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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

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My apologies, I'd never heard of the guy and assumed he was a normal Catholic guy.

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Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


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yeah but he claims to have converted to orthodoxy, notwithstanding that his views on everything (like demons, in the link) are non-Orthodox

He started pit a Methldist, then converted to Catholocism, and then to Orthodoxy.

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Cnidario
Mar 22, 2013



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yeah but he claims to have converted to orthodoxy, notwithstanding that his views on everything (like demons, in the link) are non-Orthodox

I’m tempted to think a lot of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy a la Dreher are really Trad Caths who want sexier liturgy, beards, and gold leaf

not to mention more lax teachings on birth control

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Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


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I’m tempted to think a lot of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy a la Dreher are really Trad Caths who want sexier liturgy, beards, and gold leaf

not to mention more lax teachings on birth control

He says he converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism because of the sex abuse scandal and the "lavender mafia" behind it.

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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He says he converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism because of the sex abuse scandal and the "lavender mafia" behind it.
he also believes there is a secret conspiracy of trans people

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ThePopeOfFun
Feb 15, 2010


I wonder, did the Church evaluate this person with their criteria of universal knowledge of language, secret knowledge, etc. or was it Dreher’s own Benedict Option community?

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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I wonder, did the Church evaluate this person with their criteria of universal knowledge of language, secret knowledge, etc. or was it Dreher’s own Benedict Option community?
It can't be Dreher's own community because the people he's talking about are Catholic, not Orthodox--we don't prohibit divorce so a woman wanting a divorce wouldn't be seen as being possessed. We also don't think demons can harm you unless you believe they can, or possess you without your consent (although getting addicted to drugs makes things worse).

From the Orthodox point of view, Dreher is spreading misinformation that, by making people believe they can be harmed by demons, increases the odds that they will. From the Catholic point of view, since they have strict formal criteria for determining whether or not someone is possessed, this family is making things worse by failing to follow up the allegation.

No matter which religion you are, these are half-educated people who have just enough knowledge to put themselves in danger. daddy daughter sex pics The husband is spiritually abusing the wife and now she's been driven insane by it.

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Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


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he also believes there is a secret conspiracy of trans people

Involved in the sex abuse coverup? Or is this an unrelated secret conspiracy of trans people?

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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Involved in the sex abuse coverup? Or is this an unrelated secret conspiracy of trans people?
Unrelated. I thinnk we and the gay people divide conspiracies between us. This conspiracy is to stare at cis people in line for the movies and say rude things to them.

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StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.






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Unrelated. I thinnk we and the gay people divide conspiracies between us. This conspiracy is to stare at cis people in line for the movies and say rude things to them.

"ugh can't you guys handle the plot to force Scary Urban Thugs to move into the suburbs? we're still busy with this bathroom thing"

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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"ugh can't you guys handle the plot to force Scary Urban Thugs to move into the suburbs? we're still busy with this bathroom thing"
we'll have to ask (((them))), my checks from soros have been in arrears lately

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Spacewolf
May 19, 2014


You get checks? Man, the LGBT conspiracy has it good! My conspiracy only gets a 10% discount at TGI Friday's!

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


yeah but that water isn't going to flouridate itself

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Caufman
May 7, 2007



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You get checks? Man, the LGBT conspiracy has it good! My conspiracy only gets a 10% discount at TGI Friday's!

I get vouchers for free food at PopeYes.

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Pellisworth
Jun 20, 2005

I'm a horse of a different color


Rod Dreher writes ridiculous sex and trans-panic articles, his schtick is to start off with "this is a totally real thing that happened to a friend of mine" and then tell an absurd story.

HEY GUNS mentioned his transphobic movie theater story, where a mother and her teenage son are harassed by a gang of trans people while standing in line. The story starts by describing how for his birthday, the teenager wanted to go to the movies with his mom. Which is a totally normal thing teenage boys do for their birthday. Sure thing, Rod!

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Cnidario
Mar 22, 2013



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Rod Dreher writes ridiculous sex and trans-panic articles, his schtick is to start off with "this is a totally real thing that happened to a friend of mine" and then tell an absurd story.

HEY GUNS mentioned his transphobic movie theater story, where a mother and her teenage son are harassed by a gang of trans people while standing in line. The story starts by describing how for his birthday, the teenager wanted to go to the movies with his mom. Which is a totally normal thing teenage boys do for their birthday. Sure thing, Rod!

His Benedict Option book is full of this stuff. Hey, Somebody who comments on my articles told me that their kids’ elementary school is making them accept trans eight year olds!

It’s patently absurd.

Also, lol @ accusations of a ‘lavender mafia.’ I’m not one to judge, but it seems like an awfully shallow reason to convert

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Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013



As a Catholic, I don't understand supposedly religious people getting mad at trans/cis/etc. When I'm judged, do I want to say, "I wasn't sure if I should love them as my brother or as my sister, so I just treated them like poo poo instead," or would I rather say, "I wasn't sure if I should love them as my brother or as my sister, so I just treated them as my brother and my sister."

Other people's private parts just doesn't seem like something I should concern myself about.

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happyphage
Apr 27, 2011


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Other people's private parts just doesn't seem like something I should concern myself about.

Thanks, I really appreciate this sentiment, because the sheer amount of people that immediately have an opinion on LGBT issues that doesn’t concern them is just simply staggering

For example, when a coworker I hardly interact found out that I was in a long-distance relationship with another man specifically went out of her way to find me and lecture me on how I should start a polyamorous relationship so that “you can get hosed while you’re here” (her exact words)

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Caufman
May 7, 2007



Trans-phobia and queer-phobia in general confuses me, too. I guess all I can say is that almost everything related to sex and sexuality triggers all sorts of strong feelings in people. Sometimes it's attracting, sometimes divisive, and sometimes contradictory. People may go to violence over it.

Disgust is talked about as playing a big role, and how that manifests so differently in people is a mystery to me.

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Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Having had some experience with bigotry from the inside, as it were, I think I can answer that.

It really comes down to insecurity. In particular, I think it relates to how people orient themselves towards strength and vulnerability, happiness and suffering.

The idea that the world rewards us for our merits (even before worrying about what is or isn't meritorious) is a fragile one, because it isn't true. To defend the idea of a just world, then, you have to assign flaws to people who are suffering or unhappy in order to explain their suffering. This is incredibly important because if you cannot do this, you have no way of protecting yourself from suffering -- no amount of merit will save you.

If you are a generally happy and fulfilled person, this takes the form of defending what you have as justly earned, allowing you to deflect or ignore claims that you have more resources or power or authority than you deserve and should share. At any rate, to see suffering puts you on the defensive.

If you are a generally unhappy person, this takes the form of internal self-loathing that most people can't tolerate for very long. You need some hope that by self-improvement you can suffer less, which you will probably cling to, and the sight of someone who (from your perspective) is flawed in the same ways you are being happy or successful despite this will be hideous to you, because it suggests that what is wrong with you is even more immediate and personal, and perhaps incurable. Again, to see suffering (your own or others!) puts you on the defensive; you want to distance yourself from it any way you can.

The practical upside of this is that a society which believes in the "just world" fallacy will psp porn vid downloads have to explain oppression in terms of moral or meritocratic failings of the oppressed. On top of that, the more intimately your personal strength, ability, and merit tie into your identity, the more defensive you will be.

If, for example, your idea of manhood is completely bound up in domination (that you won't ever fully realize because other people have wills and agency), in being a material provider (that you often won't be able to be because capitalism is bullshit), and in never showing vulnerability (which is impossible because everyone is vulnerable) then the most terrifying thing you can imagine is oral sex for women being a woman. The next worst thing is being seen the way you see women.

So gay men are a threat to your identity because suddenly just being a man isn't enough by itself to put you in the "safe", happy, powerful category, and transgender people of either persuasion are a threat to your identity because they threaten to erase the category completely. And, crucially, maintaining the separation -- that you deserve to be happy because of who and what you are and others don't -- is easier than admitting the absolutely terrifying possibility that bad things just happen to people for no good reason and there's no surefire way to protect yourself.

The cure for all of this is recognition that the world really is terrifyingly unjust, that all of us are vulnerable, and that the best defense we have is to pull together, prioritizing the needs of the most vulnerable.

This is a theme that is common to leftist politics and to Christianity, and I think a big part of the wedge driven between the two (which wasn't the case only ~150 years ago) is the extent to which American Protestantism in particular married itself to the idea of a just world, and to a very mechanistic idea of how God interacts with and is reflected in that world, operating to reward good behavior with good outcomes.

(And of course, this isn't an exclusively Protestant problem by any means, because the idea leeched into the groundwater of American moral thought in general, and even as a confused atheist/deist hybrid or whatever I count as right now I still have to deal with my unexamined intellectual debt to this idea from time to time.)

All of which is why Job is one of the most important books in the Old Testament.

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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As a Catholic, I don't understand supposedly religious people getting mad at trans/cis/etc. When I'm judged, do I want to say, "I wasn't sure if I should love them as my brother or as my sister, so I just treated them like poo poo instead," or would I rather say, "I wasn't sure if I should love them as my brother or as my sister, so I just treated them as my brother and my sister."
and, you know, what if marina the monk is looking in on the judgement? or the saint that in the typicon in my church is commemorated under both their names, as "anastasia the patrician/anastasios the eunuch"

that would get awkward

totally spies drawn sex but seriously, thanks

edit: although there's some privilege at work here, since life seems to have been pretty ok for most trans men in the medieval and early modern periods, and for much of the modern period as well. i've read a life of a medieval person we would call a trans man and as soon as the other monks figure out what's going on after he dies their first response is admiration and happiness. that would not have happened with a trans woman, i think.

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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Thanks, I really appreciate this sentiment, because the sheer amount of people that immediately have an opinion on LGBT issues that doesn’t concern them is just simply staggering

For example, when a coworker I hardly interact found out that I was in a long-distance relationship with another man specifically went out of her way to find me and lecture me on how I should start a polyamorous relationship so that “you can get hosed while you’re here” (her exact words)
some people get weird when i tell them i am monogamous for religious reasons

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


i really think studying the 17th century has made me a better person, or at least a more resilient person, because at their best these are people who know deeply that fucking sex video clips the world is some bullshit and they live despite this

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HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Clear off, fatso, this is a respectable establishment





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Thanks Tuxedo Catfish, that was really insightful.

I really do wonder if a lot of homophobia and transphobia is rooted in misogyny. It's why trans women are loathed and hated in a different way to trans men. (not that I'm saying trans men have an easy time). On some level, to these bigots, a woman wanting to be like a man is understandable, but a man wanting to be like a woman is disgusting. Because men are greater and women are lesser.

Sorry for the language. I know trans women are women. Just trying to work out how these people think.

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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Apr 27, 2011


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some people get weird when i tell them i am monogamous for religious reasons

yeah, I get that a lot too

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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yeah, I get that a lot too
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Jun 20, 2005

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Thanks Tuxedo Catfish, that was really insightful.

I really do wonder if a lot of homophobia and transphobia is rooted in misogyny. It's why trans women are loathed and hated in a different way to trans men. (not that I'm saying trans men have an easy time). On some level, to these bigots, a woman wanting to be like a man is understandable, but a man wanting to be like a woman is disgusting. Because men are greater and women are lesser.

Sorry for the language. I know trans women are women. Just trying to work out how these people think.

I think it has a lot to do with ours being a patriarchal society and fear of emasculation. Trans women are treated differently than trans men because the former are emasculating themselves, giving up their male-ness to "become" a woman. Oh and of course they're doing it so they can use women's bathrooms and prey on young girls, if you're perverted enough to want to "become" a woman then it only makes sense you're also a pedophile or whatever.

Similarly, gay men are perceived differently than lesbians.

I guess I'm agreeing with you HopperUK. I should add that I don't hold it against any posters in this thread that have religious objections to LGBTQ stuff, obviously we disagree but that's fine! I think it's important to point out, however, that our society's general perception of trans women vs. men and gay men vs. lesbians is not the same. There are valid religious/moral aspects to the conversation, but there's also a TON of misogyny, patriarchy, fear of emasculation, etc.

edit:
basically, men doing things that are traditionally considered feminine or submissive is Very Bad
however, women doing masculine things or not doing feminine things is kinda just

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Tias
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my first boyfriend is a woman today, and holy hell did she get a nasty shock when she discovered how women are treated in society

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As a Catholic, I don't understand supposedly religious people getting mad at trans/cis/etc. When I'm judged, do I want to say, "I wasn't sure if I should love them as my brother or as my sister, so I just treated them like poo poo instead," or would I rather say, "I wasn't sure if I should love them as my brother or as my sister, so I just treated them as my brother and my sister."

Other people's private parts just doesn't seem like something I should concern myself about.

I hate to spoil it for you, but a huge number of Catholics have a huge problem with LGBT issues and try to justify it based on Genesis 1:28. The bit about 'be fruitful and multiply'.

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Thanks Tuxedo Catfish, that was really insightful.

I really do wonder if a lot of homophobia and transphobia is rooted in misogyny. It's why trans women are loathed and hated in a different way to trans men. (not that I'm saying trans men have an easy time). On some level, to these bigots, a woman wanting to be like a man is understandable, but a man wanting to be like a woman is disgusting. Because men are greater and women are lesser.

Sorry for the language. I know trans women are women. Just trying to work out how these people think.

Hitting the nail right on the head there, and I'm still somewhat convinced that you can trace it all the way back to the very foundations of the Church, given what we know about Roman attitudes towards women as well.

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Mar 28, 2010

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Ramakrishna Shakta theology on marriage / monogamy is, uh, highly culture dependent

he has a bunch of sermons directed ultra specifically at day to day concerns of Bengali Hindus, which are quite sensibly not included in the revised batch translated for foreign consumption, but interesting reading if you get through that and are still curious

for a Hindu guru, he's super subversive and nontraditional, though, and the gist as applied to monogamy is similar to the gist as applied to anything else: if polyamory is an experience that you genuinely think will enrich your soul, go ahead as long as you don't freakin' hurt anybody

The classic traditional Hindu moral life is one in which the elderly become basically monks in their old age / retirement age, and one of the ways Ramakrishna is subversive is that he takes that as more of a suggestion and a "eventually your incarnations will move in that direction, or you will organically decide you're done with the other stuff" concept than a strong moral injunction.

(reminder that Sri Ramakrishna, noted weirdo and major contributor to the philosophical underpinnings of modern Unitarianism, is the theological founder of my particular subset of my particular subset of Hindus)

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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

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I think it has a lot to do with ours being a patriarchal society and fear of emasculation.

I've long theorized that a major strain of male homophobia is fear of being treated the way women are treated.


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Caufman
May 7, 2007



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When one feels like they are often just a sinner and a stranger, it's nice to be only one of those things.

I also now work with an old man who is Greek Orthodox by marriage. I tell him I know someone who encourages folks to be Orthodox(ier).


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Having had some experience with bigotry from the inside, as it were, I think I can answer that.

That was an illuminating and commendable post. When you put it that way, suffering from both sides of bigotry is not alien to me, either =\

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May 25, 2008

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So the parliament of world religions was just held in Toronto, and I'm happy to say Heathens Against Hate (of which my blót guild is a signatory) came and held a baller lecture on inclusive heathenry!

This lady knows what's up:

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


let's all join together to excommunicate nazis

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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I also now work with an old man who is Greek Orthodox by marriage. I tell him I know someone who encourages folks to be Orthodox(ier).
we could all stand to be orthodoxier, that's what Spiritual Warfare means

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Here's the lecture itself, pretty good stuff, esp for people who are not appraised of the nazi situation within heathenry:

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


hegel grimoire trip report number 3: the lesser key of solomon.

this is very influential. crowley read it, the chaos magicians from the 70s read it, and what nobody says is that it teaches you how to summon infernal spirits (usually evil), spirits of the air (good or evil), and angels of the planets, hours, and zodiac (good)...who will teach you the kinds of things you learn in college. Astronomy, liberal arts, rhetoric, ethics, medicine, law.

is this just the world's most arduous correspondence course? online courses exist now! you do not have to summon a spirit with the body of a wolf, the wings of a griffin, the tail of a snake, and the head of a human being, who speaks one third truth and two thirds lies, to appear within your magic circle and then teach you engineering!

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also it's here that sigils start being sigils lauren london naked pictures of the spirit you're summoning, rather than a symbol of God that you show teen girls big cock to the spirit you're summoning in order to intimidate it.

edit: you can also summon your guardian angel into a crystal, so you can look at it

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Mr Enderby
Mar 28, 2015




I always liked the way Pratchett's wizards were just a bunch of crusty nerds.

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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I always liked the way Pratchett's wizards were just a bunch of crusty nerds.
for the same reason, i like how large portions of Lovecraft's work are about academia

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