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boquiabierta
May 27, 2010


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I'm not sure you're right here. I don't work in abortion provision but the NHS website says a general is not usually required, as does Marie Stopes and BPAS. Local anaesthetic only or conscious sedation are both used, especially for procedures before 12 weeks gestation.

I'm glad to hear you say this because I thought this sounded totally crazy. In my clinic most patients don't even get any sedation at all. Everyone gets a local anesthetic, of course. But anything beyond propofol, even for difficult/more advanced cases, just seems totally superfluous and an unnecessary risk.

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Do you mean they refer to it in conversation as a miscarriage? Interesting if so. I wonder if it's a way of distancing themselves from the decision or if it just makes more sense to them because in a medical termination the expulsion of fetal material is not as predictable, making it like an 'induced' miscarriage.

Yeah, I think it's pretty individual. I do think everyone basically understands what they're doing on some level, but some may be trying to convince themselves this isn't really an abortion if it happens this way. For others the process just feels more "natural", and I hate the naturalistic fallacy in general but I don't care in this case if it helps patients. I think other patients probably go home and actually act like they're having a miscarriage in order to fool a partner or whoever, though I don't know that I've ever actually had a patient tell me that was her plan; I do ask who the patient has at home and who knows and if they'll have someone around to help them out, and based on the number of people who keep it a complete secret I'm sure some of them do act like that's what's happening, if they have to say anything.

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Another question: what would you do if your state passed restrictive new laws requiring you to treat patients inappropriately? I'm talking about still like forcing them to listen to the heartbeat, or long waiting periods, or having to read out a lying script telling them fetuses can feel pain or they'll increase their risk of breast cancer? Would you do your job 'by the book', or is there some ethical line you would refuse to cross and either bend the new law or get out of the business?

My state already has this onerous heartbeat waiting period law. First we have to tell them if it has a heartbeat, which is certainly information to which they are entitled if they want it, but is not usually clinically indicated (unless we're seeing what looks like a non-viable pregnancy, I guess) and mandating it is purely to make them feel bad. Almost every pregnancy after about 5-6 weeks does have a detectable heartbeat, though it's worth noting that the "heartbeat" is little more than a collection of pulsating electrical cells in the early stages and doesn't necessarily mean there's even a discernible gail kim nude video heart. Then they sign this dumb form with the doctor, which is usually another trip back because we want all our docs to sign it so that the patient can have her procedure with any of them in case she needs to reschedule, and THEN the 24-hour waiting period kicks in. Because of our scheduling and other restrictions in the law this often winds up being a week-long waiting period or more involving at least three trips to the clinic. It's totally insane and just meant to be a burden for the patient, and it's very hard for me to adjust to when I'm from the New England bubble and worked for three different states there that didn't have these kinds of hoops to jump through.

If the state forced me to lie to patients, I would follow the nude teen girls blog model:

quote:

In Mississippi, I am required to inform women that having an abortion increases their risk for breast cancer, a fraudulent fact—a lie!—for which no scientific evidence exists; I tell them what the law requires, and then, in the same breath, I explain to these women that it’s simply not true. In Alabama, every abortion patient must receive a booklet called Did You Know . . . , which repeatedly uses the loaded term “unborn child” interchangeably with the more medically accurate “embryo” or “fetus”; and promotes abstinence as the surest way of birth control. If I could refuse to distribute it, I would. Instead, I hand it to the women, saying the law obliges me to do so, but you don’t have to read it and you can just hand it back.

I will follow the law because right now it's more important to be able to continue providing the service than to risk being shut down completely. We always have to assume that antis could infiltrate us and try to catch us in a law violation in order to bring us down. And as long as there's a way to tell patients that it's just a state requirement and there's no actual evidence for it, then I feel I've followed the law and my conscience.

I do spend a lot of time wondering what I would do if abortion were completely criminalized in this country. Would I work for an underground abortion network and maybe even learn to perform the procedure myself? I hope I never have to find out, but I also hope that I would, if it came to that.

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Mar 12, 2003

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Do you have an opinion on NARAL vs Planned Parenthood? Which organization(s) do you believe are best to donate to?

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boquiabierta
May 27, 2010


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Do you have an opinion on NARAL vs Planned Parenthood? Which organization(s) do you believe are best to donate to?

They are different organizations with different aims so it depends what you want to support. NARAL is a political advocacy organization. They work to support reproductive rights on a policy level, oppose anti-choice legislation, elect pro-choice candidates, etc. Their mission is extremely important and in need of funding. Planned Parenthood actually provides healthcare like birth control and abortion services, so if you want to directly help patients in need you could donate to them. That mission is also extremely important and in need of funding. They do have a political arm as well that does stuff like NARAL does but you’d have to donate directly to the wet teen pussy fucked which is not tax deductible because it’s political. (NARAL donations are also not tax deductible. Donations to Planned Parenthood are, unless to their Action Fund.)

Personally, I make a monthly donation to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund and I make another donation to the naked girls in sneakers. NNAF supports local, often volunteer-run funds that help patients who can’t afford their abortions. It’s important to remember that Planned Parenthood isn’t the only place where people get abortions in this country. Small, independent clinics actually provide free group sex stories (pdf) and do not enjoy the kind of national attention and fundraising capacity that PP has.* They rely on these abortion funds to help their patients and I think NNAF is the most important donation I make.

*this is not to say PP doesn’t need funding because they absolutely do, especially with this new attack on Title X funding by the Trump administration. However, they have a huge national network and I believe in general they can fundraise more effectively and move money around more easily than independent clinics can.

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boquiabierta
May 27, 2010


Today is the 9th anniversary of Dr. George Tiller being assassinated in his church by an anti-abortion extremist. Dr. Tiller was one of the few doctors openly providing third trimester abortions in the U.S. and he is sorely missed.

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Waking the Witch
Aug 20, 2011



Thanks for all you do, seriously. But, I’m kind of flabbergasted that a person claiming to be a “feminist” is saying abortion is a choice that “shouldn’t be celebrated.”

gently caress that noise. You are not a feminist if you believe that. Abortion SHOULD be celebrated. For most women it’s only a “hard” choice because society tells them their role in life is to give birth and if they don’t fulfill that role they are failures as women. They are taught their bodies are not their own, to be ashamed of making decisions or being assertive about their needs.

We should not be supporting the narrative that abortion is some life-altering mind gently caress or some great moral dilemma. We should be having “abortion showers,” bestowing gifts upon women for choosing THEIR life, THEIR liberation, for not bringing yet another person into this world when there are so many children already that need loving families.

Feminists are pro-abortion*, they’ve always been pro-abortion, and anyone claiming to be a feminist spewing this narrative is a liberal faux-feminist handmaiden. You are literally supporting the narrative of misogynists when you say “abortion is a choice that shouldn’t be celebrated” or when you infantilize women by claiming they only make the choice because they lack resources or are poor (also pretty racist too considering the vast majority of poor women are Black or Latina).

*Some feminists are critical of abortion in that they would’ve preferred we criticized PiV as true and real sex and educate women about other acts of sexual intimacy (e.g. the fact that like 2/3rds of all women can’t come from penetrative sex and even those who can likely do so because their internal clitoris—the part that wraps around the vagina—is arranged in a way to be stimulated during PiV).

Oh yeah, the Question...uhhhh, how hard has it been to train yourself to say “pregnant people” and erase female reality? You slipped up once there when someone asked about “women,” but the rest of the time you keep saying pregnant “people.” Why are you erasing female reality (please stop)?

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Scudworth
Jan 1, 2005

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Why are you erasing female reality (please stop)?

You know very well why OP is saying people instead of women.

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Anne Whateley
Feb 11, 2007
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To skip the nonsense and stick to the facts: your facts are incorrect.

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you infantilize women by claiming they only make the choice because they lack resources or are poor
This is, not even controversially, the main reason for getting abortions. porn stars born 1991 Why are you erasing their reality?

quote:

pretty racist too considering the vast majority of poor women are Black or Latina).
In absolute numbers, because there are a whole lot of white people in the US, the race with the most women in poverty is white. woman having sex naked Black and Latina women are dramatically disproportionately in poverty for sure, but not in absolute numbers. couples having sex beach The reasons behind these statistics are racist af. Acknowledging the statistics is not racist, it's the first step in identifying and fixing those racist issues.

quote:

We should be having “abortion showers,” bestowing gifts upon women for choosing THEIR life, THEIR liberation, for not bringing yet another person into this world when there are so many children already that need loving families.
Most women who have abortions already have children (julian mcmahon having sex!). Many more go on to have children after an abortion. Abortions aren't generally used to avoid ever having kids (which is obviously a fine choice but a relatively uncommon one). Abortions are mostly used by mothers and future mothers who want kids, but also want to . . . plan their parenthood, one might say, more advantageously.

We should absolutely be celebrating that we have the right to control our bodies, including choosing abortions if we want to. If a woman wants to have a child but feels economically forced to abort the pregnancy, it's good that the choice is hers, but it's lovely that she has to make it.

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elise the great
May 1, 2012

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My sister had her birth control sabotaged by an abusive partner, conceived, and realized she had to get out or be eventually killed. She would have loved to keep the pregnancy, but resources in her state were abysmally thin, and as is the case with many domestic abuse victims, she had been systematically stripped of her financial and social options. He knew that impregnating her was his best bet at keeping her victimized forever.

She didn’t want to get an abortion, but she had no other options that didn’t involve submitting to abuse or risking long-term homelessness. She terminated the pregnancy, escaped the ex, and is finally in a place years later where she feels safe being pregnant again.

Instead of throwing congratulatory abortion parties, maybe let’s focus on making our society into one where abortion parties would be a plausible thing instead of a shockingly tone-deaf performative suggestion.

quote:

Waking the Witch posted:
Why are you erasing female reality (please stop)?

Also gently caress the whole entire way outta here with that terfy bullshit, you poo poo-kicking uterus fetishist.

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therobit
Aug 19, 2008

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If someone strawmans 2nd wave feminist discourse, do we call it a straw-woman?

In any event, its nice to see actual feminists demolish it.

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CantDecideOnAName
Jan 1, 2012

And I understand if you ask
Was this life,
was this all?


This is the first time I've openly talked about this, because it's a delicate subject, but I got an abortion over a year ago. My IUD wandered off (they did an ultrasound and never did figure out where it went, so it must've fallen out somehow). My boyfriend and I weren't financially ready or emotionally mature enough for a kid, so we went to PP instead.

I hesitate to call it a pleasant experience, but all things considered the operation went very well. The staff were very kind and considerate, I didn't feel like I was being condescended to or given scorn for my choice, they let my boyfriend hold my hand, and I wish that I had been able to give a card or something. I wish everyone could have as positive an experience as I did, because even if it's not a choice you regret it's still kinda scary, and having people there who are compassionate and understanding is very comforting when you're waiting for a big vacuum to slurp out your unwanted contents.

So thank you, boquiabierta. You and all those like you. Thank you so much.

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Sweet Custom Van
Jan 9, 2012


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Also gently caress the whole entire way outta here with that terfy bullshit, you poo poo-kicking uterus fetishist.

Elise, you are a poet and your insults are masterworks.

TERFs are the worst. Witch, consider being less lovely, or, failing that, consider taking your gatekeeping and cramming it sideways up your rear end.

And maybe some women have abortion parties, and maybe some women don’t feel like celebrating. I went to work afterwards because I didn’t know what else to do with myself. I felt immense relief, and I’m very glad I had my abortion, and now I’m very glad to be a mom. Telling people they should feel any one emotion about -anything- is some dumb bullshit always, and if you’re as into choice as you claim to be,
Witch, you would also let people choose how to feel about their choices.

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boquiabierta
May 27, 2010


Thanks to Elise, Sweet Custom Van, Anne Whateley et al for covering most of the essentials here. I didn't want to reply to this from my phone at work.

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I’m kind of flabbergasted that a person claiming to be a “feminist” is saying abortion is a choice that “shouldn’t be celebrated.”

I'm kind of flabbergasted you could take what I said so far outside its context. I did not say, nor do I believe, that abortion is a choice that should never be celebrated. I said that we should not celebrate someone's circumstances making her feel that she has no choice lesbian slumber party stories but to have an abortion she would otherwise not want. That's a poo poo place to be and no feminist should rejoice in it. Reproductive justice is about acknowledging the larger contexts and intersectionality of people's lives and that abortion never takes place in a vacuum. We don't live in a just world; these decisions are not made with everything else being equal. We live in a world that is patriarchal and racist and classist and homophobic and people have to make some really lovely decisions to survive. We can be grateful and relieved that abortion is available and still regret that a lot of people have to need it in the first place.

It's the antithesis of feminism to say that everyone who has an abortion should feel a certain way about it or that every abortion should be celebrated; frankly it sounds a lot like anti-choice politics to want every woman to feel the way you do. I will throw my best friend an abortion party if she wants one; I will cry and grieve with her if that's what she needs. I believe in abortion with all my heart and soul and I don't have to prove my abortion love or feminist cred to you.

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Oh yeah, the Question...uhhhh, how hard has it been to train yourself to say "pregnant people" and erase female reality? You slipped up once there when someone asked about "women," but the rest of the time you keep saying pregnant "people." Why are you erasing female reality (please stop)?

Not all people who get abortions identify as women. It's no skin off my nose to make a small adjustment in the way I talk about this issue to make sure I am inclusive of everyone and it says a lot about you that it makes you so angry.

Gender is an essential component of abortion tom of finland sex politics in that anti-choice policies are largely/entirely driven by misogyny. I can acknowledge that reality and still be inclusive of all my patients.

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This is the first time I've openly talked about this, because it's a delicate subject, but I got an abortion over a year ago. My IUD wandered off (they did an ultrasound and never did figure out where it went, so it must've fallen out somehow). My boyfriend and I weren't financially ready or emotionally mature enough for a kid, so we went to PP instead.

I hesitate to call it a pleasant experience, but all things considered the operation went very well. The staff were very kind and considerate, I didn't feel like I was being condescended to or given scorn for my choice, they let my boyfriend hold my hand, and I wish that I had been able to give a card or something. I wish everyone could have as positive an experience as I did, because even if it's not a choice you regret it's still kinda scary, and having people there who are compassionate and understanding is very comforting when you're waiting for a big vacuum to slurp out your unwanted contents.

So thank you, boquiabierta. You and all those like you. Thank you so much.

Thanks so much for your comment. I'm so glad your experience was as smooth as possible with compassionate people there for you. If you feel like it, I'm sure the staff would still appreciate a card even though it was over a year ago. That poo poo keeps us going on rough days.

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BattyKiara
Mar 17, 2009


I was in a very abusive marriage. Think things like being burned with cigarettes for refusing a sexual act bad. (Divorced now, and NEVER going to remarry, date, or have sex again. Done with all that) I got pregnant after having my birth control pills thrown out by my husband. Luckily I miscarried literally two days after the positive pregnancy test. However, when I found out I was pregnant, I called a clinic to ask about abortions. The conversation went something like this:


Me: Well, I'm pregnant...

Nurse: Is this happy news for you?

Me: No...(trying not to cry)

Nurse: Then I won't say congratulations. Then she gave me an appointment to come in and talk to a doctor.


That was incredibly helpful! Such a little thing really, but it meant so much to me right there and then.

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boquiabierta
May 27, 2010


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I was in a very abusive marriage. Think things like being burned with cigarettes for refusing a sexual act bad. (Divorced now, and NEVER going to remarry, date, or have sex again. Done with all that) I got pregnant after having my birth control pills thrown out by my husband. Luckily I miscarried literally two days after the positive pregnancy test. However, when I found out I was pregnant, I called a clinic to ask about abortions. The conversation went something like this:


Me: Well, I'm pregnant...

Nurse: Is this happy news for you?

Me: No...(trying not to cry)

Nurse: Then I won't say congratulations. Then she gave me an appointment to come in and talk to a doctor.


That was incredibly helpful! Such a little thing really, but it meant so much to me right there and then.

I'm sorry you had to go through what you did, and I'm glad to hear you got the support you needed from reaching out to the clinic. Hope you are healing well. 💜

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BadSamaritan
May 2, 2008

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Even if a choice is right for a person, it doesn’t mean they will necessarily feel great and want to celebrate jfc. I know a woman who has had to get a 2nd tri abortion of a wanted pregnancy and I’m pretty sure she didn’t want a loving party, even if she was grateful to be able to access the appropriate medical care.

Thank you for what you do. It’s funny, I’ve had to deal with the opposite problem (miscarriage and fertility issues), but going through this process has only strengthened my pro-choice beliefs. Nobody should have to go through pregnancy that doesn’t want to or can’t- it’s mind-boggling that women who have been pregnant can be anti-choice.

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boquiabierta
May 27, 2010


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It’s funny, I’ve had to deal with the opposite problem (miscarriage and fertility issues), but going through this process has only strengthened my pro-choice beliefs. Nobody should have to go through pregnancy that doesn’t want to or can’t- it’s mind-boggling that women who have been pregnant can be anti-choice.

What’s even crazier is that women can get abortions while being anti-choice and they remain anti-choice. 😐

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DoggPickle
Jan 16, 2004

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I was in a very abusive marriage. Think things like being burned with cigarettes for refusing a sexual act bad. (Divorced now, and NEVER going to remarry, date, or have sex again. Done with all that) I got pregnant after having my birth control pills thrown out by my husband. Luckily I miscarried literally two days after the positive pregnancy test. However, when I found out I was pregnant, I called a clinic to ask about abortions. The conversation went something like this:


Me: Well, I'm pregnant...

Nurse: Is this happy news for you?

Me: No...(trying not to cry)

Nurse: Then I won't say congratulations. Then she gave me an appointment to come in and talk to a doctor.


That was incredibly helpful! Such a little thing really, but it meant so much to me right there and then.

I'm sorry about the abusive marriage part.. that's kind of nuts and it's incredible that this sort of thing still happens at all, but isn't it amazing how helpful it can be when one person on the other end of the phone is just generally understanding and doesn't judge you for wanting to be in charge of your own body?

It doesn't have to be this HUGE DEAL that mostly men make it out to be. We bleed every month (unless you're lucky enough to have the implanon stop all that!! Like ME!! Be jealous.. it's awesome!) and we lose eggs and embryos all the time. The farther it gets, the more uncomfortable it is to make a decision, but as long as you're doing it because you just don't want kids, it's really not a big deal at all.

I do feel like we get infantilized like when we're treated as though every decision is some heather summers nude videos grueling heartache, or else we're horrible, callous women. I think a lot of girls HAVE to pretend that it's a huge deal so that they are judged less harshly. If the government etc. would just remove themselves entirely from anything having to do with reproductive health, we would all be a lot better off.

Poverty and lack of care-structure are not everything keeping women from having babies. I think a lot more women than will admit it, just don't want them at that time, and lots of white-knight types are only comfortable supporting us if they act like we would always have more babies if we "could". That makes me very uncomfortable. I'll take all the pro-choice support we can get, but it feels awkward and creepy and disingenuous when they leave no allowance for "I just don't want to be pregnant right now!".

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boquiabierta
May 27, 2010


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It doesn't have to be this HUGE DEAL that mostly men make it out to be. We bleed every month (unless you're lucky enough to have the implanon stop all that!! Like ME!! Be jealous.. it's awesome!) and we lose eggs and embryos all the time. The farther it gets, the more uncomfortable it is to make a decision, but as long as you're doing it because you just don't want kids, it's really not a big deal at all.

I do feel like we get infantilized like when we're treated as though every decision is some free webcam sex movies grueling heartache, or else we're horrible, callous women. I think a lot of girls HAVE to pretend that it's a huge deal so that they are judged less harshly. If the government etc. would just remove themselves entirely from anything having to do with reproductive health, we would all be a lot better off.

Poverty and lack of care-structure are not everything keeping women from having babies. I think a lot more women than will admit it, just don't want them at that time, and lots of white-knight types are only comfortable supporting us if they act like we would always have more babies if we "could". That makes me very uncomfortable. I'll take all the pro-choice support we can get, but it feels awkward and creepy and disingenuous when they leave no allowance for "I just don't want to be pregnant right now!".

I agree with most of this. The number of patients who feel guilty over not feeling guilty is astonishing. So many people think they're alone, no one else does this or has ever felt this way about a pregnancy, if they don't feel sad they must be a horrible person, etc. A sobbing 20-year-old asked me last week if I've seen "kids" younger than her. Uh, only all day every day. The amount of self-flagellation is heartbreaking. The swearing to do better, the eager admittance to wrongdoing on an epic scale, the humiliation and shame offered up in desperate pleas for absolution. I wish I could convey to them how impossibly normal abortion is. I wish I could make them see how their perception of abortion as this deviant, rare, soulless act is so hopelessly twisted it's really just a lie. I wish I could make them understand that sex is normal and healthy and for as long as there have been people having babies there have been people trying to stop having babies. The best I can do for most is to try to plant a seed of unburdening. I tell them that one in four women has an abortion, a revelation that widens their eyes and makes them wonder who they could possibly know in that circle. Some of them tell me it helps, to know that.

I absolutely agree that women should not face societal pressure to reproduce and probably more would choose not to if they didn't face a social backlash over that decision. But it's also true that most people having abortions either have or want children some day. For most, certainly not all, it's not about not having babies; it's about not having this particular baby at this particular time.

I disagree that "as long as you're doing it because you just don't want kids, it's really not a big deal at all." I think people's reasons for choosing abortion are all valid and I try not to put any value judgments on some reasons being more legit than others. I also think it can be as big or small a deal as the patient wants it to be. In the grand scheme, I agree that abortion is not a big deal in that it's a normal and common experience people have around the world, and for most it's not some huge life-changing event. But on an individual level an abortion can certainly be a big deal, in a positive way or a negative way, and I would never tell a patient that it shouldn't be.

*re: Implanon/Nexplanon, the hormonal IUDs and most progestin-only birth control methods (Depo/the shot, progestin-only pills) can also have this effect on your period. But it's different for everyone; some people's bleeding will stop entirely, others will have occasional spotting, and still others will have off-the-wall random bleeding or even bleed all the time. The common denominator is that they do NOT have regular periods but for some people that doesn't work out the way they want. YMMV.

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DoggPickle
Jan 16, 2004

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I agree with most of this. The number of patients who feel guilty over not feeling guilty is astonishing. So many people think they're alone, no one else does this or has ever felt this way about a pregnancy, if they don't feel sad they must be a horrible person, etc. A sobbing 20-year-old asked me last week if I've seen "kids" younger than her. Uh, only all day every day. The amount of self-flagellation is heartbreaking. The swearing to do better, the eager admittance to wrongdoing on an epic scale, the humiliation and shame offered up in desperate pleas for absolution. I wish I could convey to them how impossibly normal abortion is. I wish I could make them see how their perception of abortion as this deviant, rare, soulless act is so hopelessly twisted it's really just a lie. I wish I could make them understand that sex is normal and healthy and for as long as there have been people having babies there have been people trying to stop having babies. The best I can do for most is to try to plant a seed of unburdening. I tell them that one in four women has an abortion, a revelation that widens their eyes and makes them wonder who they could possibly know in that circle. Some of them tell me it helps, to know that.

I absolutely agree that women should not face societal pressure to reproduce and probably more would choose not to if they didn't face a social backlash over that decision. But it's also true that most people having abortions either have or want children some day. For most, certainly not all, it's not about not having babies; it's about not having this particular baby at this particular time.

I disagree that "as long as you're doing it because you just don't want kids, it's really not a big deal at all." I think people's reasons for choosing abortion are all valid and I try not to put any value judgments on some reasons being more legit than others. I also think it can be as big or small a deal as the patient wants it to be. In the grand scheme, I agree that abortion is not a big deal in that it's a normal and common experience people have around the world, and for most it's not some huge life-changing event. But on an individual level an abortion can certainly be a big deal, in a positive way or a negative way, and I would never tell a patient that it shouldn't be.

*re: Implanon/Nexplanon, the hormonal IUDs and most progestin-only birth control methods (Depo/the shot, progestin-only pills) can also have this effect on your period. But it's different for everyone; some people's bleeding will stop entirely, others will have occasional spotting, and still others will have off-the-wall random bleeding or even bleed all the time. The common denominator is that they do NOT have regular periods but for some people that doesn't work out the way they want. YMMV.

I understand, and everyone's mileage may vary. But for the vast majority of educated women (which is my clique, so bear with my narrower understanding) like 90 percent still want kids at some point, just not THIS POINT. But men have a hard time dealing with saying that, so they choose to add lots of caveats about circumstance and in"ability". I'm talking about somewhat progressive men and weirdly women too here, so I feel that you get where I'm coming from. But that little bit of societal acceptable excuse poo poo is what is grating.They're willing to lend us their support as LONG AS there are mitigating circumstances other than "I just don't want to be pregnant and have a kid right now??!" which is a completely legitimate reason not to do it, all on it's own. It doesn't need other excuses. I figure that we'll get there eventually,... maybe.

I do think that even for those who DO think it is some kind of a big deal, would feel less so, if all these other things weren't at play, but that's an area you're much more versed in dealing with. The actual experience would not be THAT bad, if not for the associated stuff. My manual abortion in 1997 by a very reluctant and horribly judgemental office was AWFUL, but my chemical abortion in 2012 was unpleasant, but still the doctor was a very nice lady who never judged me or said a strange word, and it was way less terrible (to me) than a serious dentist appointment. I didn't even miss work.

(Implanon/Nexplanon stuff)
I'm quite clear that I'm an outlier, but I try to get as many of my friends/strangers as possible to give it a shot. It's so non-invasive, can be removed at any point, is 100% effective, doesn't interfere with sex in any way possible, can't fall out or go weird, pays for itself in tampons, and I'm on my 3rd one, and also my 7th straight year of TOTAL NON-PERIOD awesomeness. 31 yo-38. I used to have INSANELY bad periods that lasted a week so 1/4th of my life was spent dealing with blood and cramps and mood swings, and now I honestly forget about it entirely. I don't think you can put a price point on lucia tovar nude gallery never wondering if you started your period. And it's most certainly worth the cost in just tampons.

The effectiveness is also important to me, since I'm so loving fertile that I got pregnant from ONE condom that fell off, and when I was married I got pregnant switching between the patch and the ring, during the period that was supposedly safe (+1 week). Sometimes I feel bad for people that can't get pregnant, but drat I would have switched in an instant and I honestly tend to find them pretty irritating. Sorry barren goons. Stop paying a year's salary to try to make mini you's and Please ADOPT.

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boquiabierta
May 27, 2010


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I do think that even for those who DO think it is some kind of a big deal, would feel less so, if all these other things weren't at play, but that's an area you're much more versed in dealing with. The actual experience would not be THAT bad, if not for the associated stuff.

Oh I agree. I've always said when people have a hard time with abortion, it's almost always related to the circumstances around the pregnancy and/or internalized stigma and shame around abortion.

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Sometimes I feel bad for people that can't get pregnant, but drat I would have switched in an instant and I honestly tend to find them pretty irritating. Sorry barren goons. Stop paying a year's salary to try to make mini you's and Please ADOPT.

Oof. This is pretty harsh. I think the urge to biologically reproduce is strongly hard-wired for many people and they have the right to seek it out, regardless of their fertility level. The right (to attempt to) reproduce the way you want to is as important as the right not to. Adoption is an important option but I don't expect my abortion patients to consider adoption a viable alternative when they cannot continue a pregnancy, and I don't expect people struggling with infertility to see adoption as the answer boys sex with boys when they desperately want to be pregnant. Reproductive rights exist along a spectrum and they are all necessary and intrinsic to being human.

I plan to start trying to get pregnant soon, maybe later this year. Like many women I harbor a secret fear that after so many years of trying and successfully avoiding pregnancy, my body won't be able to get pregnant when I want it to. I have no scientific or medical reason to think my fertility will be any less than the average 31-year-old but still I wonder. And if it's the case that we can't, I sure as hell will at least look into assisted reproduction options before anything else. Adoption's not something I want to have to consider unless it turns out that's the only way I can parent. And honestly if I wind up going through assisted reproduction processes, gently caress anyone who tells me what I'm doing is wrong or I should somehow be responsible for the number of children who need loving homes.

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Oh I agree. I've always said when people have a hard time with abortion, it's almost always related to the circumstances around the pregnancy and/or internalized stigma and shame around abortion.


Oof. This is pretty harsh. I think the urge to biologically reproduce is strongly hard-wired for many people and they have the right to seek it out, regardless of their fertility level. The right (to attempt to) reproduce the way you want to is as important as the right not to. Adoption is an important option but I don't expect my abortion patients to consider adoption a viable alternative when they cannot continue a pregnancy, and I don't expect people struggling with infertility to see adoption as the answer east indian porn movies when they desperately want to be pregnant. Reproductive rights exist along a spectrum and they are all necessary and intrinsic to being human.

I plan to start trying to get pregnant soon, maybe later this year. Like many women I harbor a secret fear that after so many years of trying and successfully avoiding pregnancy, my body won't be able to get pregnant when I want it to. I have no scientific or medical reason to think my fertility will be any less than the average 31-year-old but still I wonder. And if it's the case that we can't, I sure as hell will at least look into assisted reproduction options before anything else. Adoption's not something I want to have to consider unless it turns out that's the only way I can parent. And honestly if I wind up going through assisted reproduction processes, gently caress anyone who tells me what I'm doing is wrong or I should somehow be responsible for the number of children who need loving homes.

You're right. That was quite harsh of me. If I really want to give all women the absolute choice to do anything, they should be equally able to pursue difficult measures to GET pregnant, as they should have every choice to not be pregnant. I just feel like a lot of people who have trouble getting pregnant have an overblown voice in media when they are a very small percentage of Americans (I don't know statistics for other countries, and I wouldn't claim to).

it is normal to get pregnant even when you're trying drat hard not to, and abnormal to be unable to do so, but we're so politically correct that to say "abnormal" is very uncomfortable. There are also SO MANY unwanted kids out there that could use a good home, I find it particularly selfish to demand a half-genetically YOU baby, when you could easily make another kid's life way better. I try to balance this with the understanding that most people have this crazy biological desire to reproduce their own DNA that magically overrides everything else they have ever learned and all their logical tendencies. Some women even WANT to experience pregnancy themselves (which I fundamentally can't understand, but that's just me, and I get that I'm not a normal woman, because I think its gross). But it still comes off as selfish and self-aggrandizing to me. I will also never understand the spending of potential college money or a retirement of total leisure ($30-300,000k) on possibly changing the genes of your kid because you want it to be YOUR DNA and not someone else's?

I understand the natural kid coming from a happy love-match is a sweet and beautiful thing for many people. But when it comes to spending poo poo-loads of money that could be instead spent later on the actual child and using that effort/money to make sure that your child definitely has your own genes, that's when it gets bizarre and unpleasant for me. It becomes less of a natural and loving thing, and more of a perverted effort to rationalize continuing to act like cavemen. I'm sorry I took your thread off-track.

I really do appreciate all that you do, and I'm glad that the USA (at least in spots) has progressed since 1997. ANd I'm quite sad that it has reverted in others.

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PopeCrunch
Feb 13, 2004

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The extent to which I think the government should be involved in abortion is telling insurance companies they can't exclude it. The only 'filter' question I think someone in an abortion clinic should be asked is 'do you want an abortion' just in case they thought they were in a weirdly crotch-obsessed dentist's office or something. Like come on, it ain't my business why someone wants an abortion, I do not care, it is not my problem. (Mostly. If they sort of do want to carry the pregnancy to term, but can't for socioeconomic reasons, then the socioeconomic issues that are coming up need to be addressed, but gestation wins the race against legislation every time. Don't make the person wait, imo. Stuff like that.)

e: I guess a better way to put it is that I care why populations get abortions, I do not care why individuals do. If a significant number of people seek abortions because of Problem X, then X needs attention. One person's reason is not relevant to that.

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Sarah
Apr 4, 2005

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I plan to start trying to get pregnant soon, maybe later this year.

This is an extremely personal question and OK if you don't feel comfortable answering it.

Do you think it will be awkward to still hold your position while visibly pregnant? Have any of your coworkers been pregnant and has it had any impact on patients?

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it is normal to get pregnant even when you're trying drat hard not to, and abnormal to be unable to do so, but we're so politically correct that to say "abnormal" is very uncomfortable. There are also SO MANY unwanted kids out there that could use a good home, I find it particularly selfish to demand a half-genetically YOU baby, when you could easily make another kid's life way better. I try to balance this with the understanding that most people have this crazy biological desire to reproduce their own DNA that magically overrides everything else they have ever learned and all their logical tendencies. Some women even WANT to experience pregnancy themselves (which I fundamentally can't understand, but that's just me, and I get that I'm not a normal woman, because I think its gross). But it still comes off as selfish and self-aggrandizing to me. I will also never understand the spending of potential college money or a retirement of total leisure ($30-300,000k) on possibly changing the genes of your kid because you want it to be YOUR DNA and not someone else's?

I understand the natural kid coming from a happy love-match is a sweet and beautiful thing for many people. But when it comes to spending poo poo-loads of money that could be instead spent later on the actual child and using that effort/money to make sure that your child definitely has your own genes, that's when it gets bizarre and unpleasant for me. It becomes less of a natural and loving thing, and more of a perverted effort to rationalize continuing to act like cavemen. I'm sorry I took your thread off-track.

I don't want to indulge a derail but at the same time you have a serious lack of understanding and a really idealised, unrealistic view of the situation - I wouldn't expect you to get it because as you say, the whole idea of babies is not your jazz and that's totally valid - but in ignorance you're coming across pretty nastily.

As someone who HAS been through this - I can say that my motivation and the motivation of others I knew was not a biological imperative to pass on my genes, but to actually be able to have a family - biological or otherwise. A huge number of infertile couples use donor eggs or sperm (or both). It's not the genes, it's the kid(s). Why spend all that cash on it? Because it's actually bloody hard - at least where I am - to adopt or permanently foster an unrelated child. The constant "JUST ADOPT dont be selfish" refrain immediately identifies anyone who hasn't seriously looked into it.

Where I live the adoption process is to keep the baby in the extended family if possible. External adoption numbers are extremely low - we're talking less than 20 nationally a year. The criteria to even go on the adoption register is really strict to the point that I suspect the fact that my husband takes antidepressants would have been enough to ensure we never would have been successful. International adoption is similarly a huge minefield and also eyewateringly expensive.

Sure, there could have been the option to foster kids - these so called "so many unwanted kids out there that need a good home." But Home-for-life fostering isn't that common here - they aren't your kids because you have to give them back, and the place you have to give them back to is often not a supportive or loving home. It's absolutely heartbreaking stuff, and honestly I think established families either not wanting their own bio-kids or already have kids are better equipped to deal with the emotional rollercoaster of kids coming in and out than an infertile couple desperately wanting a permanent family. It's not selfish to want something that comes so easily to most people, but is out of reach though no fault of your own.

To bring this mostly back to abortions, where the topic rightly belongs - there's been a big abortion debate here recently and it's driving me wild that some sanctimonious pro lifers are pointing at infertility and basically saying that people's uteruses should be held to ransom because abortion has led to low adoption numbers. The idea of someone being forced to carry a baby to term just to give another couple a baby makes me sick. I'm so glad there are safe and effective abortion services available and that people get a say in their own bodily autonomy.

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May 27, 2010


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There are also SO MANY unwanted kids out there that could use a good home, I find it particularly selfish to demand a half-genetically YOU baby, when you could easily make another kid's life way better. I try to balance this with the understanding that most people have this crazy biological desire to reproduce their own DNA that magically overrides everything else they have ever learned and all their logical tendencies. Some women even WANT to experience pregnancy themselves (which I fundamentally can't understand, but that's just me, and I get that I'm not a normal woman, because I think its gross). But it still comes off as selfish and self-aggrandizing to me. I will also never understand the spending of potential college money or a retirement of total leisure ($30-300,000k) on possibly changing the genes of your kid because you want it to be YOUR DNA and not someone else's?

I think there's always an element of selfishness to having children (at least biologically) and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's not like I want kids for altruistic reasons. In fact, I'm terrified of what their lives will be like in this lovely world. But I still want them, and I want them from my eggs and my husband's sperm if possible. Whether or not it should, DNA means a lot to many people and I think it's pretty unrealistic to ask people to get over that basic biological desire.

You may be in a minority of women who don't want to be pregnant/have children, but it's certainly not abnormal. And even among women who want to have children by way of pregnancy it's not like it's unheard of to not free rape porn movie enjoy pregnancy or want it to be over with asap.

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The constant "JUST ADOPT dont be selfish" refrain immediately identifies anyone who hasn't seriously looked into it.

Yeah, good point that adoption is far from a silver bullet and comes with its own fraught issues.

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This is an extremely personal question and OK if you don't feel comfortable answering it.

Do you think it will be awkward to still hold your position while visibly pregnant? Have any of your coworkers been pregnant and has it had any impact on patients?

I don't mind the question and don't even really consider it personal. I'm pretty open and believe in sharing personal stories as a way to combat stigma.

I have worked with many pregnant coworkers who have happily provided abortion services throughout their wanted pregnancies. I think it can be a bit jarring to some patients but in general it's not a big deal. Abortion care workers are like any other group of people who have babies and have abortions and have their own individual reproductive journeys. I think most patients get that. Here's a great clip from a pregnant abortion provider about this question.

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Sarah
Apr 4, 2005

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The nurse who cared for my sister when she had her abortion was very pregnant at the time. Apparently my sister was weirded out at first, but the nurse just shrugged and told her that there’s a huge difference between an 8mo wanted fetus and an unwanted first-trimester embryo, which apparently helped assuage my sister’s anxiety a bit. Abortion providers are so often painted as anti-child baby-haters by the compulsory-childbirth side that it can be reassuring to realize that they’re actually pro-family, often baby-loving people, like all the other patients who’ve had abortions and also given birth.

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May 27, 2010


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I think there's always an element of selfishness to having children (at least biologically) and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's not like I want kids for altruistic reasons. In fact, I'm terrified of what their lives will be like in this lovely world. But I still want them, and I want them from my eggs and my husband's sperm if possible. Whether or not it should, DNA means a lot to many people and I think it's pretty unrealistic to ask people to get over that basic biological desire.

You may be in a minority of women who don't want to be pregnant/have children, but it's certainly not abnormal. And even among women who want to have children by way of pregnancy it's not like it's unheard of to not adult porn tube movies enjoy pregnancy or want it to be over with asap.


Yeah, good point that adoption is far from a silver bullet and comes with its own fraught issues.


I don't mind the question and don't even really consider it personal. I'm pretty open and believe in sharing personal stories as a way to combat stigma.

I have worked with many pregnant coworkers who have happily provided abortion services throughout their wanted pregnancies. I think it can be a bit jarring to some patients but in general it's not a big deal. Abortion care workers are like any other group of people who have babies and have abortions and have their own individual reproductive journeys. I think most patients get that. Here's a great clip from a pregnant abortion provider about this question.

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Yeah I don't understand why anyone would be weirded out by a pregnant nurse who does abortions. It's just a symptom of the bizarre cloud of judgement around anything having to do with choosing not to have a baby (at that specific time).

Still sorry about the minor derail. Like I said, although I don't deeply understand the desire myself, and I don't believe in magical thinking, there is something verging on the magical to create a new, conscious human being who is half you and half someone you love, so I understand how that is an awesome thing to want, and biologically totally sensible. I just have some issues with the people that spend tons of time and money on this particular thing and act very aggrieved when it doesn't work out, when they could much more easily adopt, and enrich another life that already exists instead of focusing so much energy on enriching the life of person that does not yet exist. (not sure what those stats were about adoption and what country that was from, but they certainly don't represent the United States at all)

In the same vein, and to poke holes in my own point because it's just a ludicrous thing.. I tried to adopt a cat once, and although at the time I was independently "doing fine" because my parents had just died and I had taken off work to attempt to fix up their house which was an hour away from mine, so I could sell it and stop paying 2 mortgages, the adoption agency FOR A CAT, wouldn't let me take it because I didn't have a job. Not joking. Even though I was generally home much more than a working person, with a pretty drat solid bank account, and I had a full-size house and was a responsible grown-up and everything. I still laugh about that. I know judgemental people in the human-child-adoption process is not a laughing matter, but I think we all need something to laugh about now and then. I hope we can all still laugh sometimes.

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Sometimes I feel bad for people that can't get pregnant, but drat I would have switched in an instant and I honestly tend to find them pretty irritating. Sorry barren goons. Stop paying a year's salary to try to make mini you's and Please ADOPT.

Hey I’m not gonna derail this much further but you come across *really* badly here. You are super uneducated about how infertility and adoption work. 1 in 8 couples run into fertility problems when trying to have a kid, so it’s not rare, and you should get off your high horse.

Adoption is tremendously expensive and a very intensive process. Infertility treatments can be markedly more affordable for the average family even if insurance doesn’t cover it (and many cover in part or full)- some treatments also identify and address underlying medical issues, which apparently you would rather women not do?

You also should realize what you’re saying here is the counterpart to ‘Sorry, she got herself knocked up, so she should take some accountability for her actions.’ Women have an array of choices throughout their reproductive years, and they often are most aware of their needs and medical situations. They certainly don’t need your input.

e: I do see you posted your apology while I was angry-typing, and thank you. It was a really crummy and ill-informed thing to say. Infertility/miscarriage can take a huge emotional toll, and you hear a lot of advice and opinions along the way- much of which is specially designed to shame you and make you question yourself (the one constant of being a woman?). Thanks for walking it back.

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Yeah I don't understand why anyone would be weirded out by a pregnant nurse who does abortions. It's just a symptom of the bizarre cloud of judgement around anything having to do with choosing not to have a baby (at that specific time).

Step outside of yourself for a moment and realize that just because you can't understand what other people feel doesn't mean what they feel isn't valid.

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Step outside of yourself for a moment and realize that just because you can't understand what other people feel doesn't mean what they feel isn't valid.

I said a fair amount of atypical things, which I have been fairly called out on, but weirdly, this was NOT one of them. If you believe in the absolute right of women to make that choice at any time for any reason, which any liberated woman SHOULD believe, then there is absolutely zero contradiction in a pregnant woman helping to provide abortions.

She wants to have a baby right now. Good for her. She also wants to help other women to not make babies when they don't want to. Those two things are not exclusive in any possible way.

It's just some hangup that you have that doesn't make any sense. ?

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vortmax
Sep 24, 2008

vorticity (n):
A measure of the local rotation in a fluid flow. In weather analysis and forecasting, it usually refers to the vertical component of rotation and is used most often in reference to synoptic scale or mesoscale weather systems.


Pillbug

You've hosed up bad in a few threads I follow. Maybe you should take a break from posting. I mean, longer than the ones imposed on you by probations.

So OP, how do you become a clinic escort? I've thought about doing it before, but I really don't know where to start.

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Feb 11, 2007
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#1 google "abortions near _____" (there are clinics other than PP)

#2 after determining they're legit and not crisis pregnancy center bullshit, call and ask if they use or want escorts (the answer may be no)

#3 do what they say, and realize they are not gonna trust you and are gonna do a lot of screening because antis can also easily do #1 and #2

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You've hosed up bad in a few threads I follow. Maybe you should take a break from posting. I mean, longer than the ones imposed on you by probations.

So OP, how do you become a clinic escort? I've thought about doing it before, but I really don't know where to start.

I've been probated 5 times in 15 years. A couple randoms were rightly deserved and I got a few in the year after I had a severe stroke and my brain was literally broken. I had to learn how to walk and write again; I think a few screw-ups on social media were the least of my problems. None of that has anything to do with this thread, or anything that I've said here. It probably seems "spergy" to even respond to this type of thing, but it isn't cool at all to dismiss someone entirely for unrelated reasons. It's not logical or funny. It's not witty or cool that you looked up my "rap-sheet" because you didn't like me. It's just stupid and boring and b.s., like telling a woman that she can never run for congress because someone found a sexting pic from 1997 where she showed her boobs to her boyfriend, so now she's a joke that can never be taken seriously.

It has nothing to do with anything.

It's seriously the same type of thing that leads men to be "okay" and very understanding about the abortion from the "sweet/pure" girl who supposedly got pregnant from her first time EVER, vs. the girl who got pregnant from her third boyfriend. (even though it was 3 or 4 or 10 years and it's entirely the same thing). There is so much judgment in that entire equation, and none of it is worth anything at all if you truly believe that women should be in charge of their own bodies.

You could very easily equate what you just did with me, to looking up and judging the entire life history of a woman before making your judgement about her choices. Was she a near-virgin who was in an abusive relationship? Or a "whore" who had lots of sex with many partners over the last 20 years (like a normal person)? We joke about it, but this ridiculous distinction means a LOT to MANY people. It's still a woman who is pregnant and doesn't want to be. All those other circumstances don't have anything to do with anything. Arrgh.

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vortmax
Sep 24, 2008

vorticity (n):
A measure of the local rotation in a fluid flow. In weather analysis and forecasting, it usually refers to the vertical component of rotation and is used most often in reference to synoptic scale or mesoscale weather systems.


Pillbug

Wow, yeah, I didn't look up your rap sheet, you literally just got probated in another thread I read for posting like this.

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#1 google "abortions near _____" (there are clinics other than PP)

#2 after determining they're legit and not crisis pregnancy center bullshit, call and ask if they use or want escorts (the answer may be no)

#3 do what they say, and realize they are not gonna trust you and are gonna do a lot of screening because antis can also easily do #1 and #2

Thanks! Yeah, I don't expect them to trust me right away, but I would like to help out somehow, more than with monetary donations anyway. It sucks that such a thing as a clinic escort is even necessary.

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Wow, yeah, I didn't look up your rap sheet, you literally just got probated in another thread I read for posting like this.


Thanks! Yeah, I don't expect them to trust me right away, but I would like to help out somehow, more than with monetary donations anyway. It sucks that such a thing is even necessary.
I posted in a total of TWO threads last night. So either you read a ton of threads or you happened to be in the only TWO that I posted in? Really? I got probated because I called that girl out for spreading unreasonable expectations about women in a thread about INCELS being jerks with unreasonable expectations about women of all things. She was a tremendous bitch who's only purpose was to brag about her tiny body and huge boobs. I was literally SHOCKED that she wasn't being made fun of from the outset.

It's relevant because of the context of those posts. I was legitimately fascinated by the incel phenomenon which is rather new to me, but has a pretty strong bearing on this thread also. Its the same root problem. Half the world (and usually the powerful half) just plain doesn't see women as people, and it causes all kinds of bizarre effects, some obvious, and a lot more insidious stuff.

A lot more men that we realize, don't TRULY see women as equal as we think they do. In everyday situations, it seems like they think we are equal, because nothing challenging comes up. They say a lot of awesome things and "technically" they are willing to GIVE us all the same rights BUT as soon as we stray too much into any of the arenas that they are uncomfortable with, those rights become conditional. I've never been a huge feminist, but just plain living long enough has led me to these conclusions from observation over time.

This is how we can slowly lose rights, little by little, behind our backs. Legislators couch it in conditional terms that are very judgy so nobody will argue. Nobody argues for RANDOM BABY KILLING or wants to get in a huge argument about 1 week more or less here or there, or the required width of a hallway for a clinic to be certified. Nobody wants to argue that 3.5 feet wide is just as good as 4 feet wide. They have better poo poo to do. Nobody has the gigantic balls to argue against something like a "Heartbeats are adorable" bill. The next thing you know, we have entire states with ONE certified abortion clinic. I'm not particularly militant or politically active, but always in the back of my mind, this chipping away at our rights is frustrating as all hell! So it's gonna come out occasionally.

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I said a fair amount of atypical things, which I have been fairly called out on, but weirdly, this was NOT one of them. If you believe in the absolute right of women to make that choice at any time for any reason, which any liberated woman SHOULD believe, then there is absolutely zero contradiction in a pregnant woman helping to provide abortions.

She wants to have a baby right now. Good for her. She also wants to help other women to not make babies when they don't want to. Those two things are not exclusive in any possible way.

It's just some hangup that you have that doesn't make any sense. ?

It's not about what I believe, I asked the question not because I feel it would be inappropriate behavior for an abortion care nurse to be pregnant, but if it had/could have an impact on patients, how it might impact OP. You went off about how "It's just a symptom of the bizarre cloud of judgement around anything having to do with choosing not to have a baby (at that specific time)." You have no idea whats going on in anyone's head, please stop doing this.

It sounds like from this post that you assumed I was questioning her ability to do her job properly being pregnant, which I was not. I was not saying/suggesting that being pregnant was a contradiction to OP providing care. I was simply asking a question.

In case you're still confused, the thought of asking the question came from if I was pregnant and my care nurse was, might I feel some guilt? Maybe start re-thinking? But OP wonderfully answered the question on how that's handled, and confirmed that yes sometimes it does impact the patient, but they are prepared to handle it.

Also putting myself in the providers shoes: I'm not a strong enough person to handle that. I'm glad OP is.

Asking a question here doesn't mean you are waving a pro-life or pro-choice flag. This is an ask/tell thread. You ask questions.

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Half the world (and usually the powerful half) just plain doesn't see women as people,

Frankly from your posting, you don’t seem to either. At least women who don’t view/do things how you do.

OP- how does your clinic deal with people who are further along than they thought they were? Like if during the US the dating ends up too late for what your clinic performs? I imagine that’s a rare but tricky scenario.

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