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josh04
Oct 19, 2008


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My next question would be to then ask how do we ascertain this has happened? Personally, while I might not have a particularly high opinion on Snyder's film making abilities, my sense talking to people in the real world is that the animus against him is a perception wholly created from endless discussion of not particularly interesting films online in forums like SA, which makes it even more puzzling to see posters in this thread creating out of whole cloth an argument painting everyone else out there in the world in the pocket of Big Anti-Snyder. These movies aren't that important, no one cares that much except a small percentage of the geekish population, this is all just different degrees of blockbuster schlock.

Blockbusters are defined by their mass popularity. That's what makes them interesting, and one of the reasons we're talking endlessly about Civil War and Batman V Superman and not, y'know, S04E05 of CW's 'The Flash'.

quote:

This myopism and vague assertions of the wanting characteristics and supposed fallibility of the greater public smacks me of some of the writings found in the Temperance movement, or for a more filmic reference, some of the arguments leading into the Hay Codes. Its presumptious and inevitably places the person raising as an untouchable arbiter of what is truly good.

What's the alternative? Is it always inappropriate to think the general public are wrong about something? It's absolutely presumptuous, but why does that matter? Like, you can have an intellectual movement without it being a moral panic. It wasn't William Hayes' solid, well-reasoned shitposts on an internet forum that got the Hayes code adopted.

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There's verifiable research that the average "conservative" is an even bigger piece of poo poo now than they were in the 80s and 90s. Their beliefs have changed in response to Fox News and Facebook, which lets these chuds get together and reinforce each other's worse tendencies.

I think my position is getting misconstrued a little bit. People aren't any different. They are the same they've always been, and that is reacting to their environment. Online discussion is now largely dominated by nerds calling each other mentally ill for not agreeing with critical consensus and Youtube videos from know-nothing dipshits who spend 2 hours braying about "plot holes", so that's the way the discourse is being shaped and that's how people talk about movies. The loving CinemaSins way. Back in the 80s your only outlet was your personal friends (who would razz your poo poo if you said something stupid) or writing a letter to the editor, which was filtered out based on how constructive and interesting it was. Fanzines did not have near the level of presence as Twitter or Reddit.

I mean the level of insane Trek fandom that got you weird looks in the 80s is now the norm for every single franchise. That's the kind of thing I'm observing.

Edit: like Timby's is the perfect example, I liked Star Trek and saw all the movies in the theater and I never heard about any of that. Those people were freaks. Now Vox and Verge and StarTrekFan or whatever would run that as a major story on their site.

I get what you're saying feel in general online tone and discourse is leaking into things. It's becoming more okay to be hyperbolic and reinforce such behavior.

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I think the instantaneous speed for sure is an exacerbating factor, if anything. But consensus opinion has always been a plague.

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Lobok
Jul 13, 2006



I've lost track of what the original argument was but in a discussion about how nerd/pop culture discourse has changed I think you have to factor in how conventions have changed. A comic con used to just be a single banquet hall room where you could maybe score some sweet old issues you'd like to read (watch out for dealers overcharging for reprints!). Probably don't have to describe to anybody what they've become now but part of what they are is a huge effort on the part of media conglomerates to have the nerds be tastemakers and influencers for months or even years in advance. The nerd opinion has been specifically catered to and massively amplified.

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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Yeah back in the 80s you got your rear end kicked for being a nerd. Like I was talking comics with a friend in HS and later in class a regular guy told me "you loving nerd, you talk about those comic book people like they're real" with nothing but pure contempt and got a big laugh from the class. Flash forward 25 years, my wife works in a High School and she got her entire class pumped for discussing genetic mutation by using the X-Men.

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Yeah back in the 80s you got your rear end kicked for being a nerd. Like I was talking comics with a friend in HS and later in class a regular guy told me "you loving nerd, you talk about those comic book people like they're real" with nothing but pure contempt and got a big laugh from the class. Flash forward 25 years, my wife works in a High School and she got her entire class pumped for discussing genetic mutation by using the X-Men.

Thing is though, the comic books themselves have barely become more popular. Possibly less popular. It's more like being really into Fantasy Football in the 80's, people are a little bemused but mostly nonplussed to find out you're engaged with what is supplementary material to the thing which has mainstream popularity. It's a cultural periphery to the movies.

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Pairing "comic book fans and jaded critics" with shots of Eisenlex and Batfleck

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Thing is though, the comic books themselves have barely become more popular. Possibly less popular. It's more like being really into Fantasy Football in the 80's, people are a little bemused but mostly nonplussed to find out you're engaged with what is supplementary material to the thing which has mainstream popularity. It's a cultural periphery to the movies.

They are less popular, the comic book industry is absolutely on its rear end right now and has been for a good two decades. The business is "cyclical" but them highs aren't that high.

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If anyone really wants to know what the Internet thought about Phantom Menace, lesbians having sex live.

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my sense talking to people in the real world is that the animus against him is a perception wholly created from endless discussion of not particularly interesting films online in forums like SA
EDIT: Oops, initially misread this. Still, I think taking this dismissive stance is basically a smug and dishonest way to sneak in a criticism of the movie: "hmm actually no, the haters aren't haters because these movies just us sex offenders list aren't important enough for anyone to care about." You're trying to take a stance against arrogant criticism but then you're just loftily deciding that blockbusters aren't serious movies worthy of criticism.

Snyder does, in fact, get a lot of vitriol on internet discussions, and it's pretty ridiculous to say the reason for that is CD shoving discussion about him down people's throat.

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"More importantly, the not quite silence is used to reward the character. He murders someone and gets a hug for it."

I'm gonna have to check out that Every Frame a Painting episode because because wow that's saying a whole lot more about them than the movie

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"More importantly, the not quite silence is used to reward the character. He murders someone and gets a hug for it."

I'm gonna have to check out that Every Frame a Painting episode because because wow that's saying a whole lot more about them than the movie

Man of Steel has such a weird effect on a lot of normally level headed people. It's as if an entirely different movie was put in their projectors.

Coincidentally it was the Half in the Bag review that first started to shake me off of RLM. Then they trashed Chappie, which I almost took their word for until my girlfriend convinced me to see it.

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I am kinda hoping that post-Justice League they'll give their directors a litle more freedom.

Luckily, there hasn't been much drama from Aquaman, which has my boys James Wan and Patrick Wilson on it.

It's spectaular how little they've learned. Arguments about exposition aside, Wonder Woman also had the least reshoot drama. I don't even remember if it had any. The others all either had word of it very close to release, or it was painfully obvious in the film itself. A film that hasn't been hosed with might not be perfect, but it'll be coherent. And audiences notice that poo poo.

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Civil War is hilarious in retrospect because it's got the exact same problem as Star Trek III: The Search for Spock--all of its so-called drama requires the characters to act like complete morons, and the only sequences that people remember (the airport fight in Civil War, stealing the Enterprise / destroying the Enterprise in Trek) had the least input from the directors and were driven by the effects teams.

The Airport sequence is really weird, because it's theoretically a fight, but with no objectives for either party that actually affect any of the fights. Theoretically, Cap and TWS are trying to leave, and the others are trying to stop them. Instead of fighting their way towards the plane, the majority of elaborate sequence is them pairing off, exchanging a few hits that do no damage, having some quips, and then finding a new dance partner. I hate using fan service as a criticism (after all, if a movie isn't made to be enjoyed, why does it exist?) but it seemed to be rushing through as many pairings as possible. Action is story, and story is action, and the story of Civil War's big action set piece is 'let's spar for a bit until we remember what the plot is'

Then there's the fairly arbitrary way War Machine is injured. It ends up feeling like a PSA. 'sure, violence and wanton destruction are fun, but people can get hurt under extremely specific circumstances'

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Marvel's cinematic foundation is that society stays the same even if you introduce free energy and aliens and gods from other dimensions and self-aware self-directed AI robots. Only the weapons get potentially deadlier. This is not considered to be a "plot hole" and things that happen in one movie carry over to other movies. Honest.

It's, in a sense, like the James Bond movies, where narrowly averted nuclear war or giant space stations are forgotten by the next movie. Shared Universe!

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I thought Civil War did a pretty good job setting up the "whose side are you on" part and showing how both sides had legitimate concerns and motivations. It wasn't a masterpiece but I enjoyed it well enough.

You're right, Cap's motivation of wanting his friend who spent decades as a super assassin to face no consequences or even precautions was very clear, as was Stark's motivation of wanting everyone else to follow rules because he keeps loving up, even as he continuously shirks them through the film.


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You're not a grand guardian of cinematic wisdom. People like these movies because they responded to those movies solid narrative structure and its ability to give them something they actually like watching.

I didn't claim to be. I noted that 'show don't tell' is an idea roughly as old as cinema and 'monologue the themes' is boring as gently caress. If this is cinematic wisdom to you, I'm glad to share it.

And loving lol at the idea of people responding to Age of Ultron's solid narrative structure.

quote:

But brew and mutter about the unwashed masses not getting it, I'm over here, being a cinema socialist dammit.

You're being a cinema socialist by engaging with the bland pap of the largest media conglomerate in the planet's history, one that aims to own every popular idea and profit off of it forever. I don't think you know what words mean.

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Man of Steel has such a weird effect on a lot of normally level headed people. It's as if an entirely different movie was put in their projectors.

Coincidentally it was the Half in the Bag review that first started to shake me off of RLM. Then they trashed Chappie, which I almost took their word for until my girlfriend convinced me to see it.

Chappie is fuckin' dope. It's worth saying a lot of times.

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Man of Steel has such a weird effect on a lot of normally level headed people. It's as if an entirely different movie was put in their projectors.

Coincidentally it was the Half in the Bag review that first started to shake me off of RLM. Then they trashed Chappie, which I almost took their word for until my girlfriend convinced me to see it.

Well at least the Every Frame a Painting video doesn't contend he fails to save the family

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Well at least the Every Frame a Painting video doesn't contend he fails to save the family

That guy's moronic blather was the inciting event that made me realize just how loving garbage modern movie criticism is. Tens of thousand of followers listening to a "critic" who is incapable of understanding perfectly straightforward visual narrative.

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That guy's moronic blather was the inciting event that made me realize just how loving garbage modern movie criticism is. Tens of thousand of followers listening to a "critic" who is incapable of understanding perfectly straightforward visual narrative.

Every Frame is a Paint or the other guy? Who is the other guy? I want to laugh at him.

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Just finished watching this, it's good poo poo. Glad K. Waste came around on colour in Man of Steel, it's too good looking for the B&W treatment imo.

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It's spectaular how little they've learned. Arguments about exposition aside, Wonder Woman also had the least reshoot drama. I don't even remember if it had any. The others all either had word of it very close to release, or it was painfully obvious in the film itself. A film that hasn't been hosed with might not be perfect, but it'll be coherent. And audiences notice that poo poo.


The Airport sequence is really weird, because it's theoretically a fight, but with no objectives for either party that actually affect any of the fights. Theoretically, Cap and TWS are trying to leave, and the others are trying to stop them. Instead of fighting their way towards the plane, the majority of elaborate sequence is them pairing off, exchanging a few hits that do no damage, having some quips, and then finding a new dance partner. I hate using fan service as a criticism (after all, if a movie isn't made to be enjoyed, why does it exist?) but it seemed to be rushing through as many pairings as possible. Action is story, and story is action, and the story of Civil War's big action set piece is 'let's spar for a bit until we remember what the plot is'

Then there's the fairly arbitrary way War Machine is injured. It ends up feeling like a PSA. 'sure, violence and wanton destruction are fun, but people can get hurt under extremely specific circumstances'


It's, in a sense, like the James Bond movies, where narrowly averted nuclear war or giant space stations are forgotten by the next movie. Shared Universe!


You're right, Cap's motivation of wanting his friend who spent decades as a super assassin to face no consequences or even precautions was very clear, as was Stark's motivation of wanting everyone else to follow rules because he keeps loving up, even as he continuously shirks them through the film.


I didn't claim to be. I noted that 'show don't tell' is an idea roughly as old as cinema and 'monologue the themes' is boring as gently caress. If this is cinematic wisdom to you, I'm glad to share it.

And loving lol at the idea of people responding to Age of Ultron's solid narrative structure.


You're being a cinema socialist by engaging with the bland pap of the largest media conglomerate in the planet's history, one that aims to own every popular idea and profit off of it forever. I don't think you know what words mean.


Chappie is fuckin' dope. It's worth saying a lot of times.

Chappie might be the best film of the decade.

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I'll put a hand in for Noah, Noah is exceptionally loving good.

It really is. I loved that movie and it was very well done. The sequences of creation were great as were the stories of the fallen angels.

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Man of Steel has such a weird effect on a lot of normally level headed people. It's as if an entirely different movie was put in their projectors.

Coincidentally it was the Half in the Bag review that first started to shake me off of RLM. Then they trashed Chappie, which I almost took their word for until my girlfriend convinced me to see it.

Hah, that was the same HiTB that put me off RLM(combined with one other I think, can't recall exactly which one). I still like their Best of the Worst content though, it's fun to see snippets of crazy movies from the VHS era.

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I'll put a hand in for Noah, Noah is exceptionally loving good.

Noah is great.

Edit: gonna re-recommend K. Waste's new Man of Steel video, it rocks. Get in on the ground floor of this good poo poo

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Hah, that was the same HiTB that put me off RLM(combined with one other I think, can't recall exactly which one). I still like their Best of the Worst content though, it's fun to see snippets of crazy movies from the VHS era.

Same. It wasn't their dislike of the film - whatever different tastes - but their insistence that comic book films sex porno movie free need to be silly and fun because the source material is silly and fun is what broke me on their Half in the Bag videos. I still watch all of them save the comic book ones, but I don't put much weight in their opinions on films like I used to up to that point.

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“Superhero stories must be inherently optimistic” is a very surprisingly common take. It’s also a good way to tell whether to stop listening to someone’s opinions.

Seriously. Dumb motherfuckers gonna sit there and act like Watchmen doesn’t exist.

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I had a theory that all the people who say "it's always been like this" are young kids whose memories begin sometime in the late 90s but STAC Goat was alive in the 80s and as near as I can tell subscribes to a version of that theory as well so I just don't know what to think.

I guess there's this real human need to convince yourself you're living at the end of history and things aren't actually substantially changing - just finding new modes of expression or w/e. I don't know. Very confusing to me, since IMO the way we talk about movies and criticism/analysis of them has changed so radically over the last decade.

Not really.

I'm pretty old, especially by SA standards, and I went to art school in the late 80's. We talked about films and paintings in much the same way. Honestly, the biggest difference is just how amplified it is now and how noisy everything gets when everyone has a voice and are basically all speaking at the same time.

Also, it's obviously easier now to isolate scenes and do screen grabs and poo poo when before you were lucky if you had a VCR tape or one you could borrow. Things are changing, for sure, but most of it has to with speed and the ease of access and reference.

I think the fundamental arguments are the same. I remember when Michael Keaton was announced as Batman and nerds flipped their poo poo. When Ledger was first revealed the arguments against him were quite similar. That's just one example.

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Man of Steel free 3d girl sex is fairly optimistic as far I'm concerned.

Well that's the thing: the discourse about superhero films is wedged in this false dichotomy between what is perceived as optimistic and what is perceived as cynical, rather that what optimism and cynicism actually entail ideologically.

So, for example, when people describe tube sex videos porn Man of Steel as cynical, they are not in fact referring to anywhere in the narrative where the characters who aren't bad guys are portrayed as being purely motivated by self-interest. Now, a more fanatical critic of celebrity hardcore sex scenes Man of Steel might reach that conclusion, as many have (ex: 'Superman doesn't smile,' 'Superman acts like he doesn't care'). The kicker is that this is actual cynicism being espoused by the spectator, in response to the superficial content that makes up the film's symbolic order but does not conform to their prejudices. lesbians making out naked Man of Steel is cynical because sad things happen, because Superman is just a name that they gave some fallible and impotent dude, because it plays out like an apocalyptic alien invasion movie and not like wish-fulfillment. The accusation of cynicism then graduates to the filmmakers and rights-holders: 'They don't care about Superman, they hate the character, they think he's dumb, they're trying to make him more like Batman because all they care about is money.'

What is occurring is actually a very natural and spontaneous psychological reaction to the symbolic order of a film. In order to identify with the protagonist, the spectator first needs to identify with the symbolic order of the film. It has nothing to do with what objectively occurs in the film. We see this apocalyptic sci-fi scenario with this troubled and fallible protagonist, and come to the conclusion that the redemption and self-sacrifice are irrelevant. The accusation of cynicism is actually an identification nakid women having sex with cynicism.

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There's verifiable research that the average "conservative" is an even bigger piece of poo poo now than they were in the 80s and 90s. Their beliefs have changed in response to Fox News and Facebook, which lets these chuds get together and reinforce each other's worse tendencies.
To be fair...uh, to the Internet I guess...that's not media at large. There was a nikki benz lesbian sex girls next door nude built up around radicalizing conservatives over decades, and it's older than the Internet.

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A comic con used to just be a single banquet hall room where you could maybe score some sweet old issues you'd like to read (watch out for dealers overcharging for reprints!). Probably don't have to describe to anybody what they've become now but part of what they are is a huge effort on the part of media conglomerates to have the nerds be tastemakers and influencers for months or even years in advance.
And in turn, we have this concept of "Internet 1.0" which basically means "the Internet before a small handful of huge companies learned how to monetize and surveill it."

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They are less popular, the comic book industry is absolutely on its rear end right now and has been for a good two decades. The business is "cyclical" but them highs aren't that high.
Every time I dip my toes back into mainstream comics, I get the impression that the Big Two just don't know how to market to people who aren't older, male, diehard fans.

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Every time I dip my toes back into mainstream comics, I get the impression that the Big Two just don't know how to market to people who aren't older, male, diehard fans.

Probably because older, male, diehard fans are the people in charge.

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Let's take a moment to pay tribute to the little guys, specifically this kid having to pull off a face of both shame and pity, and knocking it out of the park.

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Probably because older, male, diehard fans are the people in charge.
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I watched BvS in spite of what I said and it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. It was too long, lots of it made no sense, and the quality of writing varied wildly from scene to scene and character to character, but it had good parts. One thing that really surprised me is how people said Superman wasn't moral there's a part right before the final boss where a guy who just tried to burn Superman's mom alive created a monster specifically to kill Superman, and the monster's about to kill him instead, and without a moment's hesitation Superman flies in front of the punch and saves Lex. That's who Superman's supposed to be.

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I watched BvS in spite of what I said and it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. It was too long, lots of it made no sense, and the quality of writing varied wildly from scene to scene and character to character, but it had good parts. One thing that really surprised me is how people said Superman wasn't moral there's a part right before the final boss where a guy who just tried to burn Superman's mom alive created a monster specifically to kill Superman, and the monster's about to kill him instead, and without a moment's hesitation Superman flies in front of the punch and saves Lex. That's who Superman's supposed to be.

Which cut did you watch?

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