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Hummer Driving Faggot
Sep 23, 2004


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This can probably be answered by people in the industry like Tendai.

Smart card readers are now at the 10 dollar price point. What do industry provided hardware do that these readers don't? If it's reading data off a chip, couldn't off the shelf hardware accomplish that task even if proprietary software did other pieces of the transaction process?

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Aug 7, 2004

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Encryption and verification.

The card won't share its information with a terminal unless it is guaranteed that the terminal is secure and under the control of the card processor.

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Encryption and verification.

The card won't share its information with a terminal unless it is guaranteed that the terminal is secure and under the control of the card processor.

Would there not be a way to accomplish the same thing with software? Like the card won't share its details if it hasn't made a secure connection to the processor's servers or something?

I don't know how any of this works.

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Would there not be a way to accomplish the same thing with software? Like the card won't share its details if it hasn't made a secure connection to the processor's servers or something?

I don't know how any of this works.
Not a card person but a software person.
I assume the premise is, if you try to do it the way you suggest, someone could just tell the card "hi, I'm a secure connection, give me your details".

By having a chip, you probably don't ever transmit the card details (if they've done it sensibly) - instead you tell the chip "please sign this transaction which is itself signed as valid by the central server" and the chip goes "yeah, that looks valid against the server public key that I know, now I too have signed it with my private key that was never revealed, here you go" and the terminal goes "hey server, here is the transaction signed by the chip on this card" and the server goes "yup that looks valid against the card's public key, we're good here."

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Not a card person but a software person.
I assume the premise is, if you try to do it the way you suggest, someone could just tell the card "hi, I'm a secure connection, give me your details".

By having a chip, you probably don't ever transmit the card details (if they've done it sensibly) - instead you tell the chip "please sign this transaction which is itself signed as valid by the central server" and the chip goes "yeah, that looks valid against the server public key that I know, now I too have signed it with my private key that was never revealed, here you go" and the terminal goes "hey server, here is the transaction signed by the chip on this card" and the server goes "yup that looks valid against the card's public key, we're good here."

If you can manually type in credit card information (number, expiration, CV) online, then why couldn't you do the same thing with a card reader that doesn't belong to a processor?

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If you can manually type in credit card information (number, expiration, CV) online, then why couldn't you do the same thing with a card reader that doesn't belong to a processor?
Yes, the old way still existing completely invalidates any and all the security of the new way (except that the credit card company might be more likely to flag old-school transactions as likely fraud).

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Tendai
Mar 16, 2007

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Encryption and verification.

The card won't share its information with a terminal unless it is guaranteed that the terminal is secure and under the control of the card processor.
More or less this, to my knowledge. I will fully admit that the technical side of things is a hazy understanding for me, but I know that terminals are specifically encrypted to work with a given processor's platform, so I'm really not sure how it would work with individual ones per consumer rather than per business.

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Hippie Hedgehog
Feb 19, 2007

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Beyond this, I'm pretty sure merchants are begging them not to make things more difficult. That "verified by VISA" password scheme was everywhere for while, and then it vanished, and I'm pretty sure it's because people would always forget passwords and get frustrated by the reset process, etc., causing a lot of abandoned checkouts. I'm guessing it's better to eat the cost of the occasional fraud than it is to piss customers off.

As to the actual question, what advantage would a hardware chip reader provide over a more standard two-factor authentication system like a code being sent to your cellphone, besides being more expensive and impossible to use if you're trying to buy stuff on your smartphone and didn't bring your reader doodad along?

Online merchants in Sweden, use MasterCard SecureCode and Verified by Visa. As implemented by banks here, they do not use a password but instead have either SMS verification codes that go to your phone, or use the locally issued electronic soft token "bank-ID".

My point is, if your bank wants to improve security using 2-factor authentication, going the route of a chip reader would be a lot more expensive than either of these two options based on mobile phones.

The down side is, anyone who isn't able to receive an SMS is also unable to shop online. Which I'm fine with if it stops scammers from buying poo poo with my money. Basically, receiving SMS is a lower bar to pass than getting on the Internet to do shopping.

Another bank (Nordera) did try the card reader thing. They issue use the card reader and customers have to use chip&PIN to access the online bank as well as to do purchases. I think that's still in use but the other banks never picked it up (presumably because it's expensive and less user friendly).

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Online merchants in Sweden, use MasterCard SecureCode and Verified by Visa. As implemented by banks here, they do not use a password but instead have either SMS verification codes that go to your phone, or use the locally issued electronic soft token "bank-ID".

My point is, if your bank wants to improve security using 2-factor authentication, going the route of a chip reader would be a lot more expensive than either of these two options based on mobile phones.

The down side is, anyone who isn't able to receive an SMS is also unable to shop online. Which I'm fine with if it stops scammers from buying poo poo with my money. Basically, receiving SMS is a lower bar to pass than getting on the Internet to do shopping.

Another bank (Nordera) did try the card reader thing. They issue use the card reader and customers have to use chip&PIN to access the online bank as well as to do purchases. I think that's still in use but the other banks never picked it up (presumably because it's expensive and less user friendly).

Thanks for the info. I guess that makes sense because chip and PIN predated the explosive use of SMS by a little bit.

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Holyshoot
May 5, 2010


Why can't we use an extra peripheral for making purchases says a guy who Cleary doesn't work IT support.

People are God drat idiots when it comes to anything computer related. They will gently caress this up or download some malware / hack that will compromise it anyways.

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Here in Norway (so yes, way smaller, not comparable, etc..) we have this neat thing called BankID , it started out being just a universal one time code generator you could use for logging into any online bank, but now you can use it to confirm credit and debit card charges online, logging in to most government sites (taxes, health stuff etc) and they stopped requiring hardware a long time ago. Now I just get a passphrase on my phone, and confirm by entering my personal pin on there.

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Denmark has a similiar system (NEMID) although it's actually a card you get in the mail that has about 150 one time codes on it. It's used for all online banking and government services. A new one is sent automatically when a certain amount of those codes are used up. On the plus side, it's reasonably secure so long as you don't lose your wallet and a phone isn't required.

However it isn't used by any private online merchants (to my knowledge) likely because it would use the codes up too quickly. I still like it, because we're basically using WW1 spy technology to log in. One-time pads are neat.

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PT6A
Jan 5, 2006



Smartphones and a basic (slow but unlimited) data plan really need to be considered a human right at this point, and made available to people who can't afford them. To do otherwise will increasingly cut off a segment of the population from participation in society and modern life.

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mystes
May 31, 2006



SMS is loving terrible for security. Nothing should use SMS for authentication. Give people totp devices if you have to but don't use SMS.

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PT6A
Jan 5, 2006



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SMS is loving terrible for security. Nothing should use SMS for authentication. Give people totp devices if you have to but don't use SMS.

Smartphones can use TFA apps that aren't SMS based.

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mystes
May 31, 2006



I thought people were complaining about requiring smartphones being unfair to poor people and saying SMS was better.

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Hippie Hedgehog
Feb 19, 2007

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A totp device or app is fine for simple logins or card payment confirmation, but it is not sufficient for online banking to be secure. It does nothing to prevent someone from MITM-ing y session and altering your requests, to transfer your money to their own account. This con is easily set up using a fake bank login page and a phishing email.
Each payment request needs to be signed by the customer so they can't be altered.

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mystes
May 31, 2006



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This con is easily set up using a fake bank login page and a phishing email.
Each payment request needs to be signed by the customer so they can't be altered.
On computers U2F (if banks ever adopt it) solves phishing by being tied to domains.

Having individual payment requests be signed would be pretty hard to implement practically (the whole flow for payment processing would have to change completely).

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SMS authentication for logging into bank accounts will be banned sometime in the next two years in the EU. Don't know if the same applies to card transaction confirmations, but if people have to use an app or device anyway, it makes sense to use those for confirmations as well.

Plenty of banks already use those for 3dSecure transactions.

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Feb 19, 2007

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Having individual payment requests be signed would be pretty hard to implement practically (the whole flow for payment processing would have to change completely).

It's what every bank does in Sweden so it's probably not as difficult as you think. (I'm not intentionally bragging about how my country solved every imaginable online banking problem, it's just people keep saying those particular things we already did are hypotheticals.)

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May 31, 2006



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It's what every bank does in Sweden so it's probably not as difficult as you think. (I'm not intentionally bragging about how my country solved every imaginable online banking problem, it's just people keep saying those particular things we already did are hypotheticals.)
Can you link to information about how it works? I tried to search but since I don't know what it's called I'm having trouble finding it.

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Feb 19, 2007

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Can you link to information about how it works? I tried to search but since I don't know what it's called I'm having trouble finding it.

Dunno how this page does in Google Translate but knock yourself out.
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mystes
May 31, 2006



That seems pretty well thought out. The U.S. couldn't even be bothered to require use of pins for in-person payments .

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Hippie Hedgehog
Feb 19, 2007

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Oh, I found it, it's the type called Challenge-response token here.
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When authorizing a payment or transfer, the challenge from the server is the amount transferred. First time to a new recipient, the challenge is the account number.

It's not watertight but it's not trivially broken with a MITM like one-time passwords off a scratch card are.

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