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Hummer Driving Faggot
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Online fraud is outpacing in-person credit card fraud, as it should because of the amount of transactions made online. So with chip reading hardware costing less than $20 and all credit cards required to have chips in them now, why can't I plug my USB card reader into my computer, then when it's time to buy something, enter a PIN to verify myself instead of entering my credit card number and CVV? It would make transactions require a piece of hardware, but wouldn't it dramatically reduce the amount of fraud as well as make stolen physical cards useless for online purchases?

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Tell me why online merchants don't use Chip and PIN?

Hummer Driving enjoyable human being posted:

It would make transactions require a piece of hardware

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Yeah, I kind of figured that would be a top answer. But since smart card certificates/PIN protection are already well understood and implemented, how much trouble would it be to implement the web side of it? RSA and other companies require who knows how many physical tokens for one time passwords. I guess credit card companies have done the math required for fraud versus how much they could save by giving customers a free card reader if they wanted one?

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Yeah, I kind of figured that would be a top answer. But since smart card certificates/PIN protection are already well understood and implemented, how much trouble would it be to implement the web side of it? RSA and other companies require who knows how many physical tokens for one time passwords. I guess credit card companies have done the math required for fraud versus how much they could save by giving customers a free card reader if they wanted one?
Why would you even do a card reader when you can just also require a password for verification that is never sent to the merchant? There's a visa implementation that does this.
I guess a password is still phishing vulnerable. Though a card reader could be too unless there's a USB interface directly to certificates, a site could man-in-the-middle the request.

You could send people a client certificate to install, and use that to verify transactions via the visa site. That would be relatively immune to phishing or man-in-the-middle-ing, and would not require hardware, and done right wouldn't even be significantly inconvenient.

My guess is credit card companies on average get to keep more from illicit transactions than they have to refund. Especially given that they often try to charge merchants for reversed transactions.

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Your avatar text really annoys me because whoever mistakenly thought that would be a good and sick burn used virii instead of viruses

Yeah, I think "viri" in Latin means "men."

On a more on-topic note, I don't really like the idea of using chips when doing transactions. It's like selecting the "credit" option instead of debit, which requires a password, even if it is just 4 numbers.

It invites fraud, and I don't understand why banks are cool with this.

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Jan 5, 2006



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My guess is credit card companies on average get to keep more from illicit transactions than they have to refund. Especially given that they often try to charge merchants for reversed transactions.

Beyond this, I'm pretty sure merchants are begging them not to make things more difficult. That "verified by VISA" password scheme was everywhere for while, and then it vanished, and I'm pretty sure it's because people would always forget passwords and get frustrated by the reset process, etc., causing a lot of abandoned checkouts. I'm guessing it's better to eat the cost of the occasional fraud than it is to piss customers off.

As to the actual question, what advantage would a hardware chip reader provide over a more standard two-factor authentication system like a code being sent to your cellphone, besides being more expensive and impossible to use if you're trying to buy stuff on your smartphone and didn't bring your reader doodad along?

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It would be nice if that were an option. It would also require every single online sales system to be reworked to be compatible with every single scanner and blah blah blah.

It's a nice idea.

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My guess is credit card companies on average get to keep more from illicit transactions than they have to refund. Especially given that they often try to charge merchants for reversed transactions.

It's actually cost of change > losses due to fraud.


That's why the US was slower adopting chips compared to the rest of the world : many, many outdated terminals and software needed changing.

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Mar 8, 2003


You'll likely skip this and go straight to client side tokenization (think Apple Pay or Google Pay) instead. They Payments Request API should help smooth a transition over as well: free private sex show

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It would make transactions require a piece of hardware, but wouldn't it dramatically reduce the amount of fraud as well as make stolen physical cards useless for online purchases?

My bank (Ulster Bank, Northern Ireland) did this years back - I don't know why, as most of the other online banking systems seem secure. You don't need to use it for purchases, but any money transfers etc. - stick the card in.
And if you lose or break it, they send you out another one free. I've been through about 6 so far!

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poo poo I live in a area where out of the three towns I live/travel to normally only a handful of stores accept the chip, rest are still swipe.

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It's hard to imagine something stupider than requiring online transactions to require loving hardware lmao

why yes, i'm going to plug a loving chip reader into my phone to shop on amazon

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It's hard to imagine something stupider than requiring online transactions to require loving hardware lmao

why yes, i'm going to plug a loving chip reader into my phone to shop on amazon
It's not quite *that* stupid with the bank ones, or maybe it's stupider - you have to put your card in the reader, type a code from the screen into the reader, then type a code from the reader onto your screen. (And type your PIN into the device at some point.)
So, y'know, it's better in that it doesn't require plugging something into a computer that could be up to anything, but it's worse in that you have type an extra 20 digits as part of the process of making a transaction.

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Online fraud is outpacing in-person credit card fraud, as it should because of the amount of transactions made online. So with chip reading hardware costing less than $20 and all credit cards required to have chips in them now, why can't I plug my USB card reader into my computer, then when it's time to buy something, enter a PIN to verify myself instead of entering my credit card number and CVV? It would make transactions require a piece of hardware, but wouldn't it dramatically reduce the amount of fraud as well as make stolen physical cards useless for online purchases?

this physical hardware in the chip does not improve the security of the transaction at all, it arguably makes it easier to skim credit cards because of how long it takes an ordinary chip reader to process the transaction.

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this physical hardware in the chip does not improve the security of the transaction at all, it arguably makes it easier to skim credit cards because of how long it takes an ordinary chip reader to process the transaction.

Contactless is the way to go IMO - the cards still have chip & pin if needed, but anything under £50 (I think, could be £40) just needs you to touch your card (or phone if it has NFC) to the reader - beep, green tick on the card reader screen, all paid for.
I can't remember the last time I swiped my card - it would be years ago.

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That's why the US was slower adopting chips compared to the rest of the world : many, many outdated terminals and software needed changing.

Because the rest of the world - well, Europe specifically I'm thinking of - didn't also have outdated terminals and software?

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Because the rest of the world - well, Europe specifically I'm thinking of - didn't also have outdated terminals and software?

Maybe they said, "Hey, this is a good idea. Let's change over to it and worry about the costs later."

I've encountered quite a few chip reader terminals in the US where the chip reader part has not been activated right away.

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I've encountered quite a few chip reader terminals in the US where the chip reader part has not been activated right away.

Even Taco Bell doesn't use the chip reader yet. Taco Bell!

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Because the rest of the world - well, Europe specifically I'm thinking of - didn't also have outdated terminals and software?

Size is a supposedly a factor as well as the US not having a unified authority to mandate he change, but I think the biggest reason is that the US has historically had weirdly low fraud compared to the rest of the world and if there isn't a monetary pressure on the companies then why change.

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May I also suggest that the US, one of the few countries to still use exclusively Imperial measurements, is historically speaking unwilling to embrace new ideas and standards regardless of their advantages?

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May I also suggest that the US, one of the few countries to still use exclusively Imperial measurements, is historically speaking unwilling to embrace new ideas and standards regardless of their advantages?

This is a fairly bold blanket statement.

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may i suggest, that the giant country made up of 50 mini countries that are comparable or bigger to an european countries might have a hard time making mass change???

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Apr 16, 2013

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I work in IT. I'm now picturing calls from my parents and friends "hey, I'm trying to buy something from Amazon I nudist teen beauty contest need tomorrow, and my $4 knock-off chip reader isn't working; could you help me?"

The real answer to why we don't do this is to reduce mass murder.

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I work in IT. I'm now picturing calls from my parents and friends "hey, I'm trying to buy something from Amazon I free british porn movies need tomorrow, and my $4 knock-off chip reader isn't working; could you help me?"

The real answer to why we don't do this is to reduce mass murder.

My bank issues a piece of hardware for online payments and there are no $4 knock-offs because you can only use the device issued by the bank. It never malfunctions, batteries last years and if it breaks they will send you a new one. You don't have to plug it into your computer but you can and then you don't have to type in the response manually.

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Two factor authentication is more secure.

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may i suggest, that the giant country made up of 50 mini countries that are comparable or bigger to an european countries might have a hard time making mass change???

Russia also uses chip readers. In fact they invented their own system.

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Russia also uses chip readers. In fact they invented their own system.

Russia? The country with less than half th population of the United States? Concentrated in a smaller area? That Russia?

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Russia's about twice the landmass and has a more spread out population there, bucko.

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American exceptionalism: A nation too large and yet too small; too diverse but also too homogeneous; too urban and yet too rural; always unready to adopt any changes or accept any critique.

Real talk: Incidence of credit card fraud in the US is triple the global average, largely due to a lax attitude by government authorities. An estimated $200 billion is lost each year to such fraud in the US. Merchants and card companies are liable to reimburse losses when they are discovered, though in reality it can be quite difficult to recover your money. Furthermore any incidental costs related to protecting yourself from further fraud are yours alone. But card issuers aren't going to discourage customers from using their products by unilaterally implementing security reforms (look at American Express) so it's important to adopt industry wide reformat via governmental reform.

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But card issuers aren't going to discourage customers from using their products by unilaterally implementing security reforms (look at American Express) so it's important to adopt industry wide reformat via governmental reform.

What I don't understand is that chip and PIN is much easier for the customer. Like, consider at a restaurant: the server must bring over the pin pad and your credit card never leaves your sight, instead of the server taking it away and then bringing it back later with a little slip of paper (that you must manually calculate a tip on, not that it should be much of a challenge). father daughter oral sex And they get to charge merchants for new equipment! It's win-win!

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But card issuers aren't going to discourage customers from using their products by unilaterally implementing security reforms
Our only hope is some sort of Google/Apple payment victory, but they're always so busy improving things by replacing them with even 'better' things that nothing ever lasts long enough to catch on.

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Russia's about twice the landmass and has a more spread out population there, bucko.

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Yeah, I kind of figured that would be a top answer. But since smart card certificates/PIN protection are already well understood and implemented, how much trouble would it be to implement the web side of it? RSA and other companies require who knows how many physical tokens for one time passwords. I guess credit card companies have done the math required for fraud versus how much they could save by giving customers a free card reader if they wanted one?
Credit card hardware is generally kind of expensive. Even the lower-end plug-into-phone card readers are generally going to start out at around $100 that I've seen.

I'm not even sure how personal card readers attached to a computer would work with regard to PCI-DSS security either.

Source: I work for a huge credit card processor.

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Mar 16, 2007

"When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."



Grimey Drawer

Hi I got high and was thinking about this question last night in bed because I'm a moron who can't leave her work at work and also I'd drunk a lot. Anyways, slightly more background, I'm an internal technical writer and operations trainer for an international credit card processor.

Encryption is another area where this would be an issue. With EMV/chip, encryption is a big deal for the obvious reasons. With the company I work for, when a merchant needs equipment from us, the readers/PIN pads that are sent out are injected with encryption keys that mean they will classic free porn video only work for our company. My assumption is that the other large processing companies do things the same way, for the simple reason of wanting to make sure merchants stay with them instead of loving off to a competitor. To my knowledge from talking with the guys at work on the development/coding/security side, each individual card-backing bank can/does also have their own encryption differences, though I really know very little about this because it's not an area I speak to. I don't know at which point in the process it comes into play.

So you'd have to have multiple people signing off on this basically - the merchants, the processors, the card-issuing banks, and the card brands themselves, leaving out the customers themselves going for this as something they consider (rightly or wrongly) to be safe as well as economical. Then you have to actually make the coding and technology happen and try to get the equipment out to enough people that it pays back the cost of development (and because this is the financial industry let's not lie, make a profit). Considering that the relationships up and down that line can be contentious at the best of times thanks to the myriad ways in which everyone fucks everyone else below them on the totem pole, and occasionally takes a stab at loving the people above them, agreement on something that large that is such a change in How Things Work is extraordinarily unlikely unless it's a unilateral decision from above that everyone has to either agree to or stop taking credit cards.

The fighting upwards along that line just to get EMV equipment and capability to merchants in the US was va sex offender registery extraordinary. Multi-year effort requiring mandates and liability shifts on chargebacks from the card brands, and in 2018 merchants are still dragging their feet on it and getting pissier because the breaks on pricing and whatnot that the processors gave as an initial incentive have mostly gone away if you didn't do what you should have, at least that I know of.

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Jul 17, 2007


Here in Norway (so yes, way smaller, not comparable, etc..) we have this neat thing called BankID , it started out being just a universal one time code generator you could use for logging into any online bank, but now you can use it to confirm credit and debit card charges online, logging in to most government sites (taxes, health stuff etc) and they stopped requiring hardware a long time ago. Now I just get a passphrase on my phone, and confirm by entering my personal pin on there.

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U think the lil tiny towns and poo poo have chip card readers? Lmao

Probably? Butt gently caress nowhere small town canada managed to do it?

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man whos arguing in good faith: AKSHULLY you'll find russia is very spread out which is why its very impressive all those spread out little villages have chip readers. god bless putin. god bless communism

As we all know communism begins when it becomes easier for people to pay for stuff.

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