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Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012


Tired of this stuff filling up threads only tangentially related 2 the subject, if u got a hot take & rly wanna Debate and Discuss or whatever James Gunn firing, Mike Cernovich, Hollywood, etc. this is the place 4 u, not the Sexual Assault thread or the Who Green-lighted thread or the Comic Book Movie thread, etc...let loose.

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Wow, that's a real effort OP. I've hear CineD is a really smart forum and it does not disappoint.

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Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012


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Wow, that's a real effort OP. I've hear CineD is a really smart forum and it does not disappoint.

make a better thread and i'll close this one

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CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Fair.

Dan Harmon isn't going to be fired for making a gross crude joke in the past which he deleted on a network that aired this

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NotJustANumber99
Feb 15, 2012

Unlike me, many of you have accepted the situation of your imprisonment, and will die here like rotten cabbages.

whether someone's going to be fired or not perhaps shouldn't be your prime concern here? maybe I dunno.

Or maybe it is? Is that what this thread is about? Hat thoughts suggests its up to the thread what this thread is about and he's not overly fussed.

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Mar 18, 2014

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After giving it a couple days to think over this James Gunn/Disney controversy, I've come to the conclusion that the Mouse got played. Yes, Gunn's decade-old tweets were distasteful and stupid, but clearly meant to be foolishly provocative rather than taken as advocacy. The whole uproar over them was plainly ginned up by two Breitbart hatchet men, John Nolte and Mike Cernovich, in response to Rosanne Barr's firing for her repeated hate-filled and racist tweets. I have to agree with Dave Bautisa on this one. Disney accepted a ridiculous apple and oranges argument and made one hell of a bad call.

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my take: it is some insane bullshit that he got fired for tweets made a decade ago that were very clearly in jest (if extremely unfunny) and which he's directly apologized for since. if he were making those tweets now, if the tweets seemed remotely like serious advocacy for their subject matter, if he hadn't made any attempt to change and do better, or any mix of the three, then sure, whatever, but... literally none of those are true in Gunn's case. the tweets were ancient, were clearly jokes, and dude has gone out of his way to be better than he was a decade ago.

the fact that Disney should have seriously known about and expected this, given he was a loving Troma writer who has Tromeo & Juliet, a movie that is half incest jokes by volume, in his filmography makes it even more galling

(and before someone goes "HE DIDN'T APOLOGIZE FOR THE TWEETS HE APOLOGIZED FOR THAT LISTICLE," no, he apologized for the tweets too, it just wasn't prompted by people making GBS threads on him like the listicle apology was)

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Fart City
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!


Thanks for making a thread for this, Hat Thoughts.

I've been seeing a lot of discussion around what should be considered in and off-limits for comedy, with a lot of people saying that Gunn/Harmon/et al are victims of their own fault by going outside of the normal boundaries of taste. I fundamentally disagree with that; I think that gallows humor is a vital necessity to the human experience. If we can't laugh at the worst poo poo in the world every now and then, the world would be an unbearable place to live in.

Anyway.

I was flipping through cable tonight and came across Deadpool on FX. I was struck by an exchange that takes place between Wade Wilson and his girlfriend Vanessa, when they first meet:

Deadpool, a major motion picture released in 2016 posted:


Wade Wilson: Rough childhood?

Vanessa Carlysle: Rougher than yours. Daddy left before I was born.

Wade Wilson: Daddy left before I was conceived.

Vanessa Carlysle: Ever had a cigarette put out on your skin?

Wade Wilson: Where else do you put one out?

Vanessa Carlysle: I was molested!

Wade Wilson: Me too. Uncle.

Vanessa Carlysle: Uncles. They took turns.


So that's straight-up an incest/surprise sex joke in one of the most successful comic book movies released by a major studio in the past couple of years. To me, Gunn's remarks may have been less clever (waaaaaay less clever), but they fall within the same shock shtick. Context matters, and that I worry may be getting a little blurry on that concept. Like if you disagree with me and feel that Gunn and Harmon are a different case, I'm willing to hear your take, but to me that's a really fine line.

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Nov 5, 2011

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Is it true that the tweets themselves were already deleted a long time ago and that Cernovich had to use some sort of third party service to find them? I'd seen a couple of people mention that in the other thread, but I don't think I've seen that mentiojed in any of the articles covering what happened.

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Is it true that the tweets themselves were already deleted a long time ago and that Cernovich had to use some sort of third party service to find them? I'd seen a couple of people mention that in the other thread, but I don't think I've seen that mentiojed in any of the articles covering what happened.

That's what I read.

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zandert33
Sep 20, 2002



In my opinion no joke should be off limits. Whether or not the person should be "shunned" for the joke comes down completely to intent and motivation.

If a person's intent in telling the type of jokes that James Gunn told is to tell that they are a child molester or to support other molesters, then he should have been shunned for those jokes.

A personal example. I have a friend who's east Asian and I make stupid Asian jokes to him, and he makes ethnic jokes back to me. At the end of the day, we know we care about either other, and the context CLEARLY shows that we mean no harm by the jokes, and if I heard a hateful person making similar comments to my friend I'd be furious about it. Nobody is offended or bothered within the context of the conversation, but I'm sure if somebody else heard my comments out of context they might think they are helping at throwing a fit over it, but that's without knowing the context and years of history that my friend and I have with each other.

It seemed we as a society were turning the corner to move past the days of the "seven dirty words", but we've actually somehow turned the corner in a completely different way in which the content of the words is nitpicked now more than ever. I don't see how this type of censorship is helpful to our society at all.

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In my opinion no joke should be off limits. Whether or not the person should be "shunned" for the joke comes down completely to intent and motivation.

If a person's intent in telling the type of jokes that James Gunn told is to tell that they are a child molester or to support other molesters, then he should have been shunned for those jokes.

A personal example. I have a friend who's east Asian and I make stupid Asian jokes to him, and he makes ethnic jokes back to me. At the end of the day, we know we care about either other, and the context CLEARLY shows that we mean no harm by the jokes, and if I heard a hateful person making similar comments to my friend I'd be furious about it. Nobody is offended or bothered within the context of the conversation, but I'm sure if somebody else heard my comments out of context they might think they are helping at throwing a fit over it, but that's without knowing the context and years of history that my friend and I have with each other.

It seemed we as a society were turning the corner to move past the days of the "seven dirty words", but we've actually somehow turned the corner in a completely different way in which the content of the words is nitpicked now more than ever. I don't see how this type of censorship is helpful to our society at all.

You're right, If I want to roast a 12 year old at his birthday, I should not be shunned, because my intent was to have a fun roast like on comedy central, it's not my fault your kid can't take a joke! gently caress you! I'll leave when I'm good and ready, HEY don't touch me, that's ASSAULT, SOMEONE CALL THE COPS! *gets forcibly ejected from Chuck-e-Cheese*

But seriously though, where was the pitchfork wielding mob? No one forced Disney. Disney fired a person because they are a poo poo bag, cowardly corporation that exists to maximize profit potential. They saw some internet grumbling and went, "Well, every single employee we have, even directors, are all immediately replaceable and firing a person to dispel anger usually works, therefor he's fired." This isn't censorship meant to be helpful to our society, it's censorship meant to be helpful to Disney's profitability. Regular people didn't make this decision, some corporate board of directors made this decision. This could have been avoided if James Gunn had helped lead his fellow employees with star power to unionize Disney.

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Avalerion
Oct 19, 2012


I’m mainly concerned what this will mean for gotg3, could give it to whoever did thor ragnarok I guess? Dunno how much the director actually matters for these movies. Worst case scenario some of the actual actors decide to bail on it out of protest.

The tweets were tasteless (and worse, failed to be funny ) but since he didn’t target or harrass anyone in particular, whatever. Fair to call him out on it but anything more is an overreaction, especially given the timeframe.

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


I like how they had to dig up a deleted comment from a decade ago to get at Gunn. One only has to go back a few days or weeks to find garbage from Thernovich and his ilk that should get them fired (if they had real jobs).

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Thanks for making a thread for this, Hat Thoughts.

I've been seeing a lot of discussion around what should be considered in and off-limits for comedy, with a lot of people saying that Gunn/Harmon/et al are victims of their own fault by going outside of the normal boundaries of taste. I fundamentally disagree with that; I think that gallows humor is a vital necessity to the human experience. If we can't laugh at the worst poo poo in the world every now and then, the world would be an unbearable place to live in.

Anyway.

I was flipping through cable tonight and came across Deadpool on FX. I was struck by an exchange that takes place between Wade Wilson and his girlfriend Vanessa, when they first meet:


So that's straight-up an incest/surprise sex joke in one of the most successful comic book movies released by a major studio in the past couple of years. To me, Gunn's remarks may have been less clever (waaaaaay less clever), but they fall within the same shock shtick. Context matters, and that I worry may be getting a little blurry on that concept. Like if you disagree with me and feel that Gunn and Harmon are a different case, I'm willing to hear your take, but to me that's a really fine line.

Conan made a brony pedo joke on this year's comic con show. The joke ended with something like: "adults that shouldnt be next to children"

Anyone would know what it implies. And anyone with no brain worms can see it was a political motivated attack on gunn's persona.

Btw, they tried to dig some dirty joke tweets on lloyd kaufman and it was hilarious. Like...he is literally troma.

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This isn't Hollywood, but I can't help but feel that the idea started with Arenanet firing two devs (Summary here: naked teen boy pic). While I don't think anyone had the intent to get these two devs fired, it did show how conservative companies were to preserve the fragile feelings of their (mostly male) fanbase, even when those devs weren't necessarily acting as representatives of Arenanet, to the extent that talking poo poo back to someone being a dick is grounds for termination?

I guess the root question I have is why the gently caress does anyone use Twitter, especially when it expressly offers preferential service and protections to Nazis?

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This isn't Hollywood, but I can't help but feel that the idea started with Arenanet firing two devs (Summary here: anh sex bao hoa). While I don't think anyone had the intent to get these two devs fired, it did show how conservative companies were to preserve the fragile feelings of their (mostly male) fanbase, even when those devs weren't necessarily acting as representatives of Arenanet, to the extent that talking poo poo back to someone being a dick is grounds for termination?


Ugh, I remember that. And right after the devs where fired they went on the hunt of more devs to get fired (mostly female, they targeted a lot of them). Thankfully they stumbled with some companies who sided with their workers and others who just laughed and threw their complains to the trashcan.

Unless filming companies don't show some cojones to not immediately side with people who are clearly not concerned about anything and just wish to harm an individual , there's gonna be a lot more of drama on the near future.

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Nobody cares about - or has even heard of - Arenanet.

Sort of correct, because the Arenanet thing wasn't about the game, it was about a woman talking back to a man.

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Jun 9, 2009

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I like how they had to dig up a deleted comment from a decade ago to get at Gunn. One only has to go back a few days or weeks to find garbage from Thernovich and his ilk that should get them fired (if they had real jobs).

This is a guy who proudly supports Trump, Roy Moore and Alan Dershowitz. The fact that anyone buys his "pedophile hunter" schtick just proves how loving stupid his fanbase is.

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Sort of correct, because the Arenanet thing wasn't about the game, it was about a woman talking back to a man.

No it loving wasn't. Price getting fired was about a Arenanet employee public attacking a Streaming Partner (who had enough of a partnership that he had a NPC in the game)/customers after he had tried to have a polite conversation with her after she did a AMA.

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Sep 11, 2001



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I like how they had to dig up a deleted comment from a decade ago to get at Gunn. One only has to go back a few days or weeks to find garbage from Thernovich and his ilk that should get them fired (if they had real jobs).

At least 1 of the tweets was from after he was hired to do GotG 1 in Sep 2012. A few more are from 2011 and 2012.

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Feb 15, 2012

Unlike me, many of you have accepted the situation of your imprisonment, and will die here like rotten cabbages.

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Thanks for making a thread for this, Hat Thoughts.

I've been seeing a lot of discussion around what should be considered in and off-limits for comedy, with a lot of people saying that Gunn/Harmon/et al are victims of their own fault by going outside of the normal boundaries of taste. I fundamentally disagree with that; I think that gallows humor is a vital necessity to the human experience. If we can't laugh at the worst poo poo in the world every now and then, the world would be an unbearable place to live in.

Anyway.

I was flipping through cable tonight and came across Deadpool on FX. I was struck by an exchange that takes place between Wade Wilson and his girlfriend Vanessa, when they first meet:


So that's straight-up an incest/surprise sex joke in one of the most successful comic book movies released by a major studio in the past couple of years. To me, Gunn's remarks may have been less clever (waaaaaay less clever), but they fall within the same shock shtick. Context matters, and that I worry may be getting a little blurry on that concept. Like if you disagree with me and feel that Gunn and Harmon are a different case, I'm willing to hear your take, but to me that's a really fine line.

There are incest/surprise sex jokes and there are incest/surprise sex jokes though. I think there is a difference between two actors performing material written for them, reviewed and edited by however many people and in which they punch up positioning themselves and our sympathies with them as victims. Versus a guy, whether playing a bit or not, on his own making solo public statements in which he jokes about being the molester. For me that is the context you're talking about, and yeah it does matter.

Like gallows humour made by the person powerless to prevent their hanging and seeing some morbid element of humour in their plight is quite different from some dude setting up a rope in a tree and laughing and joking whilst he hangs himself some... people... and audiences quite understandably will react differently to the two situations.

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Feb 29, 2008

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I keep seeing people around here discussing what kind of jokes are "off limits" or "over the line" and it's just completely irrelevant. Comedy is subjective, when you're a comedian you WILL offend people, there's no way around it. Most people who make their living in comedy seem to understand that certain areas(surprise sex, pedophilia) are more likely to offend than others, and they either stay away from those areas or they don't.

The two people we're here talking about are both public figures who make their living as comedy writers. They knew the score, they knew that what they were saying was offensive because fifi la fume porn they were going out of their way to be that way.

Ask Gilbert Gottfried about this. He made a joke about tsunami victims and lost a lucrative ad deal. But that's his way of life, he's a dirty comedian. He shrugged his shoulders and moved on, he found work elsewhere just like these two guys will.

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Sep 14, 2007

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The Aflac thing was genuinely funny, I gotta say. It would be like if Neil Hamburger ended up as Col. Sanders or something and he got in trouble for making jokes about how Crosby, Stills and Nash broke up over having killed a stripper.

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No it loving wasn't. Price getting fired was about a Arenanet employee public attacking a Streaming Partner (who had enough of a partnership that he had a NPC in the game)/customers after he had tried to have a polite conversation with her after she did a AMA.

Depends on who you ask, I suppose. I highly doubt everyone who jumped on that bandwagon was doing so to protect the feelings of said streaming partner suffering the sting of being called an "asshat," but whatever.

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This isn't Hollywood, but I can't help but feel that the idea started with Arenanet firing two devs (Summary here: free pics anal sex). While I don't think anyone had the intent to get these two devs fired, it did show how conservative companies were to preserve the fragile feelings of their (mostly male) fanbase, even when those devs weren't necessarily acting as representatives of Arenanet, to the extent that talking poo poo back to someone being a dick is grounds for termination?

I guess the root question I have is why the gently caress does anyone use Twitter, especially when it expressly offers preferential service and protections to Nazis?

I would say this particular phenomenon started a bit sooner.

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ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!


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Social media is a rot on our society, Disney let right wing pedophile trolls dictate their business decision, and Disney is slowly buying up all of the media creation outlets and can control their messaging and employees like poo poo because they're a billion dollar global corporation that ultimately answers to no one but their share holders.

Burn it all down comrades.

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Fart City
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Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!


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Versus a guy, whether playing a bit or not, on his own making solo public statements in which he jokes about being the molester. For me that is the context you're talking about, and yeah it does matter.

Fair point.

You raise an interesting question though, about how the Deadpool script went through a refinement process to fine-tune the joke. I think most of us would agree that Gunn’s twitter exploits were, generally speaking, pretty lazy. I wonder if the backlash would have been as severe if they were more... constructed, and less “weird kid yelling from the back of the classroom.” Like The Aristocrats is a tasteless joke told well, and that’s why it kind of found itself a solid corner in comedy to occupy.

And for what it’s worth, I agree with Basebf555: Gunn and Harmon absolutely knew what they were doing, and why they were doing it (to elicit a shock reaction). And I’m sure they will have no issue finding more work. My issues are with the circumstances in which the situation was instigated, and what the motives of the instigators behind it were.

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Adult Swim can’t go down this road with Harmon because if they do they’ll have to literally fire Justin Roiland into the sun.

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CelticPredator
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That Deadpool joke was in the earliest leaked draft I had which I think happened around 2009ish.

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And for what it’s worth, I agree with Basebf555: Gunn and Harmon absolutely knew what they were doing, and why they were doing it (to elicit a shock reaction). And I’m sure they will have no issue finding more work. My issues are with the circumstances in which the situation was instigated, and what the motives of the instigators behind it were.

I have the same issues, I hate the fact that Cernovich is getting a win out of this, and no I don't jade goody sex tape agree with Disney's decision. If it were my decision, I'd keep Gunn just to stick it to Cernovich, no other reason necessary. But that's just not how corporations operate, playing dumb about that isn't going to accomplish anything.

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CelticPredator
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That Deadpool joke was in the earliest leaked draft I had which I think happened around 2009ish.

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Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008



I'm of the opinion that Gunn should have been taken to town for those jokes and that's that. Him getting fired at this point is just pandering to the alt-right (let's face it, just call them neo-nazis) outrage squad. Disney would have or should have known his twitter history when they hired him and they didn't care at the time. If they did, they wouldn't want someone with that kind of sense of humor working for them. Gunn says working at Disney changed him and since he has worked there, he hasn't make any garbage "jokes" like that, so maybe the guy did change. I'm taking the "wait and see" approach and if he doesn't do that any more now that he's not working there then freaking fantastic! Somehow having healthy skepticism of a man making pedophile jokes into his 40's being truly changed is a radical position.

I guess you can forgive and excuse someone for anything if they make something you like.

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The two people we're here talking about are both public figures who make their living as comedy writers. They knew the score, they knew that what they were saying was offensive because naked middle age woman they were going out of their way to be that way.

Extreme, edgy humor was en vogue in the 2000s, the only reason people like James Gunn, Dan Harmon, and Michael Ian Black are being singled out is because they're actively being singled out make up sex song now, with the knowledge that - as envelope-pushing comedians - they would have pushed the envelope just as hard during an era in comedy where they had to stand out from everyone else doing the same, giving them ample room to find a "smoking gun" that they're all depraved pedophiles and rapists or something.

"I don't know, if I make this post on Text-Message-LiveJournal, I might abruptly lose my job a decade from now when a right-wing rapist doesn't like what I think about a reality TV host after I stop making Troma movies and bill clinton's sex scandal PG Porn, work for Disney for six years, delete and apologize for all these jokes that just won't work in the future, and clean up my image with the knowledge that those days are behind me. I know the score, I won't post this."

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Ask Gilbert Gottfried about this. He made a joke about tsunami victims and lost a lucrative ad deal. But that's his way of life, he's a dirty comedian. He shrugged his shoulders and moved on, he found work elsewhere just like these two guys will.

So 2011 Gilbert Gottfried tweets about a tragic (and you know, free anal pain porn real) 2011 event and gets fired in 2011. Okay.

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LesterGroans
Jun 9, 2009

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Does anyone know if that Deadpool joke was in the earliest leaked draft around 2009ish?

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And? Extreme, edgy humor was en vogue in the 2000s, the only reason people like James Gunn, Dan Harmon, and Michael Ian Black are being singled out is because they're actively being singled out hilton sex video free now, with the knowledge that - as envelope-pushing comedians - they would have pushed the envelope just as hard during an era in comedy where they had to stand out from everyone else doing the same.

"I don't know, if I make this post on Text-Message-LiveJournal, I might abruptly lose my job a decade from now when a right-wing rapist doesn't like what I think about a reality TV host after I stop making Troma movies and sex film for download PG Porn, work for Disney for six years, delete all these jokes that just won't work in the future, and clean up my image with the knowledge that those days are behind me. I know the score, I won't post this."


So 2011 Gilbert Gottfried tweets about a tragic (and you know, emily 18 naked video real) 2011 event and gets fired in 2011. Okay, and?

It's a bad look for Disney, the hosed up big time and they look like hypocrites because those tweets have been out there for ten years and they're only just now doing something about it. But two things can be true at the same time. Disney is poo poo, but also Gunn exposed himself to this by making the jokes on Twitter. Yes, even ten years ago. Ten years isn't really a very long time.

My point in bringing up Gottfried is that he's an example of a comedian who has experienced this his entire career. He seems innocuous, and so he ends up in movies for kids or as a family friendly corporate mascot. Then he does his Gilbert thing and makes an offensive joke and people get riled up over it. Maybe he loses some work temporarily from it, but he just keeps going and keeps doing comedy.

This is the life of a comedian who lives on the edge doing that kind of material. It's why Gilbert Gottfried is respected by comedians, but it's something that I'm sure Gottfried himself would tell you has cost him plenty of money over the course of his career. But it's a choice, one he made about the route he wanted his own career to take. Gunn made a similar choice by posting those jokes on Twitter.

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