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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



The Belgian posted:



This actually made me gasp out loud, from the very end of the prior thread. I attend a church that looks like it was built in the 1980s (because it was) and....

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Aug 14, 2006



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Aug 14, 2006



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Post more hats. Or maybe cats.

Okay, I did my part with a cat, someone needs to post a funny hat. (Like the one with the cross-topped crown where the cross folds down, or... really, any liturgically-enhanced head-item)

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Aug 14, 2006



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So I never got a reply to my e-mail, men caught having sex but Fr. Lenin (whose name I'm not redacting because I think it's cool that my pastor's given name is Lenin...) gave basically two homilies this morning. The one after the Gospel was about how the Mass is not our invention, how we can't read the newspaper instead of the Scripture, or sing our favorite songs instead of the Psalms (this is proof Fr. Lenin has been spared some of the parishes I've attended in the US), and how if he uses his own words instead of the Eucharistic Prayer he'll just be giving us bread, and that would be like starving us.

Then there were two intercessions relating to current events - one asking for strength for the church, one for healing for victims - and then after the announcements Father stood back up and read a very long speech, about as long as his homily was, about how he was sorry and ashamed on behalf of his brother priests, how we'd all been failed by his brother priests, how he was begging us for our prayers, and also how if we ever become aware of abuse "like that" we're to call the authorities, and if we tell him instead, he'll call 911 while we're still in his office.

It was very moving, and I don't free sex private chat think too many other people heard my three-year-old yelling "you no scold me, I scold you!" when I asked him to hush so I could hear.

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Aug 14, 2006



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I'm reading the Divine Comedy now for the first time. Just left Virgil behind to enter Paradise.

Re: the Pope Francis stuff...if Whispers In The Loggia is to be believed this is all related to the right-wing/conservative/"Cardinal Burke looks -stunning- in that cappa magna!" pushback against hot asian teen videos Amoris Laetitia.

As I put it to my husband, "The problem is that I find it entirely plausible that someone could say to Pope Francis that Pope Benedict hadn't given him a fair hearing, and, Pope Francis being interested in giving everyone a fair hearing..." and much of the document is, in theory, able to be verified independently, like what names had been suggested for which sees.

quote:

I added that it would be salutary if, for once, ecclesiastical authority would intervene before the civil authorities and, if possible, before the scandal had broken out in the press.

Ah, yes, that would have been salutary, indeed.

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Aug 14, 2006



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I am hoping that Viganò's document is a vicious slander because I genuinely don't know what I would do if it turned out that Pope Francis and half the Vatican had worked to restore a pedophilic cardinal despite knowing the crimes he had committed.

Would it be different if Pope Francis had merely believed him that he'd just shared a bed, to sleep, with some seminarians, and that the rest was slander? Because the problem we have is that every accusation has to be treated as if it were credible, and every credible accusation has to be treated as if it were proven, lest we look like we're "sheltering" somebody from consequences, right? It's free anal sex videoes hard to accept that a person you know well has done a bad thing, and it's harder when there seem to be so many allegations that surely watch free girl porn some of them must be false... and none of that would excuse or exonerate Pope Francis, should any of that document be accurate, but it would make it less horrifying.

The problem I'm having in hoping that the document is all about settling scores is that, while it's not at all unlikely that 14 yrs old sex some of the mentioned people are mentioned to smear their names, the only reason it would work is if some of the document was accurate, especially the central statement that Pope Francis knew that McCarrick shouldn't be trusted and didn't heed that knowledge. And if that part's accurate, it doesn't really matter how many others, uh, colluded, does it?

And then, if it's free tiny teen video not, we're back to the every-accusation-must-be-treated-as-credible problem: nobody's going to be satisfied no matter how this gets resolved.

(also, it's not spoken, so you're hoping it'd be a vicious libel )

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Aug 14, 2006



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it’s a ratfucking but the reason it’s effective is when you hear “the pope knowingly shielded a pedophile from consequences” your natural response is “yeah probably,” and then you think about it and you still say “yeah probably”

the piss tape of the holy see, though piss tape wasn’t ratfucking it was opposition research

My first reaction was "wait, what?!" and then I went "well, Simcha Fisher's linking to this, so it's not hairstyles for teen guys just some random crazy," and then I went "well, it's plausible that Pope Francis might be susceptible to "I've been misunderstood!" and it's plausible that Pope Benedict might have delegated too much and everybody knows Pope John Paul II was inclined to think every such allegation was slanderous... oh. oh thandie newton sex videos no," basically.

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Aug 14, 2006



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I'm out. I've deleted all my social media accounts, and this will be the last one.

The Seven Sorrows do bobby blake porn video not gently caress around. I cried the first time I attended Mass seeing Christ up on the cross, which I guess would be an embarrassing thing to happen to an ex-Calvinist. That went away after a few Sunday Masses. And then I started up with the Servite Rosary two years later and the tears immediately came back when I attended Mass. I'm a weird data scientist STEMlord, I have no idea what's going on with that.

Just be good. Don't let other people get to you. Take the locus of control and put it inside yourself whenever you hear something that aggrieves you and then partake in the healing sacraments of your church. It takes a lot of effort for a person to be both their statue and their sculptor, but we have a little trick in the fact that grace abounds.

Bye.

Goodbye, and thanks for making these threads so great while you were here.

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Aug 14, 2006



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I need prayers. And maybe more.

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Also this isn't a request for me but my brother and some of my close friends are starting qualifiers for grad school this week and we've got enough academics here to appreciate they could use prayers

Prayers sent (in addition to just generally keeping the whole thread in my prayers)!


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fun fact the reason Evangelicals in the US are super anti abortion is because an Evangelical culture warrior and a Catholic culture warrior teamed up in the 80s and they combined a bunch of stuff that one or the other of them hated. there's a big element of "i must remain pure and i hate this evil thing so all of life must be drawn into a Venn diagram regarding this topic where the circles don't overlap". everything must be one or the other, good or evil, day or night, dead or alive, etc

Too bad we just convinced the Evangelicals to oppose abortion and then got our entire political focus corrupted by them, instead of converting them

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Aug 14, 2006



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That's a completely absurd exaggeration of what I mean and you know it.

Well, right, but it's like the Winston Churchill anecdote -

quote:

“Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?"
Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... "
Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?"
Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!"
Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price”

You can accept that free bisexual porno videos some Communion prayers might be efficacious - even if you don't believe anything happens to or with or around the bread, you can accept that there's some that are Good Prayers - and you can accept that there's obviously some that are absurdly bad (orange juice and gum), so it's reasonable to suggest that there's some that aren't obviously absurd but also not Good Prayers.

Like, we Catholics aren't girl licking girl pussy exactly as strict as it sounds: our opinion on Exact Words and Correct Material is that we know emo girl nude pictures those work, and we free 3d comics porn don't know whether anything else does or doesn't, much like we assert that we know that some people definitely sex stores in va are in Heaven, but not whether or not someone else teen fucked for cash isn't. It's less "I cast magic missile at the darkness!" and more "if I say "Mrs Campbell, may I please go to the bathroom?" I'll definitely get to go, but I don't know whether she'll let me go if I say "can" or if I don't say "please" or if I just grab the bathroom pass and wave it wildly over my head, and I really need to go, so I'm going to say it exactly the right way."

For all Fr. Z's faults, I very much appreciate his "Say the black, do the red" catchphrase, and strongly considered buying one of those mugs for one of my parish's previous pastors, not because I'm afraid that a priest who doesn't keep his index finger and thumb together after the consecration is committing a sacrilege, but because when a priest says what's written for him to say, and does what's written for him to do, he avoids his congregation having to worry about whether the sacrament in question - whether it's baptism or communion or confession - was valid, demi lovato had sex and he's demonstrating that he cares about what he's doing, that it's not a performance or a chance to show off how Really Truly Pastoral And Relevant he is.

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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



Part of the problem, I think, is that we live in a culture where "magic and incantations" are something that obviously don't work. Several threads ago I remarked that the "make nine photocopies of this and leave one in each of nine different churches, nine days in a row" prayers in the back of the church seemed like form letters, and HEY GUNS informed me that the religious variant hardcore anal porn video predated the "Johnny didn't send this letter to anyone, and three days later he was hit by two subway trains at once" sort.

So if one is thinking about "say the black, do the red" as a form letter, well, sure, obviously God is not going to send two subway trains to hit St. Ipsydipsy's, simultaneously porno de culonas gratis or sequentially. But if one thinks about it as a gesture of obedience and piety, then obviously it makes sense to privilege pious obedience over well-meaning attempts at relevance.

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Aug 14, 2006



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Why does the precise wording thing only affect the liturgy and not reading the Bible? Why are Bible translations okay if the power is in precise words and not the intent?

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because reading the bible doesn't change reality on a fundamental level: the words of consecration nudist colony sex videos exactly as they are written do if you're a catholic.

On the one hand, it's not "and not the intent", it's "and not the intent alone", because intent matters hot girls nude naked too, and on the other hand, most Catholics are attending Mass where the prayers big tit black teen are all translations. It's "the precise words, in the translation designated for the language you're using" - that is, supposing we meet aliens from Tau Ceti who speak Taurinee, and via magic sufficiently advanced technology, a human priest becomes perfectly fluent in Taurinee, he shouldn't ad-lib a translation from English (or even Latin) into Taurinee. Again, it's not because God would be incapable of understanding Taurinee until the Church translated prayers into that language for Him, but rather from a "we know this works, we don't know what else might, we should stick with what we know works" perspective.

And, on the other ebony amatuer sex videos other hand, some translations does youtube show porn aren't okay: a translation where the translators intended to disprove the divinity of Christ would be one that Catholics shouldn't purchase. A study Bible where the footnotes were anti-Catholic or anti-supernatural or something, even if the translation were the same one that gets read at Mass, would also be inappropriate for a Catholic to use.

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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



"This is the first formal resignation the Pope has decreed since every bishop in Chile offered to step down in May over the country's sex abuse scandal. The move is thought to be unprecedented in the modern history of the Catholic Church." I'm pretty sure it means the resignations, yes.

Also, "expel" is a bit strong, he wasn't excommunicated, just laicized.

(Also also, it's interesting to see the local diocese apparently being more effective than local secular law enforcement, unless "the Archbishop of Santiago ordered a criminal investigation into allegations of sexual abuse against him" means "reported him to the people who normally investigate crimes"?)

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Aug 14, 2006



Specifically, Jesus didn't pay online free webcam sex instead of us paying, because us being crucified wouldn't have accomplished anything. In order to make reparations for the first sin, the one that infected all of us, a priest had to perfectly offer a perfect sacrifice, but we can't do things perfectly and didn't have anything perfect to offer anyway. So Jesus offered himself. Problem solved.

(This does not mean that after this sacrifice he 3d space adventure porn didn't beat up Satan and steal his lunch money all the souls of the dead. It does mean that we weren't sitting on death row when mysteriously someone offered to be executed on our behalf.)

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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



I don't remember which author put it this way, and all my Catholic apologetics books are still in a box, three years after moving, but one of them described two depictions of original sin this way:

1) Adam and Eve started out tied with Satan, then God gave Adam and Eve one point, and then they scored an own goal. Result: the game is tied. None of us have the advantage they did, jessica simpson nude net and we all inherit the tendency to score own goals, sometimes lots of them.
2) Adam and Eve started out tied with Satan, then they scored an own goal and God set the score to -1 to 1. Result: the human team is not only behind, but impossibly behind. Somebody's taped a giant negative sign next to our side of the scoreboard.

When Catholics say that Mary wasn't affected by original sin, we mean "she started out tied with Satan, like we did, but she didn't have the tendency to score own goals, like we do, so she never ended up behind," not "all of us started out evil, but she didn't."

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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



Different variants of Christianity describe "omnipotence" differently. One is "God is like us, but more so", where you get concepts like "God could violate an inviolable law of the universe without causing a contradiction" or "God is so good that he never does anything bad", and with that description, "A rock beyond God's strength that God moves anyway because he's God" is at least not an impossible jumble of words. Another description is "God doesn't have existence like we do, God free ebony mobile porn is existence," and with that description the idea of "a rock so heavy God can't lift it" really is just a pile of words; if a rock is too big for me to lift, it means I don't have enough strength to lift it, but God free bestiality porn vids doesn't have strength, God real rape sex movies is his ability to do things. God never has just enough or more than enough or less than enough anything to do anything, because God doesn't have, God is.

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Aug 14, 2006



Senju, I get that you feel passionately about this, but... okay, yes, there's totally some anti-Catholicism out there, especially among Evangelicals, but people have presented you with reasons why that's free red hair pussy probably not what's going on this time. We did done hosed up when it comes to handling children and young men abused by priests, brothers, and nuns, and whether or not the folks who did the denying and lying and hiding of abusers have repented, whether or not they've done sufficient penance or been purified in Purgatory, there's still temporal consequences to having sinned that grotesquely, and those consequences are coming home to roost.

But even if it were - even if you free fake rape porn were totally right that this was motivated by "lol we get to fry some mackerel-snappers!! let's direct our soulless drones to do some good ol' persecutin'!!" - attacking HEY GUNS like that is completely beyond the pale. Politics conversations in this thread seem to be whatever the Buddhist equivalent of a near occasion of sin is, for you; I get that you're afraid because you're more vulnerable than many of us, but that doesn't excuse attacking somebody else.

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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



I like the implication that the baby is not only aware of what's going on but actively refusing to become a Christian. Like, if the problem is that they didn't ask the baby, presumably at least some would be pleased that they'd somehow managed to convince Source of Milk and Strange Person to baptize them, right?

Two kids from my son's school were baptized at the first school Mass of the year. It was kind of cool, and also kind of weird because their godparents were making promises on their behalf but they were both definitely older than 7 (they weren't first-graders or kindergarteners, ergo).

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Aug 14, 2006



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whereas--and i think zonohedron has said something like this from the Catholic side--for me religion is about what i do, rather than what i think or how i feel. some days i "feel" more religious than others (i feel love for God, I have the urge to pray), but i am always orthodox.

like, if you're in a long term relationship, you're there on the days when you feel a rush of love for your partner, and on the days when everything just seems to drag

Yeah. Like, I can honestly say that I believe and profess everything the Catholic Church teaches and professes, but I don't spend my days reflecting on that, or even teaching other people that. On a day-to-day basis religion is blessing things when I put them in the oven, getting the six-year-old to say grace after meals for us, guiding the three-year-old's hand through the sign of the cross, dragging my sons with me to church, that kind of thing. I have had religious experiences. I have had long periods of time where I was enthusiastically Catholic. But those come and go. If every time I prayed I had an experience like the kind I've related privately to some folks from this thread, it'd be overwhelming and ultimately unpleasant, like having prime rib three meals a day seven days a week. I like prime rib! I like the looks on waiters' faces when I order the largest cut of it, and then actually eat it and the side dishes too! But I couldn't do a meal like that weekly, never mind thrice-daily.

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Aug 14, 2006



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There's a thread title right there.

"Christianity thread: also friendly atheists and one pagan"?

edit: of course that'd also bring in people to harass said "one pagan" and maybe no. "Christianity thread: all are welcome, all are welcome, allllllll are wellllllcome innnnn this plaaaaaaaaaace"

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Aug 14, 2006




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Francis with the stop order today. Holy cannoli. Not sure how anyone in America can give money to this group ever again.

For more context, the US Council of Catholic Bishops had planned to devote their yearly meeting rough forced sex video solely to handling the abuse crisis. This was a promising sign. It didn't mean anything good would come of it, but it meant something good women rape man porn could happen.

And then, today, came a last-minute notice: don't vote on anything related to sexual abuse by clergy until all the bishops have met in February. Meanwhile, the Vatican's ambassador to the US...

quote:

warned of supporting outside lay investigations into the church. He seemed to refer obliquely to both the bishops' now-tabled proposal to establish a lay commission capable of investigating bishops' misconduct, and also the more than a dozen U.S. states' ongoing criminal and civil investigations into crimes committed by priests.

“There may be a temptation on the part of some to relinquish responsibility for reform to others from ourselves, as if we were no longer capable of reforming or trusting ourselves,” Pierre said. “Assistance is both welcome and necessary, and surely collaboration with the laity is essential. However, the responsibility as bishops of this Catholic Church is ours."

Pierre, a French bishop sent by Pope Francis to Washington in 2016, quoted a French author who said that “whoever pretends to reform the church with the same means to reform temporal society” will “fail.”

On the bright side, Daniel Cardinal DiNardo spoke after the ambassador:

quote:

“Brother bishops, to exempt ourselves from this high standard of accountability is unacceptable and cannot stand,” DiNardo said, striking a markedly different tone just after the ambassador spoke. “Whether we will be regarded as guardians of the abused or the abuser will be determined by our actions.”

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Aug 14, 2006



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My life has instantly become nothing but untuned piano and a dozen singers in eight different keys and time signatures.
We have come to share our stoooooooooory, we have come to breaaak the breaaaaad....

(sorry, y'all, but it's both unfairly easy and endlessly entertaining to troll anyone who's suffered attended Masses in the US with the typical choir found therein...)

quote:

Every time I think the Church may be pulling itself together, it chooses to act in a way that gives the opposite impression. It's not heartening.

I think the American bishops are going to discuss anyway, just not vote or make binding recommendations, which is good, I guess, but it is jeffrey dean morgan sex very much not-heartening that Pope Francis is doing this top-down, all-dioceses-in-sync nonsense instead of a first-among-equals, collegiality-not-curiality attitude that he seems to have elsewhere.

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Aug 14, 2006



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Then you run into the question of 'If Paul himself would not say his writings were equal to the OT, how can someone else living centuries later declare they are?'

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Same mechanism. The bulk of the books in the OT weren't considered significant by the people who wrote them. They were considered significant by the people that read them and chose to preserve them. There were a bunch of other books that are referred to in the OT that are lost because people quit recopying them.

Right; there are OT books that say "and the rest of this story is in the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel", which whether it was an oral history or a written book we do not have any at all whatsoever of it. There isn't even consensus on what girl free sex movie belongs in the OT: Protestants typically have fewer books than Catholics, and the various Orthodox Churches appear to have more than the Catholic Church but differing lists - e.g. both the Syriac Orthodox and the Ethiopian Orthodox have more books than Catholics, but they don't have the big ass shemale sex same more books.

Assuming all of Paul's letters were written by one person (which is not universally held), that one person does not appear to have perceived the Holy Spirit directly instructing him in what words to choose when writing, and the Catholic Church, at least, does not describe inspiration that way. God didn't say "Paul, start this letter by describing yourself as 'a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of the elect of God and the acknowledging of the truth, which is according to godliness'," God hinted that Paul should start a letter to Titus, and then when he did, suggested the kinds of things that Titus needed to be instructed about, and prevented Paul from including anything contrary to the truth. Anything more forceful would have impeded Paul from exercising his free will, after all.

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Aug 14, 2006



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HEY GUNS posted:

icons are timeless
To me, it's the resurrected Christ that is the more potent and meaningful symbol, not the dying one, but that, again, is just me.

It's not a question of which one is the more enduring symbol, but that icons aren't really... video porno 3gp gratis in time, in the same way.

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It's part of a broader sense of the Church existing partially outside time, like in those paintings of John the Baptist or Bernard of Clairvaux the crucifixion, or in the medieval idea that the Church is simultaneously Militant on earth, Penitent in purgatory, and Triumphant in heaven.

Right. When I go to Mass I am mystically present at the Last Supper and at the Crucifixion, even though not only did both events occur a long time ago, they didn't occur simultaneously either. The priest at the altar isn't re-sacrificing Jesus, but participating in Jesus's single self-sacrifice. "You never cease to gather a people to yourself, so that from the rising of the sun to its setting a pure sacrifice may be offered to your name," says Eucharistic Prayer III, and it's describing a single, ongoing sacrifice which all the gathered people, wherever and whenever they live, are offering.

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Aug 14, 2006




quote:

"This paper is saying even though people were converting indigenous people to Catholicism, while they were doing that they were also teaching them skills."

I think this has it the wrong way around; they taught them skills nude in public pool because they were converting them, right? (I do wanna see a Franciscan response to "y'all had missions too, but only the Jesuit ones had measurable secular benefits", though )

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Aug 14, 2006



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How do you Orthodox or Catholics deal with social policies that offend your sensibilities?

I take the current Pope's attitude of capital punishment as something with which I will not disagree in public. There's a long tradition of Catholics having particular aspects of Church policy as things that they will neither defend nor disagree with; the goal for me would be to eventually be able to defend it, but I don't think having that as a goal is obligatory. Certainly the myriads of people HEY GUNS mentioned were unlikely to want to be able to defend doctrines that offended them!

On the other hand, lesbian girls sex videos were those social policies to change, I would have very serious doubt about the Catholic Church being what it claims to be. (One of the things you said you could 'overlook' is something we can't discuss in this thread; the rest of this parenthetical has been redacted.) The only reason to say "that's something I do not defend but won't disagree with" is because one thinks the Catholic Church is directly descended from the Church instituted by Christ and that unimpaired communion with the Pope is at least important if not crucial. Other Christian denominations have beautiful worship and fancy hats without unpleasant policies.

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Aug 14, 2006



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This is not fair to yourselves or the rest of the thread, and I say this as one who holds views contrary to most of this community. We all lose when an honest contributor goes silent.

We do lose when an honest contributor goes silent, but we free piss drinking porn also don't need to provide a forum for racism or for "cultures need to maintain their diversity" and "it's too easy to travel and as a result people don't stay with the communities they're born into". I appreciate that disagreeing with many of the thread regulars hasn't gotten me kicked out, or yelled at, or shamed - nobody got mad at me for, "Well, if you don't like teaching a, b, or c, maybe you could opt to neither defend them nor disagree with them publicly," for example. But I think if someone came in saying "Marcion was right, the Jews' tribal deity isn't our god and the Old Testament is bad" we wouldn't respond with, "Your honest contribution to discussion is very interesting." Would we?

(For that matter, CountFosco, you girl who want sex could consider neither defending nor publicly disagreeing with your church's views on tolerance and many people living together, and posting in response to other things in the thread, you know.)

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Aug 14, 2006



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I do not understand this, at all. Why is Mary being inhuman desirable? Shouldn't examples and exemplars be human, above all else? So we can relate to them, sympathize with them, and learn from them? Even if you believe in saints, shouldn't their humanity be emphasized?

Even Jesus by definition understood and related to our human struggles and failings, the one perfect design of mankind walking among us.



Mary show me nude girls isn't inhuman and shouldn't be described as inhuman, but at the same time, her story can't be reduced to an ordinary human drama: there's supernatural aspects about it from the very beginning. Catholics (and, I think, the Orthodox?) believe that her marriage to Joseph was arranged so that she would have a protector while remaining a sworn virgin. This is not inhuman or unnatural; ordinary people have had "Josephite marriages" too; but it makes the drama about her pregnancy free panty porn movies different, not a usual "man discovers fiancee pregnant" situation. Women have had their only children executed for offending the government, and grieved for them, but Mary's son's execution was old people having sex different from theirs, and wishing that she might be unaware of the doom ahead of her is to wish that she wasn't really a participant in his life.

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Aug 14, 2006



And, I mean, we might be understanding, depending on the politician and the reason for bribery

More seriously, on this feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, I wanted to share this really nice video that my 6-year-old is watching about Juan Diego. (He didn't watch it at school because he was home sick today.)

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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



I try to pray in the car while taking my first-grader to school. This means that any day he's not in school, and Saturday, I don't... usually remember to pray in the morning.

I used to have an alarm on my watch to pray the Angelus at noon, but it bothered my husband, so I turned it off; the habit sunk in enough that I maybe pray it three days a week.

I pray while making dinner a lot - something about seeing steam rising invariably reminds me of the line "the prayers of the saints rise like clouds of incense", and even when I'm using the oven or the microwave instead, pussy and tit pics this habit's pretty good. I don't do grace before meals because that would require everyone having their food at the same time, which almost never happens, or everyone being willing to wait, which never ever happens, so instead my first-grader says grace after meals for us (and has since before kindergarten). I wanted to see if he was going to do it spontaneously at Thanksgiving, but the neighbors who were hosting us had all the kids eating outside on a blanket while the adults ate inside

Then I try to remember to pray before I go to bed, which... eeeeh okay look I try. It's gone better in Advent because the boys and I have been lighting an Advent wreath together! So there's that. Maybe I just need candles.

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Aug 14, 2006



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Upper Midwestern Catholic Mumblings are similar.

"Blessus Lord forthagifts we'reabouta recievefromthybunty."
The grace after meals, when my son is saying it, ends up "wethankeeord theseallvyvenfits th'liveandreignf'rever" most of the time. I was told in religion class that when Our Lady appeared at Fatima, the three children had just finished saying the rosary by saying the words "hail, Mary" ten times instead of saying the whole prayer! (Presumably in Portuguese, not English, now that I think about this charming anecdote.)

Silvola posted:

HEY GUNS posted:

What would we have become if we made concessions to modernity five hundred years ago
...Protestants?
You joke, but HEY GUNS has related that in the time period he studies, a Lutheran service and a Catholic service were indistinguishable by the average mercenary. Arguably many of the differences between modern Catholicism and modern Orthodoxy arose from Catholics adjusting to the Protestants... so it's interesting to contemplate that not having happened.

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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



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This question is probably dumb, but when Judas betrayed Jesus was he (Judas) supposed to have become disillusioned with Jesus' teachings? And come to the conclusion that he isn't the son of God? Otherwise what he did makes no sense to me.

"I know you're the Messiah or whatever but I could really use the money"

One theory is that he believed that Jesus was the Messiah, was disillusioned with Jesus refusing to kick the Romans out, and attempted to engineer a situation where Jesus would pissing inside a pussy have to call down an entire legion of angels to rescue him. Then Jesus didn't call down any angels at black shemales porn movies all, and even Peter denied knowing him, and his body was stabbed to be sure it was actually dead, and Judas thought he had caused the failure of God's plan, so, out of the sin of despair ("I have done something so awful that God could never ever forgive or fix it!") he committed suicide.

(Alternately, he was just really greedy - at least one of the Gospels say that he was stealing from the disciples' collective money bag - and figured he'd pocket the 30 silver and Jesus would be fine anyway, given all the times he big cock porn sex didn't die. He walked on water! He passed right through a crowd that wanted to throw him off a cliff near Nazareth! He went to Lazarus's tomb and mourned publicly and nobody did anything! So Judas committed the sin of presumption ("yeah, sure, it's wrong to sell out an innocent man, but God will make everything work out and anyway Jesus is always talking about forgiveness, right?") and then when everything seemed to have gotten wrong, presumption turned to despair, see above for how that went, the end.)


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Personally, I've always wondered if Judas didn't do what he did because Jesus asked him to, that what happened was necessary and Jesus knew it. I've heard that Coptics hold Pilate as a saint for the same reason, that Pilate had to condemn an innocent man to death because it was God's plan, and I wonder if the same holds true for Judas. How terribly that must have hurt, to seemingly betray Jesus Christ to his death because that is part of Jesus' plan.

This suggests that Jesus instructed Judas to sin, though, and not like "yes, it's the Sabbath, but we're all starving, go ahead and pick the grain as we walk through this field" but more like "completely fail to show love for your teacher and friend by bringing armed men to arrest him", and, knowing that Judas was misusing the disciples' money anyway, put temptation in his path by making sure he'd have thirty pieces of silver obtained in secret. Pilate didn't pamela anderson nude breasts have to condemn Jesus; maybe if he hadn't he'd have been removed and the real nude girl pics next governor would have done it, or Herod might have had Jesus executed, or maybe the crowd would have been incited to stone him, who knows? If he's a saint it would be because he repented of what he did, perhaps because he saw how God took his unjust decision and turned it into something glorious, not because catholic church on sex of what he did, right?

(Similarly, it fulfilled prophecy for the soldiers to callously play a game to see who would win Jesus's tunic, but any of them could have decided they weren't going to gamble for a dying man's possessions right in front of said dying man.)

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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



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I'm wondering if it wasn't a sin, though, and was merely recorded that way because the people who wrote the Gospels didn't talk to Judas - or perhaps did and didn't believe him.

One big reason why I've never cared for Biblical literalism is that I was trained too well in history. The Bible is God's word, as understood and written by men, and the books of the Bible were assembled by men. Different denominations of Christianity have different books in the Bible, and I've always wondered what might be true but didn't make it in. Perhaps because the author of one of the books hated another of the Disciples and didn't talk to him, perhaps because what happened didn't fit the mores of the time, or perhaps was rejected from inclusion in the Bible because it preached something that didn't suit the morals or secular desires for power among the church leaders at the time. Not to mention how many times the Bible's been translated over the years.

Well, I mean, sure, any of that's theoretically possible, but at that point we're just getting into "wouldn't it be neat if?" speculation, right? Like, we have these four documents which purport to be truthfully presenting an actual series of events, and which were accepted as truthful accounts of recent events by people who knew people who knew the authors, or at least people who knew people who family incest sex tube said they knew the authors, and on the basis of that, well, maybe he was greedy, maybe he was not in control of his actions at all because he was possessed by a demon, maybe he wanted to bring about the overthrow of the Romans because Jesus seemed to be dawdling, or maybe we have no idea because the people who wrote the Gospels couldn't talk to Judas since he was, at that point, dead. (Or at that point he had run away and let everyone believe he was dead, which for purposes of getting his side of the story is the same.)

So if we suggest that what happened is that Jesus told Judas to do it, and we just don't know that because Jesus never said so to the apostles and Judas let everyone believe he'd committed suicide, we're still looking at Jesus telling Judas to sin, because: Judas went secretly to the authorities and arranged to be paid for leading soldiers to Jesus; Judas actually did lead soldiers to Jesus; Judas then vanishes from the account. If I ask someone to kill me, or for that matter even to maim me, that's a sin, because I'm asking someone else to sin (murder and maiming both being wrong). If they agree, that's a sin (it's wrong to agree to do a wrong thing), and if they follow through, that's wrong (it's wrong to do a bad thing), even if they fail. I guess I just don't see how "leading soldiers to arrest someone in secret in the middle of the night, when that person is innocent" isn't a bad thing to do?

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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



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Like I said, I wonder. Strange as it might sound for a Christian to say, I'm fond of this saying: Believe those who say they seek the truth. Doubt those who say they've found it.

I'm not going to doubt someone who says they're certain that JFK died from suffering a gunshot wound to the head, just because they're certain. I'm not going to believe someone who says they're seeking the truth about vaccines and autism, even if I have no doubt that they're sincerely seeking the truth. I don't think history classes need to teach that there's serious disagreement over whether or not humans ever landed on the Moon.

The only reason to treat a discussion of things that happened to people mentioned in the Gospels as different is if those accounts aren't to be accepted as at least trying to present an accurate account of actual events. (I would ordinarily say "true story" but there are people who think the Gospels can "be true" without an actual historical person named Jesus actually living in Judea and actually being executed by crucifixion.) Did Judas really betray Jesus to the authorities? The Gospels say he did, and you and I seem to agree that this is actually a thing that happened. Why did he do it? The Gospels don't say for sure, but suggesting that Jesus instructed him to do so certainly best celeb sex video seems like suggesting that Jesus not only would but naked sims 2 skins did tell someone to sin.

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zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006



I first really naked group of people felt the problem of translation when I read translations of the Pange Lingua that just... didn't seem right compared to Edward Caswall's translation from the 1800s.

On the night of that last supper, seated with his chosen band
He, the paschal victim eating, first fulfills the law's command
Then as food to his disciples, gives himself with his own hand

vs

At the last great supper lying, circled by his brethren's band
Meekly with the law complying, first he finished the command
Then, immortal food supplying, gave himself with his own hand

(If nothing else, I like Caswall's translation because you can hear it as "Jesus, eating the Paschal lamb, fulfills the law's command" or "Jesus, the Paschal Victim, by eating fulfills the law's command", even though that wordplay isn't present in the Latin and the translation that Magnificat uses in its missals is more faithful to the Latin.)

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