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Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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I have to rewatch Wonder Woman again. I remember liking it a whole lot at the time, then I stewed in it a while and liked it a little less (but still liked it). I was reminded about it on twitter when someone said that Wonder Woman is an important super hero in these times because she believes and loves mankind despite not deserving it and I had to rack my brain to when this was a thing in the film. Aside from the end when she monologues about it, was this ever demonstrated in the film?

Saving that village was more about wanting to help them rather than believing in mankind.

It took the Marvel approach to themes, by just having her explain it in the end.

Also sparing poison lady.

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Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

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Yeah, exactly. Like, I am not a fan of the prequels at all although there have been some good points made on these forums and it is cool to think about that stuff. But I occasionally lurk that thread and like clockwork every month someone comes in and says "waaiiiitttt, there are people who actually miss maine teen usa defend the prequels???"

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Why is it ridiculous? People can hate movies and always have. Now there is just a larger outlet for it.
Every couple months at least, someone will pop up and write over 1,000 words to the effect that [Star Wars prequels, BvS, whatever] is just bad, it's absurd that anyone would like it, anyone who says they like it is a contrarian hipster. But they're definitely not mad at anyone else for liking something they don't like, in fact, they're actually laughing.

Writing lots of words about why something isn't even worth discussion actually is ridiculous and funny though.

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The MSJ
May 17, 2010



Watch K.Waste's Man of Steel video, y'all.

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Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Every couple months at least, someone will pop up and write over 1,000 words to the effect that [Star Wars prequels, BvS, whatever] is just bad, it's absurd that anyone would like it, anyone who says they like it is a contrarian hipster. But they're definitely not mad at anyone else for liking something they don't like, in fact, they're actually laughing.

Writing lots of words about why something isn't even worth discussion actually is ridiculous and funny though.

There's also a difference between watching a movie, disliking it and getting back to work, and spending a large chunk of your day online, where your pop-culture tastes are an identity marker. And the sort of rabid dislike you see of Man of Steel or whatever is one of those markers. It's only really possible with constant reinforcement, which you only get online.

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Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

Forreal, call me 'Zelda' in front of my crew again and you're going back in the barrel.



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I have to rewatch Wonder Woman again. I remember liking it a whole lot at the time, then I stewed in it a while and liked it a little less (but still liked it). I was reminded about it on twitter when someone said that black pussy and butt Wonder Woman is an important super hero in these times because she believes and loves mankind despite not deserving it and I had to rack my brain to when this was a thing in the film. Aside from the end when she monologues about it, was this ever demonstrated in the film?

Saving that village was more about wanting to help them rather than believing in mankind.

ironically enough this is more accurately why snyder's superman is important

the wonder woman movie just kinda...did the exact same thing but with worse writing

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Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008



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It took the Marvel approach to themes, by just having her explain it in the end.

Also sparing poison lady.


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ironically enough this is more accurately why snyder's superman is important

the wonder woman movie just kinda...did the exact same thing but with worse writing

I was just thinking that too but I didn't say anything because it wasn't appropriate for the moment (I'm not one to piss in anyone's cereal, even if it's just pure sugar, on social media) and I wasn't 100% sure. It was kind of a moment of clarity for me on why Man of Steel and Batman v Superman didn't work for, seemingly, a lot of people online - you're not told, outright, what the morals, themes or messages are at the end. And that the imagery speaks for itself and never contradicts what is being said. It's a part of the reason why I like Zack Snyder's entries a whole lot.

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Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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I was just thinking that too but I didn't say anything because it wasn't appropriate for the moment (I'm not one to piss in anyone's cereal, even if it's just pure sugar, on social media) and I wasn't 100% sure. It was kind of a moment of clarity for me on why Man of Steel and Batman v Superman didn't work for, seemingly, a lot of people online - you're not told, outright, what the morals, themes or messages are at the end. And that the imagery speaks for itself and never contradicts what is being said. It's a part of the reason why I like Zack Snyder's entries a whole lot.

It's not a coincidence that Wonder Woman, the movie that spells out its themes, has been the best received. It's not coincidence that Winter Soldier and Civil War, that have their themes spelled out in extended shot-reverse shot dialogue scenes, are also really well praised, just as Nolan's were. This is going to sound snobbier than I mean it to, but a good chunk of the cinematic audience (or at least, a good chunk of people who theoretically know and write about film) are cinematically illiterate. And the funny thing is, all those films, except Civil War, had already communicated all their themes in other ways. They just also spelled it out.

Civil War didn't know what it was trying to say or how to say it. It is a bad movie. Pee and poo all the way down.

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Brother Entropy
Dec 27, 2009

Forreal, call me 'Zelda' in front of my crew again and you're going back in the barrel.



on this note goddamn would logan have been like 10 times better if there wasn't that scene where patrick stewart explains the entire plot to the movie that the movie you're currently watching gets a bulk of inspiration from

how little trust must you have in your audience to put something like that in your film

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Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

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I liked Civil War. I think the Russo's are managing the MCU fine for regular audience consumption even if its not optimal.

The First Avenger had it right but that seems more like a bit of an anomaly. Kind of fitting I suppose in the idealized/romanticized notion of heroic America during WWII. While once he wakes up in modern times the rest of the world and movies are governed by shady govt., SHIELD/HYDRA and Iron Man/Tony Stark capitalism run amuck without restraint and with fascism.

Also gently caress a Joss Whedon.

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Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

The right reading for this is the one I'm giving.

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It's not a coincidence that Wonder Woman, the movie that spells out its themes, has been the best received. It's not coincidence that Winter Soldier and Civil War, that have their themes spelled out in extended shot-reverse shot dialogue scenes, are also really well praised, just as Nolan's were. This is going to sound snobbier than I mean it to, but a good chunk of the cinematic audience (or at least, a good chunk of people who theoretically know and write about film) are cinematically illiterate.

Well of course they aren't. A movie that is accessible is always going to be more successful and well-received, and that's important. "Say what you mean" isn't a crime to be avoided.

"Audiences are just too unlearned" is the mother of all cop-outs; teach them, dummy.

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Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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on this note goddamn would logan have been like 10 times better if there wasn't that scene where patrick stewart explains the entire plot to the movie that the movie you're currently watching gets a bulk of inspiration from

how little trust must you have in your audience to put something like that in your film

He doesn't explain it, though. He just watches it with her and reminices about when he first saw it. It's a really sweet scene. I mean, Logan had its problems with exposition (poo poo, we've gotten to the middle of the climatic fight, now is a good time to give the villain's backstory) but that scene was lovely.


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I liked Civil War.

Civil War is fine. Things happen and they are enjoyable to watch. It's just that it says nothing, while trying to say things, and undercutting it's own message. As a sequence of scenes, it's actually pretty hard to fault, but as a story that says anything or leaves any lasting impression...well, it's exactly like all the others.

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Well of course they aren't. A movie that is accessible is always going to be more successful and well-received, and that's important. "Say what you mean" isn't a crime to be avoided.

"Audiences are just too unlearned" is the mother of all cop-outs; teach them, dummy.

"You, a random cinema fan with an audience of zero, teach them" is a loving dumb as poo poo answer, dickhead.

Wow, that is way easier than actually saying anything, I can see why you do it.

It's especially galling since you're the sort of dickhead who keeps shouting down attempts to discuss films in any depth, insisting 'they're just bad, stop talking about them!'

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Dec 24, 2012

Ask me about Briar Rose and Chicken Chaser.


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He probably values his time.

Yeah it's mainly this. BvS looks like a huge slog, but I watched the fight on FFC.

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Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

The right reading for this is the one I'm giving.

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"You, a random cinema fan with an audience of zero, teach them" is a loving dumb as poo poo answer, dickhead.

Wow, that is way easier than actually saying anything, I can see why you do it.

It's especially galling since you're the sort of dickhead who keeps shouting down attempts to discuss films in any depth, insisting 'they're just bad, stop talking about them!'

I wish you were as deep as you think you are, and not simply yelling at trees for liking movies that aren't pretentious.

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E: Like, I was on Lum the Mad around 2000 and you can bet there was discussion of that poo poo back then.

That was a website dedicated to MMO discussion, movie discussion was technically there but not the focus. There is no way I would've called his forums a force in movie opinion shaping.

Also, I'm pretty sure I know who you were back then, you posted under a different name, but you were a better poster then than you are now.

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I wish you were as deep as you think you are, and not simply yelling at trees for liking movies that aren't pretentious.

loving hell, dude, you're calling 'not spelling out themes with dull dialogue' pretentious. That's a thing you're actually doing.

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Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008



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Watch K.Waste's Man of Steel video, y'all.

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This is real good. Recommended viewing!

Edit: Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me of that "What if Man of Steel.. WAS IN COLOR!!!!!!!!" poo poo. Completely forgot about that loving farce. Didn't it turn out the guy who made that dumb video was de-saturating the actual footage even more or something?

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but you were a better poster then than you are now.

Jesus. Let's not get too personal ok guys?

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I Before E
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Jealous?"

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It's not a coincidence that Wonder Woman, the movie that spells out its themes, has been the best received. It's not coincidence that Winter Soldier and Civil War, that have their themes spelled out in extended shot-reverse shot dialogue scenes, are also really well praised, just as Nolan's were. This is going to sound snobbier than I mean it to, but a good chunk of the cinematic audience (or at least, a good chunk of people who theoretically know and write about film) are cinematically illiterate. And the funny thing is, all those films, except Civil War, had already communicated all their themes in other ways. They just also spelled it out.

How much of this is audiences not knowing how to interpret film and how much is the cultural mentality that these films, pop films, aren't deserving of close reading, that all they have to say is what they say in explicit terms? It's the mentality you see when people say "it's not Citizen Kane, it's just a popcorn movie", where some films fit a certain artistic mode and are "allowed" closer inspection, and some don't, and looking into those with a degree of granularity becomes pretentious or "putting too much thought into it". It's not that they're cinematically illiterate, it's that the way film, and art in general, but specifically popular art, is treated in modern consumerist society encourages a passive engagement rather than active interpretation. It's the same phenomenon that leads to people not picking up a book for years after leaving school: they're not unable or even unwilling to read, it's just easier not to.

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How much of this is audiences not knowing how to interpret film and how much is the cultural mentality that these films, pop films, aren't deserving of close reading, that all they have to say is what they say in explicit terms? It's the mentality you see when people say "it's not Citizen Kane, it's just a popcorn movie", where some films fit a certain artistic mode and are "allowed" closer inspection, and some don't, and looking into those with a degree of granularity becomes pretentious or "putting too much thought into it". It's not that they're cinematically illiterate, it's that the way film, and art in general, but specifically popular art, is treated in modern consumerist society encourages a passive engagement rather than active interpretation. It's the same phenomenon that leads to people not picking up a book for years after leaving school: they're not unable or even unwilling to read, it's just easier not to.

You're probably right. It's not that people can't, it's that they've been discouraged from doing so. Which is weird, because a lot of the art that's endured and been examined was really popular and mass consumed back in its day. Shakespeare in particular.

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AlBorlantern Corps
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I have to rewatch Wonder Woman again. I remember liking it a whole lot at the time, then I stewed in it a while and liked it a little less (but still liked it). I was reminded about it on twitter when someone said that Wonder Woman is an important super hero in these times because she believes and loves mankind despite not deserving it and I had to rack my brain to when this was a thing in the film. Aside from the end when she monologues about it, was this ever demonstrated in the film?

Saving that village was more about wanting to help them rather than believing in mankind.

It's not really in the film. Her being an icon of Love is more of a comic book thing and person you read that was probably conflating different versions of the character.

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Watch K.Waste's Man of Steel video, y'all.

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This was great but the spooky voice disguise out of an alien abductee interview turned me off a little bit at first.

It grew on me though, Good Job K. Waste.

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That was a website dedicated to MMO discussion, movie discussion was technically there but not the focus. There is no way I would've called his forums a force in movie opinion shaping.

Also, I'm pretty sure I know who you were back then, you posted under a different name, but you were a better poster then than you are now.

Jokes on you : I’m always bad

And I was a nobody on that site

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Watch K.Waste's Man of Steel video, y'all.

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this is dope as hell and the first thing it makes me want to do is rewatch Hercules because man it's been a while since I've watched Hercules. That's my favorite segment of the video as well, talking about the difference between drawing a direct parallel between Superman and Jesus, and casting Clark as a good Methodist boy from Kansas who just wants to be Christ-like.

I'm aware of the origins of the character, but as a Methodist, let me tell you Superman is like, the ür-Methodist figure, especially the portrayal of him in MoS. John Wesley would love him some Superman.

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this is dope as hell and the first thing it makes me want to do is rewatch Hercules because man it's been a while since I've watched Hercules. That's my favorite segment of the video as well, talking about the difference between drawing a direct parallel between Superman and Jesus, and casting Clark as a good Methodist boy from Kansas who just wants to be Christ-like.

I'm aware of the origins of the character, but as a Methodist, let me tell you Superman is like, the ür-Methodist figure, especially the portrayal of him in MoS. John Wesley would love him some Superman.

It's interesting, because vanessa minillo sex tape Hercules is significantly modeled on Donner's naked in the world Superman, but thematically hues closer to short haired blondes nude Man of Steel. You'll have the parallel between how in Donner's film, Clark goes to the Fortress of Solitude, and after Jor-El's monologue he's instantly transformed into the adult Superman; and in birthday sex girl version Hercules, Herc goes to the Temple of Zeus, and then during "One Last Hope" he's more-or-less instantly transformed into the adult Hercules. The key difference, however, is that in Donner's film, Clark uses his powers without negative consequence, whereas in sex u tube video Hercules, Herc's inability to control his strength is foregrounded as the reason he's socially isolated, and is therefore driven to become Hercules. And this even happens in a cartoon where people only ever get really bad booboos. There's no real reason it needs to exist as motivation except that it invites the spectator to identify with Herc, rather than boys having hot sex through Herc to the symbolic order of the fantasy.

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The MSJ
May 17, 2010



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This was great but the spooky voice disguise out of an alien abductee interview turned me off a little bit at first.

It grew on me though, Good Job K. Waste.

Just pretend Brainiac made the video.

Also the guy directing Shazam is just a hoot on Twitter.
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LesterGroans
Jun 9, 2009

It's funny...

You were so scary at night.


I am kinda hoping that post-Justice League they'll give their directors a litle more freedom.

Luckily, there hasn't been much drama from Aquaman, which has my boys James Wan and Patrick Wilson on it.

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josh04
Oct 19, 2008


There's a consensus about what it means to make a 'good' popular movie that's grown alongside Rotten Tomatoes and the expansion of social media, almost entirely focused around it hitting a particular set of aesthetic markers, and beyond that discussion of plotting in very cynical terms. People talk lots about whether characters had a 'full arc', about whether there were many 'plot holes', and about whether big moments were 'earned'. None of these words mean very much and it's very difficult to actually express what you did and didn't like about a movie using them. It's the language of a script doctor, and necessarily ignores almost every other aspect of filmmaking. There's a scale by which the films are judged intellectually based on picking up a few aesthetic references to an otherwise irrelevant genre, a la Winter Soldier, or else featuring some ornate narrative construction, a la Inception, but beyond that it's gut instinct or CinemaSins as far as the eye can see.

Folks have gotten very used to there being a universal 'online' consensus about objective quality of a film, but where film is actually discussed online (not just here), there are new modes of discussion forming which conflict with this, and are happy to consider non-naturalistic dialogue, dream logic, themes which are not delivered by the main character in a monologue. Which is probably good: surely there's no other time in history when people have commonly reacted with shock and horror to hearing that you liked a $750m grossing, Oscar-winning blockbuster.

(Suicide Squad also has a baptism, btw, and was my reason for asking. Look forward to an upcoming montage of people falling from great heights and/or immersing themselves in large tanks.)

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The key difference, however, is that in Donner's film, Clark uses his powers without negative consequence,

Other than the fact that his existence causes Luthor to try to blow up both coasts instead of just one.

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AFoolAndHisMoney
Aug 13, 2013


Civil War is an extremely cowardly movie that avoids any sense of political discourse by being deliberately vague and focusing on Cap and Iron Man fighting over Bucky instead of an actual ideology.

But then I'd expect nothing less from a sequel to a movie which pretends to talk about the idea of a surveillance state and the US's role in creating that only to chicken out and invoke conspiracy theorist false flag bullshit where literal nazis have invaded the US government and somehow all issues would be solved by taking them out rather than the reality that such things are systemically entrenched in the nation and its politics.

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Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000



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I have to rewatch Wonder Woman again. I remember liking it a whole lot at the time, then I stewed in it a while and liked it a little less (but still liked it). I was reminded about it on twitter when someone said that Wonder Woman is an important super hero in these times because she believes and loves mankind despite not deserving it and I had to rack my brain to when this was a thing in the film. Aside from the end when she monologues about it, was this ever demonstrated in the film?

Saving that village was more about wanting to help them rather than believing in mankind.
I’ve mentioned it before but this is partially because the original ending of WW had her walking away from mankind like she said in BvS. However, the ending of WW was rewritten after the reception of BvS.

Also, yeah, liberating the village was about rescuing the enslaved women and children. That ties into the Amazon mythos of them being enslaved by mankind and also Diana’s desire to protect the innocent (she makes a big deal about women and children again in her scene with Steve on the guard tower at the end when she talks about mankind building “weapons that kill people they can’t even see”).

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Sep 14, 2007

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Civil War is an extremely cowardly movie that avoids any sense of political discourse by being deliberately vague and focusing on Cap and Iron Man fighting over Bucky instead of an actual ideology.

But then I'd expect nothing less from a sequel to a movie which pretends to talk about the idea of a surveillance state and the US's role in creating that only to chicken out and invoke conspiracy theorist false flag bullshit where literal nazis have invaded the US government and somehow all issues would be solved by taking them out rather than the reality that such things are systemically entrenched in the nation and its politics.

It's really funny that people just skip talking about what actually happens in Civil War because it's totally insane, yet ultimately doesn't matter a drat lick.

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Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

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Civil War is fine. Things happen and they are enjoyable to watch. It's just that it says nothing, while trying to say things, and undercutting it's own message. As a sequence of scenes, it's actually pretty hard to fault, but as a story that says anything or leaves any lasting impression...well, it's exactly like all the others.

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It's really funny that people just skip talking about what actually happens in Civil War because it's totally insane, yet ultimately doesn't matter a drat lick.
I agree completely. gently caress, i need sex today Age of Ultron is a smarter movie than Civil War, it's just garbled as gently caress because it's like Joss Whedon's Zack Snyder Superhero Movie.

I wonder if in a few years, some of these films will be reviled like the Star Wars prequels, and people will pop up to insist that they were always bad. I suppose that would have to hinge on there being another major shift in the media landscape.

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Civil War is an extremely cowardly movie that avoids any sense of political discourse by being deliberately vague and focusing on Cap and Iron Man fighting over Bucky instead of an actual ideology.

But then I'd expect nothing less from a sequel to a movie which pretends to talk about the idea of a surveillance state and the US's role in creating that only to chicken out and invoke conspiracy theorist false flag bullshit where literal nazis have invaded the US government and somehow all issues would be solved by taking them out rather than the reality that such things are systemically entrenched in the nation and its politics.

i remember watching winter soldier, and as soon as nick fury took cap down to see their flying death fortresses all i could think about was poo poo like rex 84, cointelpro, northwoods, five eyes/prism etc. and then when the hydra reveal went down it just brought to mind hosed-up poo poo like operation paperclip. once everything else is said and done, there's that scene with black widow addressing congress or some poo poo, and she basically leaves as they create a replacement intelligence apparatus. the characters avert disaster sure, but in the end they don't really solve anything and end up creating more problems for themselves down the road.

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It's really funny that people just skip talking about what actually happens in Civil War because it's totally insane, yet ultimately doesn't matter a drat lick.

The next movie opens with activist hackers leaking the fact that Stark and his crew violated the Sokovia Accords literally days after pushing for their signing, causing a major public scandal and the deaths of [squinting at a sheaf of documents] 0.3 people

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Those activist hackers cost lives man.

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Civil War is an extremely cowardly movie that avoids any sense of political discourse by being deliberately vague and focusing on Cap and Iron Man fighting over Bucky instead of an actual ideology.

But then I'd expect nothing less from a sequel to a movie which pretends to talk about the idea of a surveillance state and the US's role in creating that only to chicken out and invoke conspiracy theorist false flag bullshit where literal nazis have invaded the US government and somehow all issues would be solved by taking them out rather than the reality that such things are systemically entrenched in the nation and its politics.

Marvel in general insinuates superheroes and supervillains into everything without anything really being different. Audiences might be wowed by the legend of Captain America for instance, if the Marvel World War II had ended earlier or if he had captured Hitler. But everything happens the same way as it did in our history. The heroes and villains only cancel each other out. Like OK, SHIELD was destroyed. Guess the CIA and FBI and NSA will keep on truckin', though.

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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Marvel's cinematic foundation is that society stays the same even if you introduce free energy and aliens and gods from other dimensions and self-aware self-directed AI robots. Only the weapons get potentially deadlier. This is not considered to be a "plot hole" and things that happen in one movie carry over to other movies. Honest.

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AlBorlantern Corps
Mar 4, 2017

In brightest day,
In darkest dim,
No tool man shall I broker him,
Let those who shout 'More Power' grim
Heed my call, I don't think so Tim


There should be a dog Captain America and it turns out secretly he was a member of HYDRANT.

He's also a Dalmatian.

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There should be a dog Captain America and it turns out secretly he was a member of HYDRANT.

He's also a Dalmatian.

Disney already owns cruella deville too

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