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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


"Well, here it is if anybody wants to see it."

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Wikipedia posted:

Starring John Huston, Bob Random, Peter Bogdanovich, Susan Strasberg and Oja Kodar, it is a satire of both the passing of Classic Hollywood and the avant-garde filmmakers of the New Hollywood of the 1970s. The film was shot in an unconventional mockumentary style in both color and black-and-white, and it incorporated a film-within-a-film that spoofed the work of Michelangelo Antonioni.

After being in limbo for several decades, it had its world premiere at the 75th Venice International Film Festival on August 31, 2018. It is scheduled to be released on November 2, 2018, by Netflix.

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Basically, Netflix untangled the rights issues to not only complete the film, but to also produce two documentaries to be released alongside the film. The first is big butt nude pics They'll Love Me When I'm Dead (free full porn dvds) - which is more about the period it was made and Welles himself; plus another on the completion/restoration.

Whether it's good or not is besides the point - having a "new" Orson Welles film in 2018 has to be the most exciting thing in cinema this year.

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zandert33
Sep 20, 2002



I've been waiting to see this movie for so long. I have been excited reading progress updates, and been annoyed when things cooled down. I honestly never thought I'd see the day when this would actually come out.

Also think the trailer looks really interesting. I'm trying very hard to temper my expectations though, because it's very likely this movie is going to be a bit messy.

Am SERIOUSLY tempted to try to see if I can get tickets to the NYFF showing.

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MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

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I’m going to try and see it with my dad. It’s gonna be great.

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


According to David Bordwell's review, the film has over 2300 shots within the 117 minute runtime, making it have an average shot length of hot lesbian sex free three seconds, which is the same as F for Fake.

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May 6, 2007

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TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

It is a classic symbol of racism in America. This is where the white man has taken the black man and put him between two buns. And then dumped ketchup on him.


I should do a Welles watchthrough to prep for this. I've probably only seen ~half his filmography. Easily my most anticipated film of the year.

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


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I should do a Welles watchthrough to prep for this. I've probably only seen ~half his filmography. Easily my most anticipated film of the year.

I did this earlier in the year. It helps that most of his filmography has excellent quality Blu-rays. After The Magnificent Amberson's Criterion release comes out later this year, we just need The Trial and Mr. Arkadin in the US (both are out in France). F for Fake also has a doc on his unfinished work - there's apparently reconstructions of the unfinished The Deep, The Merchant of Venice, and Moby Dick Rehearsed based on what survives/was filmed too.

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TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

It is a classic symbol of racism in America. This is where the white man has taken the black man and put him between two buns. And then dumped ketchup on him.


Between unfinished projects, TV work, multiple edits of a significant portion of his filmography, and all his various acting and narration work, I can't think of another canonical director who's filmography is as much a cluttered mess as his and yet at the same time the man was a complete genius who, in the words of a former forums member, "could shoot Lawrence of Arabia in the trunk of a car" and we'd believe it.

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Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



I'm so excited to finally see this. It's still tremendously sad to me that the Indiegogo campaign didn't even meet half of its goal several years ago.

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Chicago did a retrospective of Welles' stuff in 35mm a few years ago, seeing The Trial in a gorgeous print is easily one of my favorite cinematic experiences ever. It'd be cool if someone struck a print of this as well. Chimes at Midnight might be the only Welles film that SUCKS when viewing a classic print, largely due to the fact that you can't understand anything.

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Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

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Yeah I was very excited to attend a screening of that back when I was in college, but the audio was literally gobbledygook - two hours of people, and Orson Welles, wandering around a castle moving their lips while musique concrète played.

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


Some interesting stuff from New Yorker and Wellesnet:
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Among the neat things...

- 95% of the film came from camera negative, but the audio master recordings were lost and had to be sourced from copies of copies
- ILM created some effects shots for unshot or lost footage
- Danny Huston performed ADR for his father's character where audio was lost
- They used a full 4K HDR workflow

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Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



Has there been any word on the blu-rays and posters and whatnot being sent out from the Indiegogo campaign?

Also I've been reading Orson Welles' Last Movie: The Making of The Other Side of the Wind to get hyped and drat its a fun read. I imagine a lot of the same material is covered in those Netflix documentaries but having this kind of account of the production of any of Welles' movies is incredible.

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


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Has there been any word on the blu-rays and posters and whatnot being sent out from the Indiegogo campaign?

Also I've been reading Orson Welles' Last Movie: The Making of The Other Side of the Wind to get hyped and drat its a fun read. I imagine a lot of the same material is covered in those Netflix documentaries but having this kind of account of the production of any of Welles' movies is incredible.

Nothing solid yet, but at minimum it'll include They'll Love Me When I'm Dead (the 90 min making-of) and Final Cut for Orson (the 38 min doc on the completion/restoration).

Here's the trailer for the former doc:
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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


According to a poster on CriterionForum, there WILL be a physical release, but they're not announcing anything until after the Netflix premiere and theatrical run. They're going to have five 35mm prints circulating (one is already making the rounds).

WellesNet has a list of festival/college screening dates:
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And according to the MPAA website...

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zandert33
Sep 20, 2002



Based on the footage included on the "F for Fake" DVD, I'm not surprised it's rated R.

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


One day to go!

Here's the limited theatrical release dates/locations:

Wellesnet posted:

Los Angeles ― Laemmle North Hollywood ― November 2-8
New York ― IFC Center ― November 2-8
Columbus, Ohio ― Gateway Film Center ― November 2-8
Austin ― Alamo Mueller ― November 2-8
San Antonio ― Alamo North Park ― November 2-8
Dallas ― Alamo Lake Highlands ― November 2-8
Denver ― Alamo Sloane ― November 2-8
Ann Arbor, Michigan ― Michigan Theater ― November 2-8
Portland, Oregon ― Hollywood Theatre ― November 2-8
San Francisco ― Roxie Theater― November 2-4
Chicago― The Music Box ― November 3-4
Cleveland - Cleveland Cinematheque― November 3-5

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I'm pretty hyped from this based on the premise but I don't think my bladder would hold out during a 4 hour screening which sucks. My gameplan is to netflix it on the 2nd and then catch When I'm Dead at IFC instead next week. If there was an intermission like Lawrence then sure, but I'd rather not miss a part of it and my setup at home is basically made for films (60 inch plasma/5.1)...

e: wait, ifc keeps changing the runtime, now they have it listed at 362 minutes, which would be 6 hours??

e: I called the theater and it's 2hrs and 10min..and it's only showing on 35mm for 3 showtimes, of which I'm working during all 3. I guess netflix it is

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


It's up now, along with They'll Love Me When I'm Dead and Final Cut for Orson.

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Radio Spiricom
Aug 17, 2009



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Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



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The reconstructed footage alone is amazing, plus the rest is just a great doc.

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Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



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It's up now, along with They'll Love Me When I'm Dead and Final Cut for Orson.
Are you sure Final Cut for Orson is on there? I'm looking to add it to my list to watch after the movie itself and the other doc, but its not even coming up on search for me.

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


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Are you sure Final Cut for Orson is on there? I'm looking to add it to my list to watch after the movie itself and the other doc, but its not even coming up on search for me.

Final Cut for Orson is under "Trailers and More" for The Other Side of the Wind while They'll Love Me When I'm Dead is under "More Like This"

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Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012


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Final Cut for Orson is under "Trailers and More" for The Other Side of the Wind while They'll Love Me When I'm Dead is under "More Like This"

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Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



Holy hell, what a movie. It's like if Kane got filtered through F for Fake. News on the March on crack. I don't even know where to begin.

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Final Cut for Orson is under "Trailers and More" for The Other Side of the Wind while They'll Love Me When I'm Dead is under "More Like This"
That was a bizarre place to hide Final Cut for Orson but thanks for helping me find it. It's a really good little mini-doc.

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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011


Yeah it was pretty intense, cool how he was able to mix satire and tragedy.

The documentary is great too, can't believe how they completed all of Bogdanovich's scenes with another actor first before that guy had to leave. I think Bogdanovich does a better job, his acting has a lot more nuance to it.

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Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



I really liked in They'll Love Me When I'm Dead when at the end they intercut between footage of Other Side, Jaws, Star Wars, and archival footage of the Iranian Revolution. Real inspired bit right there.

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


I found this to be an invigorating, hypnotic puzzle of a film. The way that it effortlessly jumps between characters and the film within the film. I kept thinking of the party being kin to the restaurant scene (or rather, act) in Tati's Playtime in that it keeps up energy for such a sustained amount of time. All while you feel exhausted. Because the characters are. Much of the film resembles a live play in that regard.

Some parts I had a huge smile on my face. Only negative thing I can think of is that it drags a little near the end, but it's also when everyone's drunk and already bitter. Maybe they should have put in a shot of a parrot screeching.

This was absolutely worth the wait. Also watched Final Cut for Orson, which has some neat stuff like Danny Huston doing overdubs for his father.


Only nitpick I can make is that the opening/closing credits are overly conventional. Given that Welles enjoyed unconventional approaches like putting them at the end or even narrating them, it just comes off as lazy.

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Spatulater bro!
Aug 19, 2003



Egbert, glad to see you loved the film. I'm excited to watch it.

Roughly what percentage of the film was completed by Welles?

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


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Egbert, glad to see you loved the film. I'm excited to watch it.

Roughly what percentage of the film was completed by Welles?

I'm going to watch They'll Love Me When I'm Dead in a bit, but according to A Final Cut for Orson... he shot pretty much 99% of the finished film and edited about 45 minutes worth of material. Most of the film within the film was all him, plus a few short bits of the party (the bit that appears in One Man Band).

The only visuals he didn't shoot were shots of the dummies getting blasted and some process shots. ILM did the former by using existing footage and shooting re-creations of the dummies on greenscreen. The sound had a ton of work done on it, but it's absolutely consistent to use dubbing for lost audio considering Welles did that all the time. Final Cut has some footage of Danny Huston doing ADR for his father and it's scary how perfect it sounds.

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Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



Egbert what do you think the framing device they created using Otterlake?

Part of me wonders if they should have just gotten a Welles impersonator, though I feel like using Otterlake mostly works for that narration (It's kind of reminiscent of like, Bernstein in Kane to me too). Still bizarre to hear a character talking about cell phones in a Welles movie though.

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


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Egbert what do you think the framing device they created using Otterlake?

Part of me wonders if they should have just gotten a Welles impersonator, though I feel like using Otterlake mostly works for that narration (It's kind of reminiscent of like, Bernstein in Kane to me too). Still bizarre to hear a character talking about cell phones in a Welles movie though.

Now that I just watched They'll Love Me When I'm Dead, Welles seemed to be fine with the film changing as needed. He brings up the possibility that it could be edited to be about the making of the film, rather than the film itself.

My guess is that the original line was up to date as of the 70s, but it works in context.


Really, I think a brilliant idea would be to put up the raw footage up on something like YouTube for people to watch. It's worth noting that even films successfully completed and well-loved don't usually have the luxury of having nearly every frame shot and edited during the original production to survive. Can you imagine what film students could do with this footage in terms of learning the craft of editing?


The documentary was very good, though it's pretty depressing. I will say I wasn't expecting to actually seeing clips of the pornos Welles edited for Gary Graver.

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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011


I didn't realize how many of Welles film projects never saw the light of day.

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zandert33
Sep 20, 2002



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I didn't realize how many of Welles film projects never saw the light of day.

And the ones that did were mostly butchered by the studio. Tragic really.

Really enjoyed "The Other Side of the Wind", but think I need a few months and then a rewatch to let things sink in a bit. It's blowing my mind that I get to see a brand new Welles movie. Never thought it would ever happen.

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Egbert Souse
Nov 6, 2008

Well, it's alright to borrow from each other. What we must never do is borrow from ourselves.


I think an archive in Germany put together reconstructions of The Deep, The Merchant of Venice, and Moby Dick Rehearsed. There's clips from all his then-unfinished work in One Man Band, a documentary co-directed by Oja Kodar that's on the Criterion edition of F for Fake (in full HD on the Blu-ray, too). One thing I'm really happy about They'll Love Me When I'm Dead is how much footage it uses of F for Fake. I hope it gets more people interested in it since it's a fantastic movie.

Just rewatched Citizen Kane to "close the loop". Earlier this year, I had rewatched all of his films, inclusive of the multiple cuts of Macbeth, Othello, Touch of Evil, and Mr. Arkadin.

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Clouseau
Aug 3, 2003

My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie.

I just saw this on film in Chicago. Holy poo poo.

As said earlier in the thread, I'm going to have to revisit this one after a few months. There was a discussion afterwards with a dude who consulted a bit on the editing team, and aside from a variety of interesting anecdotes about all the arguments that the restoration team had on editing, I think my biggest takeaway was that he said to watch it with the subtitles on.

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Radio Spiricom
Aug 17, 2009



I watched this on Friday and I posted it elsewhere but I'll clean it up for here.

I guess I feel... conflicted. I've been anticipating it for almost half my life at this point, Welles was pivotal in my understanding of film and along with Hitchcock, Chaplin, and Ford the one of the first directors I was able to recognize by name. Part of me is glad that it's finally completed and is out in the world but part of me wishes that it could have stayed buried. Despite the fact that Welles said people could basically do whatever they wanted with the footage, it's hard for me to really see it as being what he envisioned... but that's always the case with reconstructed films, I always find them more interesting in theory than in practice. Bob Murawski tries his best to give it a similar rhythm to F For Fake, but I think he went overboard... maybe free porn asian massage too dense.

Some other stray thoughts:

- Despite Welles' protestations that the Hannaford character isn't meant to be a self-insert (and is meant to be modeled on directors like Ford, Walsh, and yes, Huston himself (and Huston like Welles (and Hitchcock and Ford)) is never the sexiest sex ever not himself) it 's almost impossible for me to not see him that way... and the casting of Huston was an incredibly canny choice, especially considering the similar fates of Red Badge of Courage and Ambersons.

- Murnau is invoked in the dialogue, but it also feels like the Hannaford character is meant to be a Murnau like figure too... killed in a car accident on his 70th birthday before completing his last film... Murnau died in a car accident a week before the opening of Tabu... plus the repeated insinuations of Hannaford's homosexuality and the pedophilic undertones of the character...

- The film within the film is completely egregious, and I'm completely unaware of whether it's meant to be parody / satire, pastiche, or homage because it so closely resembles the real McCoy (Zabriskie Point) but some of the sequences are to die for and it's a shame Welles didn't work in color more.

- Bogdanovich and Susan Strasberg are hilarious, and I loved seeing Claude Chabrol show up.


Anyway, it's another deeply personal and radical film in a career full of them and one of the most lacerating directorial self-portraits I've seen, up there with Vertigo, Every Man For Himself, and White Hunter Black Heart

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TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

It is a classic symbol of racism in America. This is where the white man has taken the black man and put him between two buns. And then dumped ketchup on him.


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- The film within the film is completely egregious, and I'm completely unaware of whether it's meant to be parody / satire, pastiche, or homage because it so closely resembles the real McCoy (Zabriskie Point) but some of the sequences are to die for and it's a shame Welles didn't work in color more.

It's very specifically spoofing European art films of the time, in particular Antonioni, with its aimlessness and overt sexuality. Also they shot all the party sequences at the actual house next door to the house that gets blown up in Zabriskie Point.

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Radio Spiricom
Aug 17, 2009



right, let me rephrase: i think that it is so accurate in its critique / satire / appraisal of those cinematic forms that it loses that element for me and becomes essentially indistinguishable from the real thing

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TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

It is a classic symbol of racism in America. This is where the white man has taken the black man and put him between two buns. And then dumped ketchup on him.


Oh, I getcha.

Yeah, that's a fair point and with Welles I think he himself frequently blurred that line between what was meant tongue-in-cheek and what was meant totally in earnest. I think he absolutely intended the film-within-the-film as a pastiche but he nevertheless had fun filming it and wanted to include some stark and shocking images. So it's a little column A a little column B in that regard.

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