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Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004

Delicious and Nutritious



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To clarify: I'm not rejecting Vigano's statement out of hand. I'm suspicious of it because it comes from a faction that thinks this whole scandal is about homosexuality, not clericalism (as he himself says).

Exactly. One wants to take allegations seriously, but this rather whiffs of a cleric forced into retirement for trying to bring the Church in on the side of the US political right trying to put a knife in the back of a Pope who has been making waves, and who doesn't seem to be agreeing that abuse is the result of The Gays.

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Spacewolf
May 19, 2014


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my religion is basically "sinners in the hands of an angry god" except instead of an angry god it's a compassionate buddha so allow me to say; it literally does not matter in my religion whether i piss on ronald regan's grave or not, and to be perfectly frank i think holding old white people whose politics murder people accountable for their actions after they die is fine

john mccain was a bad person. calling him a bad person who crashed three planes in vietnam and only got that far because he had a war hero daddy and if he hadn't been a pow he wouldn't have a career in politics does not become morally wrong just because he died. it was fine when he was alive and it's fine now that the old bastard is dead. this idea that someone dying means all of a sudden we have to pretend they weren't an incompetent soldier and an incompetent politician whose "maverick" persona was entirely fabricated is ridiculous. and yeah, when hillary and trump die i'm gonna make the same jokes about their sorry lilly white asses too

Can I be blunt? You are proving that: A. You have no decency or sense of propriety or timing; B. You are quite probably an insufferable rear end in a top hat in real life.

I mean, seriously, who does this? How obsessive and weird can you get? You think your politics excuses you from all social graces or politeness or really anything resembling not being an rear end.

What's funny is, I used to have sympathy for you, I used to write off the rough edges as a product of a poo poo situation. Now I'm wondering if maybe your situation isn't, at this point, basically of your own making.

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


How does acting like this hold him accountable? This man is dead: the same Judge is over him as over you. You can do nothing to him. The only effect your actions have is on yourself.

free vintage porn tubes 3 some porn pics HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at Aug 27, 2018 around 11:53

Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

i am genuinely against people whitewashing the legacies of people who, if they weren't american, would be considered war criminals. i think mentioning the fact that john mccain's true legacy was crashing planes, voting in lockstep with the republicans except for the few instances where he actually had personal experiences that gave him perspective (torture, his last minute health care vote), and reminding people that he voted for things like the patriot act, the invasion of iraq, and refused to vote for the healthcare reform act that he was involved in at every process of, and essentially doing his best to sabotage the entire time.

if saying "this dude sucked, and we all know none of you are grieving for him because you didn't know him personally" is somehow crossing a line, y'all need to like... get perspective on things.

and yeah i'm gonna say the same poo poo when bush kicks it and y'all wanna give that monster the decency of ignoring all his crimes after death.

btw hegel i neither believe in a soul nor a judge. karma's a process, not a person. what happens after death is a natural result of the actions we've taken in this and previous lifetimes, and is the accumulation of all our positive and negative karma. the only natural result in this fallen era is rebirth in hell, but because of amida's grace and compassion responding to his call and making the true nembutsu is the only way to be reborn in his pure land and actually be able to do the hard work of becoming buddhas. my religion had literal fascists promoting japanese war crimes so forgive me if i don't see calling out dead men's poo poo legacies as particularly foul in the grand scheme of things

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

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Can I be blunt? You are proving that: A. You have no decency or sense of propriety or timing; B. You are quite probably an insufferable rear end in a top hat in real life.

I mean, seriously, who does this? How obsessive and weird can you get? You think your politics excuses you from all social graces or politeness or really anything resembling not being an rear end.

What's funny is, I used to have sympathy for you, I used to write off the rough edges as a product of a poo poo situation. Now I'm wondering if maybe your situation isn't, at this point, basically of your own making.

oh no bad man died better not tell people he was bad man so his family and colleagues can pass off his legacy through rose colored lenses and have everyone think of him as a man who acted independently of his party, was a brilliant military mind, and was a compassionate conservative. what's that? you shouldn't give people an opportunity to whitewash his legacy and use him for future political gains simply because he's dead and has been dying for nearly a year? that's indecent! you can't speak ill of the dead! osama bin laden and hitler were saints because they died and it doesn't matter what they did in life! at least they fought communists!

your boner for the dead is ridiculous. wifebeaters are wifebeaters even if they die, torturers are torturers even if they die, and yes war criminals are war criminals even after death. john mccain was a bitch and he died like one

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Slimy Hog
Apr 22, 2008



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oh no bad man died better not tell people he was bad man so his family and colleagues can pass off his legacy through rose colored lenses and have everyone think of him as a man who acted independently of his party, was a brilliant military mind, and was a compassionate conservative. what's that? you shouldn't give people an opportunity to whitewash his legacy and use him for future political gains simply because he's dead and has been dying for nearly a year? that's indecent! you can't speak ill of the dead! osama bin laden and hitler were saints because they died and it doesn't matter what they did in life! at least they fought communists!

your boner for the dead is ridiculous. wifebeaters are wifebeaters even if they die, torturers are torturers even if they die, and yes war criminals are war criminals even after death. john mccain was a bitch and he died like one

You're being an rear end in a top hat Senju.

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

at least i didn't invade iraq and afghanistan and crash three planes in vietnam

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Slimy Hog
Apr 22, 2008



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this is normal to all liturgical religions that pray in big groups

Not sure if this was a joke or not, but I've only seen this happen in protestant churches; and that church ended up dying off because of the fighting that resulted.

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Slimy Hog
Apr 22, 2008



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at least i didn't invade iraq and afghanistan and crash three planes in vietnam

Don't cut yourself on that edge there.

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

legit are you all gonna let people try and whitewash george w bush's legacy when he dies because being dead makes you off limits? are you gonna correct people who talk about how he saved us after 9/11 by telling them he and his administration ignored intelligence indicating a plan to hijack planes and fly them into the world trade center? are you gonna sit quietly when people talk about how he painted dogs and said trump sucks and not mention him lying to the american people in order to invade iraq? are you gonna let people talk about how he had a great sense of humor and not mention the torture that became commonplace under his administration? are you gonna let people rehabilitate this war criminal's reputation because you gotta respect the dead, no matter how evil?

and did you extend the same courtesy to osama bin laden? sure he murdered thousands of people and helped fund wahabist terror but he died so you gotta be quiet about all the evils he did in life and focus on the good, for some god damned reason that no one seems to be able to articulate.

is john mccain's shithead daughter gonna go on the forums, check out the christianity thread, and then cry cause senju kannon's talking about how much her dad loving sucked? cause i got news for you; there's people saying worse things elsewhere on the forums and internet. all i'm doing is stating facts; he crashed planes, he voted to invade iraq and afghanistan, he voted for the patriot act, and he voted with his party more than most republicans. he was a lovely guy before he died and now that he's dead i'm going to do my best to not let people whitewash his legacy with this "maverick resistance" bullshit

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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and did you extend the same courtesy to osama bin laden?
Did I pray for his soul when I learned that he had died? I did.

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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009
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Senju, we went through this same nonsense when I expressed some admiration for Billy Graham when he passed away. Can we maybe institute a rule about not speculating on this kind of thing when public figures die?

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StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.






I mean I'm not a huge fan of McCain but I'd express that opinion in d&d or cspam not here

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Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


Here's the thing. I don't disagree with you about John McCain, for the most part. He certainly supported a lot of things I find bad and opposed thing I find good. He also did a bunch of stuff in his personal life I find troubling.

But I don't really know that this thread is the best place to debate McCain's legacy or to sing the "I'll Be Glad When You're Dead, You Rascal You" song. There are probably better places for that, even better places for that on the forum. I mean, head over to CSPAM. They're throwing a party, pretty much.

I think all you can really say here is that however we feel about Senator McCain, our judgement doesn't matter very much to him anymore, and if there is a soul or an afterlife, that would be what's concerning him now, and while there's a long tradition of putting your enemies in hell (as was talked about earlier here, Dante did it in Inferno, and it's a classic of Italian literature), I don't know how much good doing so in this thread does.

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

i mean the meat of the original post was "pope francis is getting ratfucked by a guy who tried to ratfuck him a few years back and was fired for it" but i added in "i love saying ratfuck as much as i love making john mccain crashing planes jokes" and people got maaaaaad even though he literally did crash tons of planes in vietnam, and then i just defended my statements and people got even more mad even though again; i have said nothing wrong, ever

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Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



I lurk this thread sometimes for when it discusses the cool bits about religion that get carefully concealed from kids in case they might actually find something interesting about it (e.g. the Song of Solomon, Orthodox priests look like wizards, Sergius and Bacchus the CONFIRMED BACHELOR saints), and on a totally unrelated note I also loudly and obnoxiously celebrated Margaret Thatcher's death and am still perfectly ok with this life choice


However, I did not see the need to celebrate Margaret Thatcher's death 3d family sex comics in here, the thread for making posts about liturgical Christianity (and wizards, and other Dungeons & Dragons-related topics), and I question why it seems to be so very vital for you to choose these particular people, and this particular place, to make these comments.

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Nov 25, 2012

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

because i'm a thread regular and i talk about politics a lot. i'm literally a political theologian. when i studied religion it was the ways in which religion influences politics and vice versa. it also just kinda... came up in the conversation? people were getting mad at me for making john mccain crashing planes jokes and yeah, as part of that discussion i mentioned margaret thatcher and what a piece of poo poo she was.

once again; the focus of my post was that francis is getting ratfucked by someone who tried to ratfuck him before. i mentioned that ratfucking is a hilarious politics thing, and i like saying it almost as much as i like saying john mccain crashed three planes in vietnam. people took offense at this "too soon" jab at the dead senator who voted to invade iraq which led to hundreds of thousands of dead iraqis, and i got annoyed that apparently making jokes about his terrible ability to fly planes is now sacrosanct because the dude died. i am legitimately annoyed at this culture that you "can't speak ill of the dead," because apparently what was once okay is now evil because the dude did what everyone is going to do eventually and died. it is not solely a christian conceit, but i think this thread demonstrates that it is very often a christian idea that the dead become holy once they die and you can no longer speak ill of them without causing some sort of grave "disrespect," and this is often used by right wingners to rehabilitate the legacies of genuinely hideous human beings and yeah, it is something that pisses me off. the idea that it's somehow in bad taste to put "ding dong the witch is dead" in the top ten the week thatcher died because we have to ignore the fact that her policies led to thousands of dead people because she's dead and dead people are holy figures who cannot be criticized is loving ridiculous and yeah, your posts about how it's "too soon" or "he's already faced judgement" or whatever is completely ignoring the reality that by allowing these bad faith actors to rehabilitate the legacy of these garbage human beings you're essentially an accessory to their future political goals, which is to further the ACTUAL legacy of these human trash piles.

these have political implications and so long as organizations like the united states council of catholic bishops has an entire department dedicated to lobbying congress then you're gonna have to deal with politics and religion being talked about in the same breath because guess what; they're basically the same thing

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CountFosco
Jan 9, 2012
IM WACKADOODLE JIMMY!!!

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Depends on what time period. That was me and I was referring to pre-1100. I was arguing against chernobyl kinsman, who had recently discovered the Latin Mass and kept calling me a religious liberal.

The text I quoted was from transvestite free porn videos Sayings of the Desert Fathers, which were written down in the 4th century:



How old is the man? How old is the boy? That story has me uneasy for reasons entirely unrelated to the whole sodomy thing. And it's a pretty questionable attitude to take in general. The idea that if God isn't striking someone down through divine wrath, then it's all good... I'm not so sure about that. Am I supposed to just give Joel Osteen, for example, a free pass because he isn't being burned by divine fire for his obvious heresy?

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Nov 8, 2009
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because i'm a thread regular and i talk about politics a lot. i'm literally a political theologian. when i studied religion it was the ways in which religion influences politics and vice versa. it also just kinda... came up in the conversation? people were getting mad at me for making john mccain crashing planes jokes and yeah, as part of that discussion i mentioned margaret thatcher and what a piece of poo poo she was.

once again; the focus of my post was that francis is getting ratfucked by someone who tried to ratfuck him before. i mentioned that ratfucking is a hilarious politics thing, and i like saying it almost as much as i like saying john mccain crashed three planes in vietnam. people took offense at this "too soon" jab at the dead senator who voted to invade iraq which led to hundreds of thousands of dead iraqis, and i got annoyed that apparently making jokes about his terrible ability to fly planes is now sacrosanct because the dude died. i am legitimately annoyed at this culture that you "can't speak ill of the dead," because apparently what was once okay is now evil because the dude did what everyone is going to do eventually and died. it is not solely a christian conceit, but i think this thread demonstrates that it is very often a christian idea that the dead become holy once they die and you can no longer speak ill of them without causing some sort of grave "disrespect," and this is often used by right wingners to rehabilitate the legacies of genuinely hideous human beings and yeah, it is something that pisses me off. the idea that it's somehow in bad taste to put "ding dong the witch is dead" in the top ten the week thatcher died because we have to ignore the fact that her policies led to thousands of dead people because she's dead and dead people are holy figures who cannot be criticized is loving ridiculous and yeah, your posts about how it's "too soon" or "he's already faced judgement" or whatever is completely ignoring the reality that by allowing these bad faith actors to rehabilitate the legacy of these garbage human beings you're essentially an accessory to their future political goals, which is to further the ACTUAL legacy of these human trash piles.

these have political implications and so long as organizations like the united states council of catholic bishops has an entire department dedicated to lobbying congress then you're gonna have to deal with politics and religion being talked about in the same breath because guess what; they're basically the same thing

Senju, we have repeatedly asked you to stop and I will ask you again. We don't really care that you're a political theologian, we just want you to stop stirring poo poo up.

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CountFosco
Jan 9, 2012
IM WACKADOODLE JIMMY!!!

John McCain did bad things but did that make him a bad man? Not for me to judge the essence of the man, although I feel free to judge his actions. I am obligated to love my enemy, which I am tempted to put McCain in the sphere of, but at the same time I feel a duty to remember that his errors were serious.

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Samuel Clemens
Oct 4, 2013

I think we should call the Avengers.



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John McCain did bad things but did that make him a bad man?

Well, yeah. Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't hope for his redemption though.

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Pellisworth
Jun 20, 2005

I'm a horse of a different color


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How old is the man? How old is the boy? That story has me uneasy for reasons entirely unrelated to the whole sodomy thing. And it's a pretty questionable attitude to take in general. The idea that if God isn't striking someone down through divine wrath, then it's all good... I'm not so sure about that. Am I supposed to just give Joel Osteen, for example, a free pass because he isn't being burned by divine fire for his obvious heresy?

I guess I read that more along the lines of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." He's saying he's not going to accuse/blame them, if God wanted to smite them, He could, He's the judge, not us.

Also I dunno about using "sodomy" here. Sodomy can have different meanings and it's not clear from the text what actually happened between the brother and the boy.

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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I guess I read that more along the lines of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." He's saying he's not going to accuse/blame them, if God wanted to smite them, He could, He's the judge, not us.

Also I dunno about using "sodomy" here. Sodomy can have different meanings and it's not clear from the text what actually happened between the brother and the boy.
I think CountFOsco was asking if it was surprise sex or abuse or not. In my headcanon this is two consenting adults, but this was written down probably centuries after it happened by the kind of people who collect the sayings of saints so this little scrap is all we got.

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Pellisworth
Jun 20, 2005

I'm a horse of a different color


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I think CountFOsco was asking if it was surprise sex or abuse or not. In my headcanon this is two consenting adults, but this was written down probably centuries after it happened by the kind of people who collect the sayings of saints so this little scrap is all we got.

Yeah and CountFosco has a fair point there, it's not clear what the ages or ability to consent are. The boy is a "demoniac" who came to be healed, is he able to consent in his condition? How old is the boy? We have an old man, monastic brothers, and a boy.

If it's surprise sex or abuse that paints a pretty ugly picture of things we're not supposed to accuse or blame people for. I choose to not read too much into it and take it more or less at face value, John the Persian is not going to accuse them of "sinning" (homosexual acts of some kind) because if God wanted, He could smite them and it's not our place to judge.

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docbeard
Jul 18, 2011

High marks for compassion, low marks for survival skills





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Speaking of family, I could use some prayers.

My dad is 87 and was diagnosed with pneumonia at the end of July. He got a chest x-ray for it, and they discovered he also had a massive tumor in his lung, which had metastasized to his liver, lymph nodes, and most internal organs already.

The pneumonia won't clear because the tumor is providing all sorts of protected areas to shield the pneumococcus bacteria and keep it safe. After 3 rounds of oral antibiotics, he spent a week at home where he could neither eat nor drink, and slowly degenerated and finally got to the hospital yesterday. He's now on fluids to fight dehydration, three or four rounds of IV antibiotics, and now can barely get out of the bed to go 10 feet to the bathroom with a walker and help from the PT. This man was vigorously working in his garden, pulling weeds and raising fences to fend off deer three weeks ago - and he hasn't even started on cancer treatments yet. We get to start on that once the pneumonia finally clears (if ever).

He's got an awfully long, steep road to climb if he's going to make it and I don't see how he will. I hope as ever for the miraculous healing hand of God, that he may survive this, but then he's 87 years old with cardiac problems - how much longer would he be expected to survive even without all this? We all must go eventually, but life is so precious, we want every instant of it here that we can get.

Anyway, this is a powerful group and I respect your faiths immensely. Please put John Moyer in Midland Michigan on your lists for a while. He's going to need all the help he can get. I'll post with news on his condition periodically.

I love all of you and thank you for the gift of yourselves and these threads.

Both you and your father are absolutely a part of my prayers right now.

There's a lot I could say about going through a loved one's suffering and probable last days, a thing I have far too much experience with, and ultimately it's all pretty meaningless, because it's always different and it always sucks.

I will say, because I wish someone had said it to me, that whatever you're feeling right now and as things go on, that's okay. There's no 'right' way to approach this stuff. In particular, don't be too surprised if there are times when it doesn't feel like you're "upset enough" or "sad enough"; that's pretty common, and it's okay.

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Pellisworth
Jun 20, 2005

I'm a horse of a different color


Re: John McCain and politics and stuff, I think it's just fine to discuss politicians and political stuff in this thread within reason. Religion is always going to be inextricable from politics. Though obviously we want to avoid getting too heated in here and there are other subforums devoted entirely to politics.

Senju has a valid point in that we shouldn't whitewash or be silent on someone's bad actions just because they're dead. I don't think this thread is trying to do that. John McCain did some bad stuff both personally and politically and he should be remembered for both the good and bad rather than just glowing obituaries of how he was a war hero and such.

But, why is McCain in the news? Because he died. If the headlines were about him proposing legislation that was Christianity-relevant, then sure, let's talk about that. Instead, we're discussing him because he died, and it seems in poor taste and not very germane to this thread.

I don't have any issue with speaking ill of the dead, what it feels like in this case is celebrating McCain's death which is rather gauche for the Christianity thread.

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Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

Namo Amida Butsu

again the main thrust of the post that started the derail was that francis was getting ratfucked by a guy who tried to ratfuck him, and i mentioned that i found the term funny and liked saying it as much as i like making "john mccain crashes planes" jokes. hegel did not like that i make those jokes, and then i brought up how he is a Bad Person who Killed People via his politics and that i don't buy into that crap, which then became its own discussion

i didn't come into the thread and say "john mccain dying is loving funny as hell" (it is tho) i came in saying francis is being ratfucked, which is a hilarious political term, and i like saying it as much as i like making john mccain crashing planes jokes. like excuse me for seeing someone telling me my soul is in danger for making jokes about mccain as an opportunity to defend talking poo poo about dead people who were poo poo in life. the intent of the original post i made that sparked the discussion was within the scope of the thread, and what happened afterwards was a result of people being mad about me making mccain crashing plane jokes. so like, you can say "that don't belong in this thread" all you want but the truth is i didn't just come in here and say "john mccain crashed three planes and yet only died once" i came in here saying "francis gettin ratfucked. ratfucked is funny. john mccain crashing three planes also funny" and rather than focus on ratfucking, both its application to the francis situation and as an actual term in politics, people focused on mccain. so like

context, i guess

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CountFosco
Jan 9, 2012
IM WACKADOODLE JIMMY!!!

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Well, yeah. Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't hope for his redemption though.

Eh, I think it's enough that we discern a person's actions as being bad, I don't think we need to make the leap to essentializing badness in a human being simply due to their bad actions. I know that some will say that if you say that a person is good but their actions are bad, then it increases the temptation to be lackadaisical on trying to alter their behavior but it makes more sense to me that you would be naked girls and toys more likely to stop someone from doing something bad if you thought that the person who was doing the bad thing was essentially good.

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Apr 27, 2011


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this is the Koschitzke family, which HEY GUNS tells me is an extremely East German name. they changed their name to "Kositzky" at Ellis Island because their name literally sounded like poo poo. they emphatically maintained that they were NOT POLISH.

this is from a while back but it's hilarious to me, as my German grandmother from Prussia had a surname of Kujawa and married couples sex games also adamantly maintained that she was NOT POLISH

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


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Eh, I think it's enough that we discern a person's actions as being bad, I don't think we need to make the leap to essentializing badness in a human being simply due to their bad actions. I know that some will say that if you say that a person is good but their actions are bad, then it increases the temptation to be lackadaisical on trying to alter their behavior but it makes more sense to me that you would be download paris hilton sex more likely to stop someone from doing something bad if you thought that the person who was doing the bad thing was essentially good.
I mean I think all human beings are essentially good

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happyphage
Apr 27, 2011


Grimey Drawer

also sidenote my agnostic boyfriend asked me the other day about what order he should read the Bible in, and I remember vaguely that folks here recommended an order at one time for those with no prior Christian knowledge - something about starting with Matthew, Mark or Luke (not John) and then going to Acts, I think? Does anyone here have a good order? It's tough for me as I'm not really trained in "teaching" Christianity and I'm a cradle Lutheran so I feel like I may not have the greatest insight into such matters

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Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


start at the beginning and skip ahead whenever it starts talking about genealogies

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Well, it may be getting worse.

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Jan 9, 2012
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Back to watching the youtube channel that's all about animal rescues for me.

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Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014



You want politics? Fine! Here's an icon of St. Gabriel of Samtavro, a monk from Georgia who was persecuted by KGB for burning a giant portrait of Lenin on Mayday.



Yes, it's Lenin snake (or snake Lenin). Hisssssssssssss.

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