feel small, to make you insecure, to make you feel like you are indebted to them, or that your actions are to blame for their unwelcome advances.

When I was sixteen a director took me to dinner (a professional obligation and a very common one). He fondled my leg under the table and said, “You have to make the move, I can’t.” I did not make the move and I was fortunate to get away from that situation. It was a painful realization: my safety was not guaranteed at work. An adult authority figure for whom I worked intended to exploit me, physically. I was sexually assaulted by a grip months later. I was asked by a director to sleep with a man in his late twenties and to tell them about it. I did not. This is just what happened during my sixteenth year, a teenager in the entertainment industry.

Look at the history of what’s happened to minors who’ve described sexual abuse in Hollywood. Some of them are no longer with us, lost to substance abuse and suicide. Their victimizers? Still working. Protected even as I write this. You know who they are; they’ve been discussed behind closed doors as often as Weinstein was. If I, a person with significant privilege, remain reluctant and at such risk simply by saying a person’s name, what are the options for those who do not have what I have?

Let’s remember the epidemic of violence against women in our society disproportionately affects low income women, particularly women of color, trans and queer women and indigenous women, who are silenced by their economic circumstances and profound mistrust of a justice system that acquits the guilty in the face of overwhelming evidence and continues to oppress people of color. I have the means to hire security if I feel threatened. I have the wealth and insurance to receive mental health care. I have the privilege of having a platform that enables me to write this and have it published, while the most marginalized do not have access to such resources. The reality is, women of color, trans and queer and indigenous women have been leading this fight for decades (forever actually). Marsha P. Johnson, Sylvia Rivera, Winona LaDuke, Miss Major, Audre Lorde, bell hooks, to name a few. Misty Upham fought tirelessly to end violence against indigenous women, domestic workers and undocumented women. Misty was found dead at the bottom of a cliff three years ago. Her father, Charles Upham, just made a Facebook post saying she was raped at a party by a Miramax executive. The most marginalized have been left behind. As a cis, white lesbian, I have benefited and have the privileges I have, because of these extraordinary and courageous individuals who have led the way and risked their lives while doing so. White supremacy continues to silence people of color, while I have the rights I have because of these leaders. They are who we should be listening to and learning from.

These abusers make us feel powerless and overwhelmed by their empire. Let’s not forget the sitting Supreme Court justice and President of the United States. One accused of sexual harassment by Anita Hill, whose testimony was discredited. The other proudly describing his own pattern of assault to an entertainment reporter. How many men in the media – titans of industry - need to be exposed for us to understand the gravity of the situation and to demand the fundamental safety and respect that is our right?

Bill Cosby was known to be predatory. The crimes were his, but many were complicit. Many more chose to look the other way. Harvey was known to be predatory. The crimes were his, but many were complicit. Many more chose to look the other way. We continue to celebrate filmmaker Roman Polanski, who was convicted of drugging and anally raping a young girl and who fled sentencing. A fugitive from justice. I’ve heard the industry decry Weinstein’s behavior and vow to affect meaningful change. But let’s be truthful: the list is long and still protected by the status quo. We have work to do. We cannot look the other way.

I did a Woody Allen movie and it is the biggest regret of my career. I am ashamed I did this. I had yet to find my voice and was not who I am now and felt pressured, because “of course you have to say yes to this Woody Allen film.” Ultimately, however, it is my choice what films I decide to do and I made the wrong choice. I made an awful mistake.

I want to see these men have to face what they have done. I want them to not have power anymore. I want them to sit and think about who they are without their lawyers, their millions, their fancy cars, houses upon houses, their “playboy” status and swagger.

What I want the most, is for this to result in healing for the victims. For Hollywood to wake up and start taking some responsibility for how we all have played a role in this. I want us to reflect on this endemic issue and how this power dynamic of abuse leads to an enormous amount of suffering. Violence against women is an epidemic in this country and around the world. How is this cascade of immorality and injustice shaping our society? One of the greatest risks to a pregnant woman’s health in the United States is murder. Trans women of color in this country have a life expectancy of thirty-five. Why are we not addressing this as a society? We must remember the consequences of such actions. Mental health issues, suicide, eating disorders, substance abuse, to name a few.

What are we afraid to say and why can’t we say it? Women, particularly the most marginalized, are silenced, while powerful abusers can scream as loudly as they want, lie as much as they want and continue to profit through it all.

This is a long awaited reckoning. It must be. It’s sad that“codes of conduct” have to be enforced to ensure we experience fundamental human decency and respect. Inclusion and representation are the answer. We’ve learned that the status quo perpetuates unfair, victimizing behavior to protect and perpetuate itself. Don’t allow this behavior to be normalized. Don’t compare wrongs or criminal acts by their degrees of severity. Don’t allow yourselves to be numb to the voices of victims coming forward. Don’t stop demanding our civil rights. I am grateful to anyone and everyone who speaks out against abuse and trauma they have suffered. You are breaking the silence. You are revolution.

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Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


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I'm not sure about that.

I don't really think it's true that 'abusers can do what they do with a relatively small amount of risk'. The interactive sex lisa ann magnitude of the consequences that abusers face is pretty large: they can lose their jobs, careers, be tried under the criminal justice system and possibly even go to jail. That is, and has been true, for a long time. What's small is the old woman porn tubes likelihood that they'll face those consequences. I think that likelihood is small for reasons unrelated to the magnitude (the culture around believing accusations, people's support of celebrities, the difficulty of proving an accusation, etc.). This logic isn't very different than saying that harsher punishments (like the death penalty) are an effective deterrent to crime.

The idea that they're going to be affected by this measure is undercut by your comment that they'll "still live lives of comfort and ease". Is that just an observation? Is it a prerequisite? If Louis CK loses all his money in lawsuits, will he be un-blacklisted? How does this work?
I suppose I disagree with you on a couple of fronts here. How likely something is to happen does impact risktaking. It's why people don't bike with helmets on. The magnitude of the risk is high, but so is their confidence in an accident occurring being unlikely. But the first time you get a concussion, you're probably more likely to wear a helmet.

What's out of whack is that I don't think sexual harassment feels like a risk to a lot of abusers. At the most extreme levels you have Weinstein who had a personal network of spies, Woody Allen's alleged mob connections, Bill O'Reily being contractually protected from any HR complaints, Donald Trump's tendency to use defamation and other counter-suits as a wall against any attacks, and CK's kingmaker status. For most people, you just have a broader surprise sex culture. And the fact is that, yes, the odds of CK losing all of his money if very, very slim. And even if he never worked again, he'd still be worth more money than most of use would ever make if we worked for a century. He could lose half of his money and the former statement would still be true.

Meanwhile for the accused, the risk of burning bridges, being seen as a problem, closing off professional opportunities, and receiving threats isn't just exceedingly high, but probable.

I understand the issues with the "court of public pressure," but the reality is that we currently live in a world where public pressure has more often been used against victims than in their favor.

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Fart City
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!


Wow. Kudos to Page for being brave enough to dissect and discuss that trauma in an open forum. That is wholly horrific.

gently caress Brett Ratner, man. That dude has been notoriously scummy for a long time, but what's striking in her account is the maliciousness of his behavior. Between that and Olivia Munn's story, he's proven to be an all-around grotesque human being, who shouldn't be allowed within a hundred feet of a professional production for the rest of his life.

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Antisamitism
Jun 18, 2005

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I looked into that, actually, because I didn't think so. Apparently be plea bargained/no contested a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. No idea what that stemmed from or what evidence there was. Clearly, regardless of whether he did or not, most people don't know/think he did.

IIRC, that case was related to the fishing in the nude that came out in 2010.

quote:

When Grigorieva says Gibson hit her in the face and broke her teeth – “What kind of man is that?” she asks – Gibson replies: “Oh, you’re all angry now! You know what, you [expletive] deserved it.”

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Feb 4, 2007

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