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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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Traditional Catholic rite has that passage as the epistle, but I've always heard the priest insist upon the man's part: Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church. And then they point out that Christ literally died on the cross for the Church.

Thank you Cythereal for posting good cats.

Yeah, the word translated as "submit" has a different connotation in Greek. It doesn't mean meekly give in to whatever the other wants, it means to voluntarily put the needs of the other first.

Paul then turns it around and says fundamentally the same thing to the men - put the needs of your wives first.

The general usage of the passage is a deliberate misinterpretation of what Paul is trying to say so as to reinforce preconceived gender roles.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

It's certainly in the style of late 1st millennium stuff, but there's no way it's actually that old.

The Victorians had a habit of making new things in old styles, I would be it's a late-19th century creation. It's not a reproduction of anything well-known as far as I can tell.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

Speaking of family, I could use some prayers.

My dad is 87 and was diagnosed with pneumonia at the end of July. He got a chest x-ray for it, and they discovered he also had a massive tumor in his lung, which had metastasized to his liver, lymph nodes, and most internal organs already.

The pneumonia won't clear because the tumor is providing all sorts of protected areas to shield the pneumococcus bacteria and keep it safe. After 3 rounds of oral antibiotics, he spent a week at home where he could neither eat nor drink, and slowly degenerated and finally got to the hospital yesterday. He's now on fluids to fight dehydration, three or four rounds of IV antibiotics, and now can barely get out of the bed to go 10 feet to the bathroom with a walker and help from the PT. This man was vigorously working in his garden, pulling weeds and raising fences to fend off deer three weeks ago - and he hasn't even started on cancer treatments yet. We get to start on that once the pneumonia finally clears (if ever).

He's got an awfully long, steep road to climb if he's going to make it and I don't see how he will. I hope as ever for the miraculous healing hand of God, that he may survive this, but then he's 87 years old with cardiac problems - how much longer would he be expected to survive even without all this? We all must go eventually, but life is so precious, we want every instant of it here that we can get.

Anyway, this is a powerful group and I respect your faiths immensely. Please put John Moyer in Midland Michigan on your lists for a while. He's going to need all the help he can get. I'll post with news on his condition periodically.

I love all of you and thank you for the gift of yourselves and these threads.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

My Dad died peacefully this morning. Thank you all for your prayers, and continue them for my mother and our family.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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If someone did Communion with chewing gum and orange juice, and saying 'rub-a-dub-dub thanks for the grub' instead of reciting Biblical verses, would you agree it was 'wrong'?

In a youth service, my wife was part of serving communion with Coke and potato chips. It was valid for them in the United Church of Christ.

Their point was that there is nothing magic about bread and wine. They were just common foods that were shared at the meal. If Jesus were around today, he might well have passed around Coke and potato chips. The meaning of the sacrament is in your relationship with God, not the stuff you're putting in your mouth.

I realize its a Protestant versus Catholic thing, and neither side will ever agree with the other about it.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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Oh, I'd never dispute that! I just thought it to be somewhat weird that a professor of history would state this as absolute fact and not contextualise it as a biblical account and/or a theological idea, but instead as historical truth. Hebrew slavery in Egypt in all likelihood wasn't a thing (or if it was, than only a fringe phenomenon), and therefore the idea of keeping the Sabbath can't have anything to do with it. It definitely can have something to with the nude pinoy male celebrity idea of the Exodus, though, but I guess presenting Exodus as the definite account of what happened just doesn't sit right with me, especially if the author is someone whose very job it is (or should be) to check sources and question convenient narratives.

They wouldn't have had to be literal slaves for the story to work. Just a disrespected lower caste that wasn't free to come and go. Pharaoh and the "let my people go!" confrontation depends only on them not being free to leave, not that they were individually owned by someone else.

I've always understood the bar to their leaving to be economic necessity, sort of like how an upper-class Victorian household would collapse if all the help left at once.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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Sure, except a lot of the evidence suggests that the Exodus didn't happen at all, and that the Israelites were an indigenous Canaanite kingdom. The story was made up because "We conquered this land with the help of the gods" was a more legitimate basis for rule than "We've just always been here."

The evidence is uncertain, as it's not at all clear exactly what evidence one would expect to see if a small band of settlers from Egypt showed up unannounced at the start of the Iron Age.

It's certainly possible that the Exodus story is entirely made up, but stating that as a certain fact is a distortion.

"We don't know" is a perfectly valid scientific opinion.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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"We don't know" is a perfectly valid scientific option, but what the book of Numbers and Joshua describes is over a million people (Numbers gives about 600,000 adult men) coming into Canaan, defeating the land's armies, sacking its cities, and exterminating and enslaving its inhabitants. If that were to happen, you'd expect to find discontinuity in the archeological record. But you don't. The physical culture seems to be the same, the religion seems to be the same, the language seems to be the same. I mean, before the Exodus happened, you have the Canaanites making Canaanite pottery, worshiping Baal-Hadad, and writing proto-Hebrew. After the Exodus happened, you have the Israelites making Canaanite pottery, worshiping Baal-Hadad and writing proto-Hebrew.

So lets just say that we have no evidence of the Exodus happening other than writings made at least 500 years after it supposedly occurred?

There's no evidence that the Exodus happened the way the Bible describes it.

That doesn't rule out other sorts of processes that result in some Egyptian refugees from the Sea Peoples invasion ending up in Palestine. It's certain that at least some of the tribes of the Hebrew Confederation were locals, but that does not imply that all of them were.

There's a whole lot of possibilities between "completely true" and "completely false."

One of the more interesting developments of the last few decades is the discovery of new Iron Age I settlements in the Judean highlands by a previously unidentified people who didn't eat pork. They are generally accepted as being proto-Israelites, but where they came from and why they made themselves culturally distinct is an open question still being argued about.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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There's also always the question of why the large organization isn't shoring up the finances given that they are tax free for just that purpose.

Most denominations do precisely that. If they decide a church is needed in a place that can't afford to support it, they'll kick in funds from the organization. My mom's home church is even lending a pastor to another small church to help them stay afloat.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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so i really upset someone the other day by asking about the necessity of the crucifixion in frankly insensitive terms, and i'd like to educate myself

can anyone recommend a good explanation of Catholic soteriology for a layman

That's actually an interesting question I've often debated in myself. God is omnipotent, and could have atoned for our sins any way he wanted to. It wasn't strictly sex and nude women necessary that Christ was crucified and resurrected, but it's how God chose to do things, for reasons we can only guess at.

I suspect it was for sex has a price our benefit, that we needed to see a man killed horribly and be resurrected anyway. God wanted to demonstrate his power over death in the most graphic form possible.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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...no

As I understand it, Original Sin in most contexts refers to the idea that we are all born bearing the sins of Adam. We're sinners at birth.

I am more inclined to believe that we are born sinless and pure, because God created us in His image. However, we are human and inevitably will sin. So, we are born without sin but we're human and are destined to live a sinful life which corrupts our innately sinless origin.

It's a fine distinction, but I believe we all start out pure and are doomed to slide toward sinfulness, rather than we're born sinful and that is our fundamental nature.
Adam wasn't a real person, so he didn't commit any sins for us to inherit.

The story of the Fall is an attempt by ancient people to explain the observation that everyone seems to be born with an inherent tendency to sin.

Exactly free xxx family porn why we all inherently want to sin is up for debate. I would argue that a baby born on an island and raised by wolves would still be sinful, because he is human and sinfulness goes with being human. Sin is not something you catch from the environment.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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I was recently reminded of the one joke I heard probably 20 times from my theology teachers in college. I suspect all theology majors in English speaking countries have heard it.

"Why were the priests in Jesus' time sad? Because they were sadducee!"

The others seem to go out of their way to give everyone a break - they're fair, I see.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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Could someone please pray for me? Things are, well, not going great at the moment. I need help, but not sure there is anywhere left to turn.

Praying for you right now. Things may not turn out the way you want them to, but they will turn out OK.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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Cyth: Florida had a good chance to finally elect a decent person as governor and refuse to pass amendments that are going to gently caress up the state's tax situation, and blew it.

Democracy is no more doomed than it was yesterday or will be tomorrow, but I am dismayed with how my state turned out and it's not helped my persistent struggle with severe depression.



Last night was a single battle. The war goes on. Do not despair or submit.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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"Christianity thread: also friendly atheists and one pagan"?

edit: of course that'd also bring in people to harass said "one pagan" and maybe no. "Christianity thread: all are welcome, all are welcome, allllllll are wellllllcome innnnn this plaaaaaaaaaace"

Christianity thread convoy: Eleven long-haired friends of Jesus in a chartreuse microbus

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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yeah sorry i have never heard those terms used that way. in my experience as an american, if i heard someone saying "heh i'm woman talk about sex reformed not protestant" i would think they were either very mistaken or that they were part of some extremely obscure out-there congregation that only their own members have ever heard of

Yeah, I grew up in Michigan with a large Dutch Reformed population, and "Reformed" was always just a shortened version of that - and some of them are sufficiently extreme that claiming to be "Reformed, not Protestant" would not be surprising. It's a label you have to be a bit careful with because it means so many different things in different contexts.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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I've occasionally heard people claim Mennonites/other Anabaptists as something distinct from Protestants, but naah, though I'd certainly grant that we protested a bit more than some.


Yeah, similiarly, Menno Simons (also German) certainly talked about Anabaptism as an evangelical church; the most famous quotation from his writings is a description of what he calls "the true evangelical faith". And, again, I wouldn't draw many comparisons between that and the American Evangelical movement.

(He also probably wouldn't have been super impressed by people naming their church after him, but so it goes.)

It was "Evangelical" (from Greek Evangelion) because it emphasized the Gospels, to distinguish them from the Catholics who emphasized works. The connection with proselytizing came later.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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ItÂ’s gotten to the point where I genuinely hate Protestants

As a Protestant, I'd like to be the first to welcome you to the thread.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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I have not studied those good things. But I look at it like - I can make the world better, but I can't make it all the way better. That would take everyone. I'm not that important.

Same. The fact that I can't solve all the world's problems doesn't stop me from solving the ones I can. It's a collective effort - we all do what we can and try to fill the gaps left by others. We try to emulate God while being painfully aware that we're not God and can't do it all.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I have a quick Bible question. 2 Timothy 3:16 says: "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" What exactly is Paul referring to by "scripture?" Is it exclusively referring to the OT? Were there even any written accounts of Jesus that were considered scripture at the time Paul wrote this? Is there any evidence that he was referring to his own writings or works yet to be written? Some evangelicals use an anachronistic definition of that word to argue for biblical inerrancy.

The NT didn't exist when that was written, so it has to refer to the OT exclusively. There was little, if anything, written about Jesus at that point. There may have been some collections of Jesus' sayings running around, but that's about it. The earliest Gospels wouldn't appear for another couple decades.

In no other situation would anyone consider the word "inspired" to mean dictated word-for-word. For example, a movie that claims to be inspired by a true story is not expected to be a literal retelling of the story: we expect the broad outlines to match the real thing, but allow for some creative license in telling the actual story.

It's basically a case of people working backwards from a conclusion to find what they want.

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I've pondered things along those lines myself, I wonder if Paul thought of his own writings as being equal to the OT writings?

No, at no point was Paul attempting to write anything significant. He was writing letters to churches he'd founded to help them deal with problems. It was the churches that hung onto them and decided they were important.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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Then you run into the question of 'If Paul himself would not say his writings were equal to the OT, how can someone else living centuries later declare they are?'

Same mechanism. The bulk of the books in the OT weren't considered significant by the people who wrote them. They were considered significant by the people that read them and chose to preserve them. There were a bunch of other books that are referred to in the OT that are lost because people quit recopying them.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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I once had a really long chat with my priest (Catholic) about LGBT issues in the church, and he said he thought things on that front would eventually change. Already the attitude isn't quite as hardline in a lot of places. I sort of absorb it the same way I take the Church's teachings on contraception. It's not in line with what we understand about life and one day the church will reflect that. The wheels turn slowly. The church isn't perfect but I believe there's value in it despite all the horrible nonsense it also contains. A bit like family. My family isn't perfect but for me, it's worth dealing with the stupid bullshit, to have the good and valuable stuff. Other people might feel differently and I understand that. I don't think, if I were coming at religion from a perspective of not having been raised Catholic, that I would choose Catholicism because of the social policies I so firmly disagree with. But I was, and it's home to me.

I don't think this was very coherent, sorry.

Churches (of any denomination) are inherently conservative - not politically conservative, but "resistant to change" conservative. Policies and attitudes change over the course of generations and centuries. They don't like changing doctrines willy-nilly. Any change has to be thoroughly thought through and worded in a way to be defensible forever. They want to deal with something once and be done with it. Hence, society changes a whole lot faster than church doctrine does.

LGBT issues are comparatively recent (well, they've always been around but became socially important recently), so it's going to take some time for churches to react and craft a response they can be comfortable with for a long time. My own denomination (Methodist) has been rather backward on the issue, but they've been talking about it internally for about 40 years and are gradually working out a policy for it. It may be coming to a head next January, in fact. I've stuck with them while they've been hashing it out. If they can't find an acceptable position on it soon, though, I may start looking elsewhere.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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Little Drummer Boy does nothing good to me.

I've always liked it because all Jesus wants is for you to be yourself as best you can be.

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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

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This is a very hard time of year for me. Christmas makes me feel extremely lonely, and as a complete gently caress/up and failure. There are no parties, no gifts, no cards, nothing. No, really, nothing. I send gifts to my nieces and nephews, that is all. I am not welcome with my family. Or rather, if I show up, the majority of the rest of the family will NOT show up. I truly do not want to make my sisters have to make that choice, it is better for everyone if I'm not there. I no longer have any friends. New Years Eve is actually worse than Christmas, but December in general is a really bad month for me. The massive "Yaya, everyone is happy! Pretty colours and gifts and foods and parties and friends etc" everywhere in media really gets to me. To me it is all just incredibly depressing. This is the time of year when I can't pray, because everything is just a black mass of absolutely nothing. I know it will pass about a week after New Years, when people stop talking about the fun they had or who did what.


So any prayers are really, really welcome.

You can hang out here with us. We love you and appreciate you.

I pray that you will find a social group that you can bond with and find peace within yourself.

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