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Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible

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The youtube idiots I don't understand are the ones that make hours long movie reviews. Why would you watch a movie review that's almost as long as the movie? At that point you might as well just see the film.

But how will you know if you like it or not unless someone spends 3 hours telling you why you should or shouldn't like it?

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Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



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Exactly. Nobody was "reviling" TPM in 1999 because the idea of reviling movies was (and still is) ridiculous. You didn't have Youtube idiots bleating at all hours of the day about 30 Ways Jar-Jar RUINS the Phantom Menace.

Yeah, exactly. Like, I am not a fan of the prequels at all although there have been some good points made on these forums and it is cool to think about that stuff. But I occasionally lurk that thread and like clockwork every month someone comes in and says "waaiiiitttt, there are people who actually group sex in shower defend the prequels???" and it's just baffling to me that people have this mental block where they can't understand anyone going against the agreed upon zeitgeist even in really minor ways.

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Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

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Why is it ridiculous? People can hate movies and always have. Now there is just a larger outlet for it.

I am not sure if you're arguing that because we couldn't scream online meant no one really hated it.

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Dr. S.O. Feelgood
Dec 30, 2008


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I'm seeing a lot of "people hated Jake Lloyd" and not a lot of "I've never met a human being who had a good thing to say about Hayden Christensen."

I actually thought he played ok off Kevin Kline in Life as a House.

I heard he was good in Shattered Glass or whatever it was called. I don’t think I’ve actually seen him in anything else. I also recall hearing Jake Lloyd got all his money stolen by his parents or something like that. That must suck a lot, to be pretty much universally hated for something you did when you were ten and you don’t even have anything to show for it.

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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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My main problem with this debate is the implication that crazy people freaking out nonstop about pop entertainment didn't happen until the modern internet. I mean, maybe you had to work a little harder to get people's attention but people have been losing their poo poo together for a long time and Star Wars seems like the most obvious example of that as its been a cultural phenomenon since the 70s.

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Mar 3, 2004

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I am sure if Godfather 3 was released this year people would scream up and down about it (I actually like it) but I know the general consensus is that it's garbage. I think....

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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


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My main problem with this debate is the implication that crazy people freaking out nonstop about pop entertainment didn't happen until the modern internet. I mean, maybe you had to work a little harder to get people's attention but people have been losing their poo poo together for a long time and Star Wars seems like the most obvious example of that as its been a cultural phenomenon since the 70s.

Nobody is saying that. This is an entirely new level of polarization, though (before you brush this off, I say this as someone who was a teenager in the 80s and wrote numerous letters to fanzines).

Like everyone knew that Conan the Destroyer was worse than Conan the Barbarian, but the idea in 1987 that somebody would honestly hate it and post an electronic fanzine letter that said something like "20 ways Conan the Destroyer was SCREWED UP by Wilt Chamberlain" by some nobody, that would be widely cited by people who didn't enjoy the movie, would be laughable.

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My main problem with this debate is the implication that crazy people freaking out nonstop about pop entertainment didn't happen until the modern internet. I mean, maybe you had to work a little harder to get people's attention but people have been losing their poo poo together for a long time and Star Wars seems like the most obvious example of that as its been a cultural phenomenon since the 70s.

Anyone have that "If Empire had been criticized like The Last Jedi" screen capture handy?

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Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible

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Nobody is saying that. This is an entirely new level of polarization, though (before you brush this off, I say this as someone who was a teenager in the 80s and wrote numerous letters to fanzines).

Like everyone knew that Conan the Destroyer was worse than Conan the Barbarian, but the idea in 1987 that somebody would honestly hate it and post an electronic fanzine letter that said something like "20 ways Conan the Destroyer was SCREWED UP by Wilt Chamberlain" by some nobody, that would be widely cited by people who didn't enjoy the movie, would be laughable.

Heh, I have an old sci-fi magazine that had a review of "Conan the Destroyer" in it and two things I remember about it was:

1) He liked it more than Conan the Barbarian (He said it did a better job capturing the spirit of the comics, which isn't surprising since it was written by the comic writers)
2) He wished someone could've convinced Arnold to dye his hair black

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Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



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Why is it ridiculous? People can hate movies and always have. Now there is just a larger outlet for it.

I am not sure if you're arguing that because we couldn't scream online meant no one really hated it.

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My main problem with this debate is the implication that crazy people freaking out nonstop about pop entertainment didn't happen until the modern internet. I mean, maybe you had to work a little harder to get people's attention but people have been losing their poo poo together for a long time and Star Wars seems like the most obvious example of that as its been a cultural phenomenon since the 70s.

My specific point at least is less about people hating the movies than about there forming a kind of general consensus that certain movies are objectively bad or good and agreed upon by "most people" and this driving a ton of discussion and debate. It's less people screaming "this sucks/no it's good" than it is about a judgement being formed and cemented and people going to bat dad young daughter porn hard when it is challenged.

This whole discussion started out with don't even fink arguing that "widespread revulsion was immediate" while faced with a bunch of actual people and reviews and footage of people saying they liked the movie initially. I don't think you would have anything like that statement without the internet giving a widespread way for people to congregate and share opinions while simultaneously having the anonymity where you could say that any dissent is from "a core of naysayers".

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Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

Forreal, call me 'Zelda' in front of my crew again and you're going back in the barrel.



hating a movie is fine but turning yourself into a cartoon being all "whuh? buh? people liked a thing i didn't???" needs to have gone out of style ages ago

but if anything it feels like it's getting more widespread

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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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But like 1999 had the internet and messageboards and chat rooms and livejournals and stuff. Radio was a thing where people rambled about poo poo that didn't matter decades before youtube and podcasts and other people would call them up and scream that they were wrong. The Late Night Shows used to exist for people to push this stuff and for the hosts to make fun of stuff people were making fun of. Zines and newsletters. AIM and ICQ. We've probably been doing this since cave drawings.

I grant that its easier for a random person to scream real loudly and have a lot of people hear them today than it was in 1999, but I don't think the idea that there weren't narratives that were advanced, popularized, and debated on a wide scale is a little myopic. Or what's the version of that where you can only see a little bit backwards? Maybe it moved a little slower and things didn't go "viral" in mere hours or days. But I think it still happened, and we were already into the internet way of things by then.

And maybe I'm misinterpreting the argument. But that's how its reading to me. Like 1999 not only had Phantom Menace but it had Matrix, Fight Club, Office Space, Sixth Sense, American Pie, Varsity Blues, Eyes Wide Shut, American Beauty, and the Blair Witch Project and feel confident that I had ideas and narratives bounce around about all those films at the time too.

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I mean, you can say all that. But I just looked at TheForce.net forums from 2001 and everyone's way more chill and way more positive than we are in the Star Wars thread here today.

Widespread social media has radicalized all of our opinions.

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Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

The right reading for this is the one I'm giving.

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So once again we've done the thing where someone rewrites reality, and when people come in to set the records straight as to actual observable reality ("the Phantom Menace was universally reviled when it opened" - "no it wasn't") it becomes somehow a statement on the quality of the film.

Just take the L and get lost.

"The spirit of TPM was betrayed when people talked about it on the Internet, a net drain on human discourse" - a person who doesn't realize their potential as a comedian

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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Point of fact: There was no livejournal at the beginning of 1999. It went online one month before Phantom Menace.

I don't understand how "poo poo has polarized incredibly recently and allows consensus to form much quicker these days and allows people to form their own epistemic bubbles very easily and performatively practice their online identities in front of others" keeps getting turned into "nobody knew what they liked and nobody could discuss anything with anyone, also talk radio is just like Youtube" it's genuinely, no-poo poo baffling to me.

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Serf
May 5, 2011








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I'm seeing a lot of "people hated Jake Lloyd" and not a lot of "I've never met a human being who had a good thing to say about Hayden Christensen."

I actually thought he played ok off Kevin Kline in Life as a House.

christensen is hot and also was good as anakin

lloyd isn't great now, but at the time tpm came out i didn't mind him. hell, jar-jar wasn't even that bad as a kid. he was a silly alien guy

since this is the comic book movies thread though i will say that the cbm i'm most looking forward to this year is new mutants. superhero horror could be interesting

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Jan 1, 2010

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I heard he was good in Shattered Glass or whatever it was called. I don’t think I’ve actually seen him in anything else. I also recall hearing Jake Lloyd got all his money stolen by his parents or something like that. That must suck a lot, to be pretty much universally hated for something you did when you were ten and you don’t even have anything to show for it.
I thought he was perfect casting in Shattered Glass. Not to imply he's perfect for whiny unlikeable characters, I just think he was really good. He plays off Sarsgaard excellently and he's just so wonderfully hatable.
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It's not a Robert Pattinson situation where it's like "no he's actually like, a really good actor, guys" I don't think but I think Hayden can be good in some specific roles. That don't involve Attack of the Clones caliber writing.

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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


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"The spirit of TPM was betrayed when people talked about it on the Internet, a net drain on human discourse" - a person who doesn't realize their potential as a comedian

Are you still making up poo poo to try to dunk on me after getting dogpiled for half a page for being delusional? Take a hint.

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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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Point of fact: There was no livejournal at the beginning of 1999. It went online one month before Phantom Menace.
I stand corrected. Also slightly embarrassed that in 1999 I had yet to actually go through my livejournal phase. I had hoped I could chalk that up to teen years.

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I don't understand how "poo poo has polarized incredibly recently and allows consensus to form much quicker these days and allows people to form their own epistemic bubbles very easily and performatively practice their online identities in front of others" keeps getting turned into "nobody knew what they liked and nobody could discuss anything with anyone, also talk radio is just like Youtube" it's genuinely, no-poo poo baffling to me.
I think you're reading into things as much as you're accusing others of. I concede that things move faster now. I'm less on board with the conclusion that that means it people didn't get hardened opinions and debates at near the same level. Maybe it didn't happen in days or a week, but I'm not convinced that makes it less passionate or polarized a month or months later.

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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


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I think you're reading into things as much as you're accusing others of. I concede that things move faster now. I'm less on board with the conclusion that that means it people didn't get hardened opinions and debates at near the same level. Maybe it didn't happen in days or a week, but I'm not convinced that makes it less passionate or polarized a month or months later.

Thank you for expounding.

There are psychological studies - numerous ones - that show that people's attitudes are shaped by their surroundings and communities. This is why Fox-News watching relatives gradually become insufferable.

Online has become a polarized wasteland filled to the brim with attention-grabbing bad-faith and ultimately ignorant analysis that's totally devoid of nuance and consists of talking points and soundbites that convey no actual meaning.

It's the Fox News model and it's everywhere, with predictably toxic results. Somebody whose lukewarm on something becomes a hater, or a lover, depending on the online circles they travel in.

You're free to disagree. That's all I have to say, I think we both understand where the other guy is coming from even if we don't agree.

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Mar 12, 2008

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Thank you for expounding.

There are psychological studies - numerous ones - that show that people's attitudes are shaped by their surroundings and communities. This is why Fox-News watching relatives gradually become insufferable.

Online has become a polarized wasteland filled to the brim with attention-grabbing bad-faith and ultimately ignorant analysis that's totally devoid of nuance and consists of talking points and soundbites that convey no actual meaning.

It's the Fox News model and it's everywhere, with predictably toxic results. Somebody whose lukewarm on something becomes a hater, or a lover, depending on the online circles they travel in.

You're free to disagree. That's all I have to say, I think we both understand where the other guy is coming from even if we don't agree.

Yeah, for me the key word there is "gradually" which is why I'm less convinced that the quick turn around of opinions and polarizing of opinions is as important as the fact that people just form hardened, polarized opinions anyway. I think it taking longer actually hardens them further (which I think you'd agree with) so the time it takes them to get there is less important than the amount of time they hear it repeated.

So yeah, no one was jumping on Twitter the weekend Phantom Menace came out and seeing a barrage of negative opinions that trended and reached a ton of people. But if they spent weeks hearing jokes about Jar Jar and hearing people wonder what the gently caress a midochlorian was or people complaining about the kid or senatorial and trade debates than that's arguably more likely to make an impact on you than a quick barrage on Twitter before something else trends.

But either way I think we'd both agree that the really effect is the opinion you've lived with for an extended period of time.

Like I said, my actual memory of Phantom Menace was pretty mixed with people thinking Darth Maul looked cool, they hated Jar Jar, there were some strong opinions on Lloyd, pod racing, midochlorians, and the amount of time spent on space politics and naturally the hardcore fans who though their childhood had been raped.

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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


You know, it's true, I do remember "George Lucas raped my childhood" but it was from the histrionic babies at AintItCoolNews and nobody took them seriously. If people started complaining a lot about Phantom Menace they got hit with that.

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I am sure if Godfather 3 was released this year people would scream up and down about it (I actually like it) but I know the general consensus is that it's garbage. I think....

The Godfather Part III looks like garbage when you compare it to parts 1 & 2. Considering those movies won Best Picture and are regarded by respected critics as some of the best movies of all time, you've got to re-adjust your expectations.

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Oct 19, 2008


Immensely proud that we're only four pages in to a new comic book thread and it's already violent clashes over the quality of the Star Wars prequels (which were good).

Apropos of something else, are there any comic book movies with baptism scenes?

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Immensely proud that we're only four pages in to a new comic book thread and it's already violent clashes over the quality of the Star Wars prequels (which were good).

Apropos of something else, are there any comic book movies with baptism scenes?

Justice League has free extreme sex movies Clark going into the water and being reborn. Also Blade 2 has a similar scene with the giant pool of blood. I feel like there's more but those two jump out to me immediately.

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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


There's Zod's unholy baptism in Batman v Superman
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uh...that's all I can think of right now

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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

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I apologize for my part in it and my indirect setting it off. Let me try and fix things.

Would it help get the thread back on course if I said I've been waiting to watch Wonder Woman because I can't decide if I should rewatch MoS and BvS to see if they were better than I thought on my first watch (which was not very good)? I might start that tonight as Punisher didn't really take me when I watched the first 2 episodes last night.

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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


You should watch Wonder Woman before any sort of rewatch of MoS or BvS. It has no ties to those movies, thematically or otherwise.

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Mar 12, 2008

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I know but I'm a weird completionist nerd who is forcing myself to watch six Star Wars movies I've already seen because I want to watch the new ones. I recognize my flaws.

And honestly, I kind of want to give MoS and BvS a shot to show me half of what you guys see in them and if I don't do with Wonder Woman I might never do it.

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Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

The right reading for this is the one I'm giving.

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I know but I'm a weird completionist nerd who is forcing myself to watch six Star Wars movies I've already seen because I want to watch the new ones. I recognize my flaws.

And honestly, I kind of want to give MoS and BvS a shot to show me half of what you guys see in them and if I don't do with Wonder Woman I might never do it.

Man of Steel is a perfectly OK movie and I have no idea what anyone's real problem is with it. I think the worst people can throw at it is that it has less in common with Superman as previously realized in movies or the recent cartoons. Superman's a little glum but then so is everyone in the 9/11 zeitgeist, more so than we all recognized at the time. We already did the cherry pie and hot dogs happy-go-lucky Superman five times, and like three or so of those were crap.

People tifa lockheart sex video really started getting mad when the new movies wrote in Batman as a person who needed Superman's help to be human, where the only other real portrayal of that is as equals with different methods and politics.

Wonder Woman is a solid if largely unremarkable movie, and I think its main achievement, outside of a DC movie that is not also a writing or editing mess, is that proving that people will go see movies helmed by women in the same or greater numbers as your average movie for 18-29 white males.

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Mar 12, 2008

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Yeah, I'm familiar with all the arguments for Man of Steel. I follow this thread. It wasn't my take on things and I fully expect to enjoy Wonder Woman more than the other two. I also enjoy the bulk of the MCU more than the other 2, if not all of it, so I'm pretty far from the common opinion in here. But I'm open to changing my opinion and there's been plenty of films or shows or books or albums that I took to on a second go around, especially if I was looking for something new. So I figure I'll give both films a second watch and see if anything changes.

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Apropos of something else, are there any comic book movies with baptism scenes?

The Excessive Machine scene in Barbarella.

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Nov 5, 2009


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Immensely proud that we're only four pages in to a new comic book thread and it's already violent clashes over the quality of the Star Wars prequels (which were good).

Apropos of something else, are there any comic book movies with baptism scenes?

Ronan's introduction in Guardians 1.

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He is a physical freak, but Savage Dog was a hopeless use of him and Zaror. Especially since their meeting in Undisputed 3 is loving amazing.

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"People are starting to look at the prequels more fondly" is entirely being cooked up in the CD think tank and Wookieepedia. Widespread revulsion at Phantom Menace was immediate, but there's always been a core of naysayers trying to actively rewrite history on the quality of the film and now how it was even received.

Hayden Christensen got a massive cheer last year at some Star Wars thing. The prequels are that kid you hated in High school that you are now fine with, because you've grown the gently caress up and no longer hate someone for having a bigger pog collection.

Unless, you know, you're still super hung up on pogs.

Also, movies that are universally reviled don't make a billion dollars over 37 weeks.

I mean, me and the other nerds at my high school hated it, because we were nerds and we wanted to be better than people, and we chose to show that by hating something that most people didn't think about very much.

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I heard he was good in Shattered Glass or whatever it was called. I don’t think I’ve actually seen him in anything else. I also recall hearing Jake Lloyd got all his money stolen by his parents or something like that. That must suck a lot, to be pretty much universally hated for something you did when you were ten and you don’t even have anything to show for it.

He was good in 'Life as a House' as well, as an angsty teen. Honestly, he was probably a perfectly fine young actor who got pigeonholed and written off forever far too young.

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Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008



I have to rewatch Wonder Woman again. I remember liking it a whole lot at the time, then I stewed in it a while and liked it a little less (but still liked it). I was reminded about it on twitter when someone said that Wonder Woman is an important super hero in these times because she believes and loves mankind despite not deserving it and I had to rack my brain to when this was a thing in the film. Aside from the end when she monologues about it, was this ever demonstrated in the film?

Saving that village was more about wanting to help them rather than believing in mankind.

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