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How is it hard? Spider-Man and Mary Jane are a couple. They have couple problems. Mary Jane's personality was defined in the Steve Ditko/Stan Lee run. Make her that but grown up. Have her involved with his life, like spouses tend to be. Have her have her own problems. Have them intersect like Peter and Spider-Man's problems do.

Also, give them a kid. Because that way parents can relate and kids can relate.

No, nobody could possibly relate to a married Spider-man, let alone a Dad Spider-man.

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How is it hard? Spider-Man and Mary Jane are a couple. They have couple problems. Mary Jane's personality was defined in the Steve Ditko/Stan Lee run. Make her that but grown up. Have her involved with his life, like spouses tend to be. Have her have her own problems. Have them intersect like Peter and Spider-Man's problems do.

Also, give them a kid. Because that way parents can relate and kids can relate.

She was most definitely not defined in the Lee/Ditko era, she appeared exactly once with an obscured face. She didn't have an actual face, let alone personality, until Romita Sr. was drawing it. And Peter and MJ didn't become a serious couple until Gwen Stacy died, which was after Stan Lee stopped writing the comic.

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Was MJ's plane death presented as an obvious red herring, something fishy going on for a couple months or was it a complety bizarre way to shelf a character? I read the issue where she comes back but no idea when she died.

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Apr 6, 2007

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How is it hard? Spider-Man and Mary Jane are a couple. They have couple problems. Mary Jane's personality was defined in the Steve Ditko/Stan Lee run. Make her that but grown up. Have her involved with his life, like spouses tend to be. Have her have her own problems. Have them intersect like Peter and Spider-Man's problems do.

Also, give them a kid. Because that way parents can relate and kids can relate.

Siri, show me the venn diagram of people who wrote married Spider-Man and have always been single, are vocally misogynist, and/or have been divorced

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Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


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She was most definitely not defined in the Lee/Ditko era, she appeared exactly once with an obscured face. She didn't have an actual face, let alone personality, until Romita Sr. was drawing it. And Peter and MJ didn't become a serious couple until Gwen Stacy died, which was after Stan Lee stopped writing the comic.

Okay, whenever she was defined. The fact she was defined at some point.

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Siri, show me the venn diagram of people who wrote married Spider-Man and have always been single, are vocally misogynist, and/or have been divorced

Siri? This is a google house, motherfucker.

Also, who were the vocally misogynist Spider-Man writers?

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And that's everything that happened since Superior Spider-Man.

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but at this point they're well aware of each other's identities right?

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Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


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god dammit.

but at this point they're well aware of each other's identities right?

I actually forget if Spider-Man revealed his identity. But, Peter knew Flashes' identity.

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Okay, whenever she was defined. The fact she was defined at some point.

I'd argue that she's never been particularly well-defined except for brief periods where a writer really takes a shine to her. She spent a lot of the first decades of her existence as one of a rotating group of potential Peter Parker love interests, and to be frank if you just read through it all chronologically their wedding really does seem to come out of nowhere. And even after the wedding writers had wildly different takes on her-- how assertive she was, how concerned about her husband's double-life, how neurotic, how selfless, etc.., which led to a lot of plots where she's either just there to be menaced, or there to look mournfully out of the panel consumed with anxiety.


I think MJ is a cool character but for the most part writers-- especially after the marriage-- seemed to view her as a narrative inconvenience, a cheap source of cheesecake and misogynist tropes, or an outright impediment to writing Spider-Man stories. Hence, I think, the multiple attempts to write her or the marriage out even before ODM.

To be fair, I think part of this is just a fact of how the Spider-Man books were set up around the time of the wedding through her first (?) faked death-- you had multiple titles, each with a different thematic or tonal hook (sort of, they got quite blurry and homogenous in the 90s), and each writer had to figure out how to incorporate this huge new shift in Spidey's status quo. Understandly, each landed on a different note, without a strong editorial hand to tie those notes together into a cohesive unit. It was a mess, and unlike someone like Aunt May or Doc Ock, there wasn't big nude black girls as much precedent to draw on in making her character *feel* consistent.

So for example, you suggest giving her own problems to deal with, which is a good suggestion, but in one book her problem would be something soapy and melodramatic like being offered a nude scene in a movie, in another it would be trying to quit smoking in a very heavy-handed 90s way, in another it would be dealing with her kooky younger cousin, who would later get her own interminable eating disorder subplot, and in another it would involve being kidnapped by a maniacal landlord. Again, this isn't a slam on her character, it's a slam on the sorry state of the Spider-Man line at the time, which both compartmentalized its narrative load among too many hands, and had to deal with so many of those hands being bad at their jobs. It's hard to overstate the extent to which early 90s Spider-Man was a complete and utter mess, which is why the nuclear option of the Clone Saga was tolerated for so long-- anything to shake up what felt like a lackluster and sloppy universe, and tie it together a bit.

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I actually forget if Spider-Man revealed his identity. But, Peter knew Flashes' identity.

He did at the end.

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Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


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I'd argue that she's never been particularly well-defined except for brief periods where a writer really takes a shine to her. She spent a lot of the first decades of her existence as one of a rotating group of potential Peter Parker love interests, and to be frank if you just read through it all chronologically their wedding really does seem to come out of nowhere. And even after the wedding writers had wildly different takes on her-- how assertive she was, how concerned about her husband's double-life, how neurotic, how selfless, etc.., which led to a lot of plots where she's either just there to be menaced, or there to look mournfully out of the panel consumed with anxiety.


I think MJ is a cool character but for the most part writers-- especially after the marriage-- seemed to view her as a narrative inconvenience, a cheap source of cheesecake and misogynist tropes, or an outright impediment to writing Spider-Man stories. Hence, I think, the multiple attempts to write her or the marriage out even before ODM.

To be fair, I think part of this is just a fact of how the Spider-Man books were set up around the time of the wedding through her first (?) faked death-- you had multiple titles, each with a different thematic or tonal hook (sort of, they got quite blurry and homogenous in the 90s), and each writer had to figure out how to incorporate this huge new shift in Spidey's status quo. Understandly, each landed on a different note, without a strong editorial hand to tie those notes together into a cohesive unit. It was a mess, and unlike someone like Aunt May or Doc Ock, there wasn't hot sex scenes movie as much precedent to draw on in making her character *feel* consistent.

So for example, you suggest giving her own problems to deal with, which is a good suggestion, but in one book her problem would be something soapy and melodramatic like being offered a nude scene in a movie, in another it would be trying to quit smoking in a very heavy-handed 90s way, in another it would be dealing with her kooky younger cousin, who would later get her own interminable eating disorder subplot, and in another it would involve being kidnapped by a maniacal landlord. Again, this isn't a slam on her character, it's a slam on the sorry state of the Spider-Man line at the time, which both compartmentalized its narrative load among too many hands, and had to deal with so many of those hands being bad at their jobs. It's hard to overstate the extent to which early 90s Spider-Man was a complete and utter mess, which is why the nuclear option of the Clone Saga was tolerated for so long-- anything to shake up what felt like a lackluster and sloppy universe, and tie it together a bit.

Huh, I thought it was always established that Mary Jane was the playful assertive party girl with self-respect. The type who liked to have fun when they were younger. But, grew up because, well, people tend to. Into a person who was still fun-loving, but responsible. And had to deal with the worries that come from having a husband with a dangerous job that keeps him from home often. As the son of a cop, those aren't hard to imagine. That she had her own acting and modeling career she was taking seriously. And wasn't selfish and understood what her husband did was for the good of other people and would support and help him. Though, of course, sometimes feel neglected like any human would from time-to-time. But also not afraid to do the right thing and get involved when the moment arised.

Maybe that's just how I viewed the character.

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Mary Jane is one of my favorite characters in comics, and I do agree with that description of how I'd view her, but in actuality it did fluctuate around contrived stalker drama, worried cop's wife, Gwen-Stacy lite, etc. She's been treated like crap most of the time.

I'd prefer "Mary Jane is basically Stan Lee re-incarnated" form during the Romita era over how she's been treated. Like, that voice for the character, smacks of Stan Lee's. Fun loving, independent, confident, young woman. Shouldn't be too hard to stretch that into a sharp minded witty woman with a globe trotting model-celebrity trying to break into movies/music life or make her the breadwinner for the Parkers so Peter can do his thing and they can retain a middle class standing instead of constant poo poo on for some reason I don't get. She's a spice as a supporting character to liven things up at worst.

And this obsession to do away with the marriage so a bunch of writers/editors can re-live their childhoods or some poo poo cause nothing wortwhile came out of doing away with it. They don't get Spider-man. The character's actually shown growth over time into a man of the life span of his books and A Brand New Day took a huge re-tread and dump. Having Parker be a Dad with MJ was a good next step. But, like with most things, get the right creative staff and it works.

Just like people complaining about writing Superman as too powerful, it speaks more to your limitations than anything of the character.

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Nov 21, 2003

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Its amazing how Marvel struggles but when I hear whats going on in DC books I'm just "ugh really? that's whats happening? Why are people buying this?".

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Who's struggling? This month with Batman #50 it might be different, but Marvel always has the bigger market share, even if they don't dominate the top spots.

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May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


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Who's struggling? This month with Batman #50 it might be different, but Marvel always has the bigger market share, even if they don't dominate the top spots.

It was chic to claim Marvel was two-minutes away from bankruptcy until a couple weeks ago. Everyone took the doomsaying they were saying about New 52 and DC You DC and put it on Marvel when Rebirth happened...even if it made no sense.

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Who's struggling? This month with Batman #50 it might be different, but Marvel always has the bigger market share, even if they don't dominate the top spots.

I'm corrected then. i assumed the fact DC was always dominant in the top 10 sales meant that had the stronger sales over all.

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Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


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I'm corrected then. i assumed the fact DC was always dominant in the top 10 sales meant that had the stronger sales over all.

Last I checked, it's like 39.5% Marvel, 35% DC.

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Keep in mind even if Marvel doesn't sell as many books as DC, all of its books are more expensive, so it makes way more money.

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Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


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Keep in mind even if Marvel doesn't sell as many books as DC, all of its books are more expensive, so it makes way more money.

Not anymore. DC raised the prices.

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Last I checked, it's like 39.5% Marvel, 35% DC.

It used to be much more skewed in Marvel's favour, didn't it? (I'm sure DC used to be in the 20s) Did Rebirth really help that much?

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Last I checked, it's like 39.5% Marvel, 35% DC.

May 2018 was Marvel 38.25% and DC 37.87% for unit share and 42.64% and 25.71% for dollar share. That did include a $10 issue of Amazing Spider-Man as the #1 comic for the month, though. April, Marvel had a higher unit share, but a lower dollar share.

The "Marvel is struggling" rhetoric comes from this being a pretty significant shift from not too long ago when Marvel was consistently selling around double the number of comics as DC (roughly two years into the New 52 era after the shine had worn off). The comics industry as a whole has pretty much remained flat for the past 5-10 years in terms of unit sales, though they've increased dollar sales quite a bit, which suggests Marvel's unit sales are dropping, but they're probably making the same money.

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Was MJ's plane death presented as an obvious red herring, something fishy going on for a couple months or was it a complety bizarre way to shelf a character? I read the issue where she comes back but no idea when she died.
I think it was just a way to shelve her for a little while, the writer who conceived of the plane crash (Howard Mackie) brought her back at the end of his run. I think it was roughly only about 10-15 issues anyway. I started reading around that time also. The whole thing was wrapped up in the Amazing Spider-Man 2001 Annual iirc.

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Huh, I thought it was always established that Mary Jane was the playful assertive party girl with self-respect. The type who liked to have fun when they were younger. But, grew up because, well, people tend to. Into a person who was still fun-loving, but responsible.
That's kind of what happened, the big watershed moment was after Gwen's death. She visits Peter and he snaps at her because of her party girl lifestyle, and tells her to leave. She turns to do so, but instead closes the door and stays to comfort him. I don't know whether she was written somewhat inconsistently after that, though.

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I think it was just a way to shelve her for a little while, the writer who conceived of the plane crash (Howard Mackie) brought her back at the end of his run. I think it was roughly only about 10-15 issues anyway. I started reading around that time also. The whole thing was wrapped up in the Amazing Spider-Man 2001 Annual iirc.

That's kind of what happened, the big watershed moment was after Gwen's death. She visits Peter and he snaps at her because of her party girl lifestyle, and tells her to leave. She turns to do so, but instead closes the door and stays to comfort him. I don't know whether she was written somewhat inconsistently after that, though.

She toned down a little bit after Gwen’s death but was still a party girl. Peter proposed to her not too long after that and she turned him down, then she was gone from the book for a loooong time. When Stern and Defalco brought her back in the mid 80s, they finally gave her some depth and backstory - the whole thing with her parents, her sister, her knowing Peter’s secret - and made her a better character. It was a great combination of “will they/won’t they” and “someone who understands my super hero stuff”.

She really became the strong moral support for Peter, but also really came into her own as a model and independent woman. I think one of my favorite moments was when she secretly had Peter’s apartment redecorated after a fire - it was a great gesture, but also her saying “quit moping around and get your poo poo together” to him.

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Was MJ's plane death presented as an obvious red herring, something fishy going on for a couple months or was it a complety bizarre way to shelf a character? I read the issue where she comes back but no idea when she died.

Guess it depends on how familiar a reader is with the whole notion of "no body". We didn't see her actually die or ever see her dead body so it was suspicious to me. And while it may not have been bizarre for any character, for someone so high-profile it was definitely weird.

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How is the Ms. Marvel/Squirrel Girl comic?

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How is the Ms. Marvel/Squirrel Girl comic?

It's pretty delightful. Having North and Wilson on the book obviously helps to maintain the characters' voices and tones but it really works seamlessly. It's a bit of a confection maybe, but if you like either of the books it's worth reading.

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Spencers Spiderman isn't the most awful thing in the world

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Spencers Spiderman isn't the most awful thing in the world

free fat people porn And Peter and MJ are back together for now

Not a fan of Spencer at all, but I am happy about that part at least.

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Not a fan of Spencer at all, but I am happy about that part at least.

He seemed to do well on his previous Spider-Man project, maybe it'll work out. A lot writing Spider-Man well seems to be understanding what people like about Peter and his supporting cast. Stern got it, Conway got it, Waid got it, Kelly got it, Bendis got it. Maybe Spencer does?

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How is the Ms. Marvel/Squirrel Girl comic?

The antagonist is kind of meh, and I felt the two set up comics not written by North and Wilson felt a bit off. That said, the recent issue was fun.

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Nov 27, 2002

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I've read lots of good Spencer premises, but never a good Spencer ending. Has he ever finished a story in a satisfying way? I liked the artist on Invincible but I don't feel like jumping into something that you just know will disappoint a couple trades in.

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Oct 14, 2005



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I've read lots of good Spencer premises, but never a good Spencer ending. Has he ever finished a story in a satisfying way? I liked the artist on Invincible but I don't feel like jumping into something that you just know will disappoint a couple trades in.

The ending of Superior Foes was really good.

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The ending of Superior Foes was really good.

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That last page of Darkhawk today really made me smile. I want to petition Marvel to let them write a book all about just random '90s D-listers because I love all of those characters.

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That last page of Darkhawk today really made me smile. I want to petition Marvel to let them write a book all about just random '90s D-listers because I love all of those characters.

There's a new Darkhawk series? Also speaking of 90's as hell poo poo, how's the Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider series, I know people didn't like it when it started but enough time has passed that maybe it found its voice?

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There's a new Darkhawk series? Also speaking of 90's as hell poo poo, how's the Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider series, I know people didn't like it when it started but enough time has passed that maybe it found its voice?

It's a 4 issue mini-series tied in with Infinity Countdown or whatever the hell it's called

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There's a new Darkhawk series? Also speaking of 90's as hell poo poo, how's the Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider series, I know people didn't like it when it started but enough time has passed that maybe it found its voice?

I read a fair bit of it out of curiosity. It starts off as very much like this...wacky anti-hero Spider-Deadpool thing? and it's very unappealing. That mellows a bit after the first couple of issues, and it briefly becomes a kind of readable more standard superhero comic, but it's still not really very good.

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It's a 4 issue mini-series tied in with Infinity Countdown or whatever the hell it's called
I haven't read the last issue, so I might be wrong, but it only loosely ties in, and I think even people not reading the main mini could read it without a problem.

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